Anybody already stopped watching Super?

[Doctor.]

I sure remember how Vegeta caught Goku right after the Tenkaichi Budokai and out of nowhere asked for a battle. Excellent characterization there about him moving on, no doubt. Vegeta NEVER moved on, the last line in the entire manga (in the Kanzenban release at least) is his, where he says "Someday I'll surpass you, Kakarotto".

[sintzu]

Some see all of this as "going back to the roots of the franchise.

When Gt went back to it's roots everyone threw it under the bus.

[Doctor.]

GT didn't go back to the franchise's roots. GT cut off the roots from the tree, put them on as a dress and started dancing around obnoxiously screaming "Do you guys love me yet?!". It doesn't rely sufficiently on its own ideas to succeed. Super returns to the same tone as the original series, but it doesn't directly rip-off ideas and concepts.

[Hellspawn28]

People talk about how much they hate gags in the series, but I bet that they will want them back if we ever got a dark and gritty series. Would you rather have a DB series with funny gags and humor or a series that is a dark and gritty tentacle rape hentai?

[sintzu]

People talk about how much they hate gags in the series, but I bet that they will want them back if we ever got a dark and gritty series. Would you rather have a DB series with funny gags and humor or a series that is a dark and gritty tentacle rape hentai?

We want it to have Z's tone.

[Doctor.]

What is Z's tone? All of the arcs had very different tones. Super has exactly the same tone as the Boo arc: lighter at the beginning (BoG arc/Saiyaman through Fat Boo), and then it got progressively more serious but still keeping a relatively light tone (F arc/Super Boo-Kid Boo stuff).

[fadeddreams5]

I sure remember how Vegeta caught Goku right after the Tenkaichi Budokai and out of nowhere asked for a battle. Excellent characterization there about him moving on, no doubt.

Of course he never moved on. It's always in his mind, and he still craves a good battle as a saiyan. But he doesn't dedicate his entire life to beating Goku, lower himself, and/or follow Goku to his training camps so he can match him either.

People talk about how much they hate gags in the series, but I bet that they will want them back if we ever got a dark and gritty series. Would you rather have a DB series with funny gags and humor or a series that is a dark and gritty tentacle rape hentai?

If we're talking preference, I would much prefer a well executed DB series with a dark or more mature tone over an unfunny gag-filled mess like Super. I mean, Digimon's doing it. Digimon!

That said, all I personally want is a return to the early DBZ roots. Saiyan-Cell sagas. You can add the Piccolo jr arc in there too.

What is Z's tone? All of the arcs had very different tones. Super has exactly the same tone as the Boo arc: lighter at the beginning (BoG arc/Saiyaman through Fat Boo), and then it got progressively more serious but still keeping a relatively light tone (F arc/Super Boo-Kid Boo stuff).

Super does not have the same tone as the Buu saga. Well, maybe the Great Saiyaman and Super Buu arcs. The latter being the weakest point in all of DBZ, imo. The Great Saiyaman arc was funny and neat for what it was, but also not what I look forward to from an entire series (i.e. slice of life).

The Saiyan-Cell sagas were pretty consistent in tone, though it gradually turned darker.

[Doctor.]

Of course he never moved on. It's always in his mind, and he still craves a good battle as a saiyan. But he doesn't dedicate his entire life to beating Goku, lower himself, and/or follow Goku to his training camps so he can match him either.

Gaining a new form through artificial means would be something I'd consider "lowering" himself, at least for Vegeta. Vegeta lives to become strong, he's just that kind of character. Sure he has other priorities in his life now (and he never ignored his family in Super), but he would NEVER give up training, EVER; that's completely out of character. He didn't follow Goku either, Goku was the one who followed him.

Super does not have the same tone as the Buu saga. Well, maybe the Great Saiyaman and Super Buu arcs. The latter being the weakest point in all of DBZ, imo. The Great Saiyaman arc was funny and neat for what it was, but also not what I look forward to from an entire series (i.e. slice of life).

The Saiyan-Cell sagas were pretty consistent in tone, though it gradually turned darker.

It has EXACTLY the same tone. I don't see how it's any different besides some censorship when it comes to the wounds. The entire Boo arc was trash (and it's still not the worst arc in the series, that award goes to the Cell arc), so it's not just because one portion of the arc is comedic that it's bad. The Saiyan-Cell arcs had a pretty consistent tone, but evidently Toriyama doesn't enjoy writing such stories, since he gave the Boo arc a lighter tone and Super as well; the man's a gag manga artist, always has been, always will be. Having a lighter tone doesn't inherently mean that the story will be bad, Super's issues don't come from its tone at all.

I don't care for what tone the series chooses to have as long as it's good. The tone does not influence its quality in any big way.

[Soppa Saia People]

About the tone
I want it know to when to be serious. A guy who can end the earth shouldn't be a joke

[fadeddreams5]

Gaining a new form through artificial means would be something I'd consider "lowering" himself, at least for Vegeta. Vegeta lives to become strong, he's just that kind of character. Sure he has other priorities in his life now (and he never ignored his family in Super), but he would NEVER give up training, EVER; that's completely out of character. He didn't follow Goku either, Goku was the one who followed him.

He didn't gain the form through artificial means. Vegeta still needed to retain control while in his golden ape form. The waves only allowed him to reach that mode without his tail.

Of course Vegeta lives to become stronger and always trains, but Super overemphasizes his obsession with surpassing Goku, as well as Goku's natural superiority, creating gag after gag over it. It's not something I find OOC, but I don't like the overall direction they've gone with the character. He's goofier and more submissive. He also acts gwumpy around his family. Before, he was a cold asshole to them, but I'd like to see him warming up in a more mature fashion, as GT Vegeta did.

Wasn't it the other way around in F (Vegeta followed Goku)? Eh.

It has EXACTLY the same tone. I don't see how it's any different besides some censorship when it comes to the wounds. The entire Boo arc was trash (and it's still not the worst arc in the series, that award goes to the Cell arc), so it's not just because one portion of the arc is comedic that it's bad. The Saiyan-Cell arcs had a pretty consistent tone, but evidently Toriyama doesn't enjoy writing such stories, since he gave the Boo arc a lighter tone and Super as well; the man's a gag manga artist, always has been, always will be. Having a lighter tone doesn't inherently mean that the story will be bad, Super's issues don't come from its tone at all.

I don't care for what tone the series chooses to have as long as it's good. The tone does not influence its quality in any big way.

No it doesn't, besides the two arcs I mentioned. The Babidi arc was pretty dark, and Fat Buu was actually pretty damn terrifying. Then there's the whole Majin Vegeta business. Later, we find out Fat Buu isn't that bad, thanks to Mr. Satan, but what happens in these chapters? Two bad guys gun down an elderly couple, later kill Buu's dog, and shoot Mr. Satan. Buu goes nuts, his evil splits from him, and the two bad guys are brutally murdered. Soon after, Buu commits genocide. The fusion arc is when things become anything like Super with gags galore. Gotenks is unbearable, but at least Vegito made me chuckle. The Kid Buu arc returns to a serious tone, even while Goku plays to Buu's antics (e.g. biting), and is the best part of the saga, imo.

Tone does influence the quality of the story for the reason mentioned above: it needs to learn when to consistently take itself seriously! If there's something fans almost unanimously hated, it's the Mr. Satan cuts during the Cell Games. If you set a certain tone, be consistent; know where and when it's appropriate to place comedy. Even with Frieza in the picture, Super tries to force gags into every single situation (see: Jaco, Bulma, and Beerus). This kills the mood entirely, and most of the time, it's not funny.

If this was a spin-off comedy series, I wouldn't have any gripe with how light-hearted it is, but to sell itself as a sequel and be very unlike the series that catapulted this franchise to mainstream popularity?

[Doctor.]

He didn't gain the form through artificial means. Vegeta still needed to retain control while in his golden ape form. The waves only allowed him to reach that mode without his tail.

And that's basically an artificial transformation, just like that power sphere back in the Saiyan arc that Vegeta said he hated using. He's not lowering himself as much as he (reasonably) did for Beerus, or for Whis, but he still did something that he despises doing, and that is gaining power with help.

Of course Vegeta lives to become stronger and always trains, but Super overemphasizes his obsession with surpassing Goku, as well as Goku's natural superiority, creating gag after gag over it. It's not something I find OOC, but I don't like the overall direction they've gone with the character. He's goofier and more submissive. He also acts gwumpy around his family. Before, he was a cold asshole to them, but I'd like to see him warming up in a more mature fashion, as GT Vegeta did.

That's kinda wrong, to be honest. Super has been hinting at Vegeta being the stronger of the two ever since he went to train with Whis. Doubled weights, Vegeta training while Goku's sleeping, Goku himself saying that Vegeta may be stronger, Goku not being able to keep up with Vegeta in the recent episode and, in the preview for the next episode, Goku looks knocked out while Vegeta carries him. He already warmed up; if he didn't, he wouldn't have done something as pointless (to him) as going to a resort with Bulma and Trunks.

Again, Vegeta's not the type of character who'll EVER stop trying to get stronger or stop trying to get stronger than Goku specifically. You could call it OOC-ness or flanderization if this was a recent thing, but Toriyama went as far as to give him that "I'll surpass you Kakarotto" line at the end of the Kanzenban release more than a whole decade ago; it's obviously something that the author himself has always intended for the character.

Wasn't it the other way around in F (Vegeta followed Goku)? Eh.

Yeah, but we're talking about Super here.

And the least we talk about F, the better.

No it doesn't, besides the two arcs I mentioned. The Babidi arc was pretty dark, and Fat Buu was actually pretty damn terrifying. Then there's the whole Majin Vegeta business. Later, we find out Fat Buu isn't that bad, thanks to Mr. Satan, but what happens in these chapters? Two bad guys gun down an elderly couple, later kill Buu's dog, and shoot Mr. Satan. Buu goes nuts, his evil splits from him, and the two bad guys are brutally murdered. Soon after, Buu commits genocide. The fusion arc is when things become anything like Super with gags galore. Gotenks is unbearable, but at least Vegito made me chuckle. The Kid Buu arc returns to a serious tone, even while Goku plays to Buu's antics (e.g. biting), and is the best part of the saga, imo.

It's still a light-hearted arc, you can call it a dark comedy at best, but what you're saying is basically me saying that Super has a serious tone because Beerus kills random aliens and both him and Freeza have tortured people on screen. Most of the stuff in the Boo arc is played for laughs. Saiyaman? Comedy. The fight on Babidi's ship? Comedy. Fat Boo's appearance and way of speaking? Comedy. Fusion? Comedy. Kid Boo himself is a big joke. Saying that it's oh so serious because of a couple of on-screen deaths is something that could EASILY be applied to Super as well.

Tone does influence the quality of the story for the reason mentioned above: it needs to learn when to consistently take itself seriously!

Tone doesn't matter. The Red Rebbon Army is a light-hearted arc and it's excellent. F is a serious film and it's shit.

If there's something fans almost unanimously hated, it's the Mr. Satan cuts during the Cell Games. If you set a certain tone, be consistent; know where and when it's appropriate to place comedy. Even with Freeza in the picture, Super tries to force gags into every single situation (see: Jaco, Bulma, and Beerus). This kills the mood entirely, and most of the time, it's not funny.

What you're talking about here isn't tone, it's about comic relief and its execution. That's an entirely different matter. Is the comic relief in Super bad? Well maybe, to you. But you're overreacting on how prominent it is. When Goku was fighting Freeza in F, did you see him suddenly step in poop? No, of course not. Besides some cutaways to Beerus and Whis for exposition and comic relief, the Goku vs Freeza fight was treated as something 100% serious with no comedic scenes between the two characters.

If this was a spin-off comedy series, I wouldn't have any gripe with how light-hearted it is, but to sell itself as a sequel and be very unlike the series that catapulted this franchise to mainstream popularity?

And like I said, it has the exact same tone as the Boo arc.

[fadeddreams5]

And that's basically an artificial transformation, just like that power sphere back in the Saiyan arc that Vegeta said he hated using. He's not lowering himself as much as he (reasonably) did for Beerus, or for Whis, but he still did something that he despises doing, and that is gaining power with help.

He hated using that sphere because it was basically a last resort needed when he felt he couldn't beat someone using his base power. Using the blutz wave, he could tap into SSJ4 power using his own will.

That's kinda wrong, to be honest. Super has been hinting at Vegeta being the stronger of the two ever since he went to train with Whis. Doubled weights, Vegeta training while Goku's sleeping, Goku himself saying that Vegeta may be stronger, Goku not being able to keep up with Vegeta in the recent episode and, in the preview for the next episode, Goku looks knocked out while Vegeta carries him. He already warmed up; if he didn't, he wouldn't have done something as pointless (to him) as going to a resort with Bulma and Trunks.

Again, Vegeta's not the type of character who'll EVER stop trying to get stronger or stop trying to get stronger than Goku specifically. You could call it OOC-ness or flanderization if this was a recent thing, but Toriyama went as far as to give him that "I'll surpass you Kakarotto" line at the end of the Kanzenban release more than a whole decade ago; it's obviously something that the author himself has always intended for the character.

He's implied to be stronger than a god-tier Goku after a year of training, despite never reaching SSJ3. That's even worse. By warming up, I mean be a tad more expressive towards them, instead of this "HMPH" business. It's childish.

Wasn't the Kanzenban ending criticized for that? I'd like Vegeta to surpass Goku by his own merits, but his obsession should have stopped after the Buu saga. That's not to say he should've stopped training or being competitive with Goku, but I do feel they've overemphasized this desire too much in Super. Vegeta couldn't stop thinking about "Kakarot" while he was in that resort...

It's still a light-hearted arc, you can call it a dark comedy at best, but what you're saying is basically me saying that Super has a serious tone because Beerus kills random aliens and both him and Freeza have tortured people on screen. Most of the stuff in the Boo arc is played for laughs. Saiyaman? Comedy. The fight on Babidi's ship? Comedy. Fat Boo's appearance and way of speaking? Comedy. Fusion? Comedy. Kid Boo himself is a big joke. Saying that it's oh so serious because of a couple of on-screen deaths is something that could EASILY be applied to Super as well.

There's a difference between cold-heartedly shooting down an innocent old couple and blowing up a planet filled with cute cartoon aliens (off-screen at this point). There's a difference between Frieza ordering for the death of humanoid children on-screen and blowing up the Earth while everyone is virtually off-screen. Likewise, there's a distinction between the murders Bardock commits in his special and the big "scary" monsters he kills in Minus. This isn't about deaths, but the tone set by who is killed, how, and why.

If you can't see the difference between the time Frieza pierced through Piccolo's torso with a death beam (before Goku goes SSJ) and the moment Tagoma pierced through Gohan, there's not much I can say, but they create a distinctive mood for me. =P

Also, I don't see the fight on Babidi's ship as comedy (besides the Janken thing). Fat Buu may have been designed the way he was for the sake of comedy, but the minute we saw his actions, he became a frightening beast.

What you're talking about here isn't tone, it's about comic relief and its execution. That's an entirely different matter. Is the comic relief in Super bad? Well maybe, to you. But you're overreacting on how prominent it is. When Goku was fighting Freeza in F, did you see him suddenly step in poop? No, of course not. Besides some cutaways to Beerus and Whis for exposition and comic relief, the Goku vs Freeza fight was treated as something 100% serious with no comedic scenes between the two characters.

What I'm talking about is how they do everything possible to kill the mood when it gets a bit too dark. They set a tone in a scene, but can't consistently maintain it without creating some sort of gag that takes me away from it. This might have to do with comic relief and execution, but not even the Buu saga was like this. It had a significantly more serious tone.

[Draconic]

Frieza torturing Tagoma physically and mentally to the point the guy becomes a cold blooded murderer is much darker than anything in the Buu Arc. And if it wasn't for Imperfect Cell drinking people, it would be darker than anything in the Cell Arc too. The darkest point, for me, is on Namek when Frieza is killing powerless children on-screen, but you could argue breaking someone's body and spirit daily for 4 months is even worse. And Tagoma's turning is not played for laughs, since, for now at least, he is built up as a huge threat.

Add blood to the recent episodes of Super (and from what we can guess from FnF the later ones) and it becomes a gory and desperate story, fitting of it's main villain. Till the end when Frieza starts losing power, at least. Though we don't know how Vegeta vs Frieza will turn out, since if it will be a reversal of the roles from Namek, even that will be pretty darn cruel. And judging from the fact Super is not afraid to go there (albeit not to the same extent) it is plausible to happen.

[Doctor.]

He hated using that sphere because it was basically a last resort needed when he felt he couldn't beat someone using his base power. Using the blutz wave, he could tap into SSJ4 power using his own will.

I don't get what you're arguing here. I was arguing that both GT and Super Vegeta lowered themselves to achieve a greater power, and that's good for their characters.

He's implied to be stronger than a god-tier Goku after a year of training, despite never reaching SSJ3. That's even worse. By warming up, I mean be a tad more expressive towards them, instead of this "HMPH" business. It's childish.

Wasn't the Kanzenban ending criticized for that? I'd like Vegeta to surpass Goku by his own merits, but his obsession should have stopped after the Buu saga. That's not to say he should've stopped training or being competitive with Goku, but I do feel they've overemphasized this desire too much in Super. Vegeta couldn't stop thinking about "Kakarot" while he was in that resort...

Ridiculous boosts have always been present in the manga. Anyway, we were talking about Vegeta's characterization, so I'm not sure what that aspect has anything to do with it. And, like I said, he has already warmed up, because if he didn't, he wouldn't have gone with them in the first place! The "hmph" business is Vegeta being tsundere as usual, he's like that with everyone he likes, this isn't something new.

If you can't see the difference between the time Freeza pierced through Piccolo's torso with a death beam (before Goku goes SSJ) and the moment Tagoma pierced through Gohan, there's not much I can say, but they create a distinctive mood for me. =P

You can't compare those two scenes. Freeza came back when everyone thought he was dead, the shock effect was much, much greater.

What I'm talking about is how they do everything possible to kill the mood when it gets a bit too dark. They set a tone in a scene, but can't consistently maintain it without creating some sort of gag that takes me away from it. This might have to do with comic relief and execution, but not even the Buu saga was like this. It had a significantly more serious tone.

But that's for you. Every fight (or at least most of them) in the series has had some comedic moments. Goku biting Freeza is comic relief. Oh, it doesn't kill the mood for you? It may kill the mood for someone else though. What you're arguing here is that Super is overabundant with comic relief, and I think that's just not true. Did you see Vegeta fart when he was getting his head stepped on by Beerus? Did everyone suddenly burst out laughing when Tagoma shot a blast through Gohan's chest? No. The only time comic relief happens in the series is when nothing relevant is happening.

I think your complaints come mainly from the Beerus vs Goku fight being too childish for your taste, but that's just a case of you not understanding the fight's meaning more than anything else. The Goku vs Freeza fight isn't going to be full of comedic headbutts and childish taunts.

[Hellspawn28]

ROF was serious while still having a good amount of humor in it. It Saiyan saga and Namek saga were serious, but still had it's comedy moments. The tone in ROF didn't feel much different if you ask me.

[Tsufuru]

isnt super based on the movies?

so i dont see anything wrong.
just like BoG , super had more comedy than serios shit.
just like RoF, super got darker.

also what kind of dark tone you want?
if its something like naruto moments or someshit than hell to the NOoooooooooo!

[UpFromTheSkies]

People talk about how much they hate gags in the series, but I bet that they will want them back if we ever got a dark and gritty series. Would you rather have a DB series with funny gags and humor or a series that is a dark and gritty tentacle rape hentai?

We want it to have Z's tone.

Z had some serious moments in it, but just like Super, it's not very serious overall. The characters are named after vegetables, dairy products, underwear, and Disney songs, their attacks are almost always accompanied by silly poses and must have names that are shouted out loud before being executed, and the training episodes were all comedic except for during the Cell games.

[Big Momma]

Weight training and sparring becomes a joke when they both reach a ludicrous power level simply by doing so. It's no different from what Goku did in the past.

And chasing Bubbles in a planet with 10x gravity was both funny and made sense within the context of the story.

As for the Roshi training, it was silly. But that first season of Dragon Ball was pretty much entirely goofy. Things changed. Some see all of this as "going back to the roots of the franchise," but I see it as regressing.

It was just weight training and sparring. Whis is using these things to teach Goku and Vegeta how to better control their Ki and how to use it in a different way. I think all of this makes sense just fine with in the context of Super. And I loved the beginning of Dragon Ball. And I'm glad we're getting a series that is more on the "goofy" and light-hearted side than the serious side. I don't see it as regressing at all.

And, with that said I would definitely think it would be in character for Vegeta to wear such a thing if it meant obtaining the power of a god.

Vegeta doesn't give two ****s about god powers in Super. All he cares about is surpassing Goku, which in itself is meaningless and feels forced at this point in the story. Back then, he deluded himself into believing he was superior, and did everything he could to prove himself right; it was his rightful place to be #1 in his eyes, as the prince of all saiyans. Nowadays, he just craves this superiority because... it's what fans remember most about him! He's nothing more than a caricature of what he used to be. GT got it right by having him divert his attention away from Goku during the time gap and assimilate into a human lifestyle. You know, until he finally obtained a glimmer of hope of being able to be more than a witness of "Kakarot's" greatness. It wasn't a priority, nor something he'd lower himself for, but that desire to reach Goku's level of strength was always inside him.

Even if it's about surpassing Goku and not God powers, the point still stands. A caricature? Super has been putting about as much, if not less, emphasis on Vegeta wanting to surpass/not get left behind by Goku as Z did. But at least this time around we're seeing him actually spend time with his family (albeit begrudgingly) and even show care for them like when Beerus smacked Bulma.

[fadeddreams5]

I don't get what you're arguing here. I was arguing that both GT and Super Vegeta lowered themselves to achieve a greater power, and that's good for their characters.

I'm saying Vegeta didn't really lower himself in GT.

Ridiculous boosts have always been present in the manga. Anyway, we were talking about Vegeta's characterization, so I'm not sure what that aspect has anything to do with it. And, like I said, he has already warmed up, because if he didn't, he wouldn't have gone with them in the first place! The "hmph" business is Vegeta being tsundere as usual, he's like that with everyone he likes, this isn't something new.

This boost in Super made all the ones in DBZ minuscule by comparison, as well as cheapened this SSJG thing, which was lame to begin with.

By warming up, I'm referring to his demeanor towards them. As in, that "tsundere" thing. It's one thing to be reserved, like Piccolo, but the way he's portrayed really is a little childish.

You can't compare those two scenes. Freeza came back when everyone thought he was dead, the shock effect was much, much greater.

The shock effect was actually greater in Super because the episode preview in DBZ spoiled Frieza's return. Another scene to compare would be the one where Frieza kills Dende. Case in point, Super didn't attempt to evoke any sort of emotion in that scene. It just sort of happened, and then Piccolo instantly resuscitated him...

Goku biting Freeza is comic relief. Oh, it doesn't kill the mood for you? It may kill the mood for someone else though.

It was a one second scene that perfectly subverted any expectations. When you actually expect this to happen at any time, it's not funny. In Super, I expect it all the time.

Did you see Vegeta fart when he was getting his head stepped on by Beerus? Did everyone suddenly burst out laughing when Tagoma shot a blast through Gohan's chest? No.

lol. See, this would actually be funny.

The only time comic relief happens in the series is when nothing relevant is happening.

That's because nothing relevant ever happens in this series!

I think your complaints come mainly from the Beerus vs Goku fight being too childish for your taste, but that's just a case of you not understanding the fight's meaning more than anything else.

The fight's meaning is the same as the one in BoG, which was supremely better, and had less or no idiocy cutting off the drama.

The Goku vs Freeza fight isn't going to be full of comedic headbutts and childish taunts.

Ima quote you when that fight happens. =P

[sintzu]

Super has exactly the same tone as the Boo arc.

Did Super have a normal girl get beaten to an inch of her life ? Did Super have an old couple get shot to death ? Did Super have a dog nearly die from getting shot at ? Did Super have a tournament guy's head explode ? Did Super have someone get his head punched off ? Didn't think so cause all it does is turn every scene into an unfunny gag.