Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Freeza?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Kaioshin wanted their help to fight Bobbidi, actually. That was stated.

Kaioshin doesn't even know who Bobbidi has with him, which is why he said Dabra's appearance made things difficult. The Daizenshuu does say Kaioshin fears Yakon, but he wasn't scared of Pui-Pui. That explains why he ignored Pui-Pui when he first saw him.

[Hitiro]

Two different statements. I'm reading them literally as they are and as a matter of fact, one statement is factually wrong.

Unless you have trouble grasping English then there is no reason to assume that these two lines are unrelated. You're basically telling me Beerus said something akin to "It seems you've been working out. Do you want fries with that?" Now I've obviously exaggerated this for you to understand the point. But you can see how disjointed the sentence becomes if he starts talking about something irrelevant to what he was originally talking about. There is no reason for him to mention strength in the second sentence if it had no bearing on the first.

So let's examine the statemenet PURELY on its own merits. Can you prove what power Beers was referring to? Was Goku suppressed or at full power? Until you can prove one way or another, purely on the statement's merits alone, the evidence is thin and assumption based. That's what's important honestly. The merits of the statement is the only thing you should be looking at not the presence or absence of other statements that may or may not exist.

Again, there is no reason to assume he was on about a suppressed Goku. Because there would be no reason in giving that statement to the audience. You and I both know that a suppressed Goku could lose to Freeza if he was suppressed enough if Goku's base power was above Freeza's. This sentence would serve no purpose. It would be like Vegeta appearing on the screen and saying "My kid is Trunks." to Goku. Everyone and their mother knows Trunks is his kid at this point. So why even bother saying it? Furthermore as I've already stated Kaboom has already given us copious amounts of evidence to prove he isn't suppressed. Because the story has always established that a character has been suppressed, if they were, when a power comparison is made. You say the evidence is thin and assumption based. Kaboom gave 12 examples of what I'm saying. So no, it isn't thin. And it isn't an assumption either. Because these lines and scenarios actually happened. Unless you're going to tell me that every one of Kaboom's examples of suppression being explicitly stated in some form or another when a power comparison is made are made up scenarios and lines?

That's exactly what Beers said though. He said Goku doesn't have the ability to beat Freeza. Goku, factually, does have the ability to beat Freeza. The word from the translation is 'able' which is the same thing. Moreoer you're equating your interpretation with fact. I'm not ignoring facts. I'm ignoring your interpretation. From day one I always stated the sequence was just an excuse to make Goku turn SSJ and fight Beers. I'm not forcing you to accept that interpretation. Likewise your interpretation is your own. I'm talking facts. One statement of Beers is wrong. That's a fact. No amount of contradiction will make that statement true. That's also a fact.

Able and ability may share the same root in English but they are less clear cut than what you make them out to be. Being able to do something is a quantitative word that has a clear yes or no meaning. There are no varying degrees to being able to do something. You either can or you can't. Ability is a much broader word in that it is a qualitative word. For instance. Just because Goku has the ability to defeat Freeza with Kienzan doesn't mean that he is able to. If he throws the attack and it missed then Freeza gets up in his face and blows his head off then he wasn't able to beat Freeza. But he certainly had the ability to beat Freeza given the right circumstances. So no. Factually if Beerus is on about Goku being able to beat Freeza with his current power then there is nothing wrong with his statement if it is true. And no. Beerus was going to leave Kaio's world to talk to Vegeta about SSJGod. Beerus was only interested in SSJGod. Not SSJ. To say something like this sequence was an excuse to make Goku turn SSJ and fight Beerus would mean you have to ignore the blatant statement from Beerus about Goku being weird for wanting to spar or what sparring is. The whole scene was set up to show that Beerus had no other interest in the Saiyan's other than finding SSJGod. Furthermore given Beerus' personality if he wanted to fight Goku's SSJ forms he would have come out and said it. Like he did when he said he wanted to fight SSJGod.

I mean you can emphasize it as much as you want. That doesn't change the fact that Beerus never says Goku lacks the ability to do it. Merely the strength. So this debunks nothing.

Ability is the noun form of able. You literally have no grounds at all for complaining about my use of the word ability. It's the same word.

Again, as you'll see above. Having the ability to do something and being able are two different things in the terms of English. Giving another example Freeza had the ability to beat Goku back on Namek. He could have blown up the planet. He could have gotten lucky and cut him in half with his variation of the Kienzan. He could have grabbed him and flown him into the vacuum of space. But while all of these fall under him having the ability to beat Goku that doesn't mean he was able to beat Goku. As we saw Goku won the fight. So Freeza was unable to beat Goku. Does that mean Freeza didn't have the ability to beat Goku? No. Of course he had the ability to beat Goku. So if you're going to bring in something like ability and able being the same thing please look into what nouns and adjectives are a little more.

This isn't how burden of proof works. You are making the claim that Beers is referring to something. Thus you have the burden of proof to prove it. So can you prove Goku wasn't suppressed? Telling me I have to disprove your claim is the fallacy of shifting the burden of proof. You're literally just assuming you're right then telling me to disprove you. That's a logical fallacy. You have to prove Goku wasn't suppressed first because you're claiming that Beers is measuring Goku's full power.

The burden of proof falls onto the person with the argument that has the least merit. As far as I'm aware that is you. As I pointed out above Kaboom has provided all the evidence needed to prove that Goku wasn't suppressed. Furthermore I also provided evidence that the characters don't suppress in their daily lives. Not that I should need to provide that because it was just an assumption you made any way without any basis. And then you ask me to prove that you're wrong when you haven't even proved your own argument? It's not so much shifting the burden of proof as directing at at the person who needs to contribute proof for a change. Because you've either ignored evidence and continued to say that we haven't provided evidence or just provide assumptions without any backing in the story. Like the "Goku is suppressed in everyday life."

Also those two statements don't have to be equivalent. Turning SSJ is a subset of all of Goku's total abilities. It's also the only ability of Goku that Beers knows about. Oh and it's ALSO the ability that sounds like the SSG that he's looking for. So first Beers is talking about abilities in general. Then SS specifically because SSG is what he's looking for. Or if you don't like that then don't believe it. It's all interpretation. I won't force you to think like me like you can't force me to think like you. It's all about what we can both prove and I can prove that Beers statement is proveably false.

The statements do have to be equivalent otherwise it isn't even a structured talk any more. I already pointed out up above that the sentences would become disjointed if they didn't link to each other. And no, I'm not even forcing you to think like me. I'm just pointing out how roundabout your argument is because you are the one ignore evidence and statements here. Not me. And no. He talks about power/strength in the second statement. "You gain power by becoming Super Saiyan." Likewise why would he disjoint his conversation by talking about abilities in the first part and and power in the second part? Not that the first statement has anything to do with abilities. Because being able to do something does not mean abilities in this regard. The first statement merely points to Beerus stating whether Goku can or can't do something.

So we can't trust the judgements of a magical demon but we can trust the judgements of a magical cat. That's a double standard. I'm also not making any assumptions on this at all. I'm just pointing out what Dabura states. I'm not even saying it's a good judgement because I can't prove what he was measuring. By contrast you're assuming that you know what Beers was measuring with no proof. I'm sorry but that's a blatant double standard. You're complaining about Dabura's statement even though you have just as little proof with Beers statement. That's confirmation bias. You assume you know what Beers is talking about so you expect everyone else to prove you wrong. You assume Dabura is wrong so you expect everyone else to prove him right. That's not how it works. We treat both of them the same since there's no preferential treatment here. If you tell me I have to prove Dabura's statements then you do the same with Beers. No shifting of the burden of proof. Otherwise both statements are equal.

Magical cat? Are you talking about Karin? When is it ever established that he is a magical cat? The only thing that has been established is that Karin is an assistant sent from the afterlife to serve the Kami of Earth. Same with Popo. And frankly Karin's judgements haven't been wrong. Dabra's have, while he clearly judged that Goku and the other Saiyan's are superior to Piccolo via some method he was clearly wrong about how much power they possessed. Unless you're suggesting Beerus is the magical cat? In which case I ask you where is that established too? And no, I'm not assuming that I know what Beers was measuring. Just that he was measuring Goku's full power as there is proof that if Goku were suppressed in this scene we would have been told. And no, I don't assume Dabra was wrong. He was wrong. We see that in the chapters following that he has terrible judging abilities. How else would he believe that Yakon and Pui-Pui could beat the Saiyan's?

Moreover Kaio Shin can one shot Freeza. You keep ignoring that part. If he can one shot Freeza then he should be able to one shot Pui Pui and Yakon if they're weaker than Freeza too without the help of the Base Saiyans and eliminate any risk of giving Buu energy. Of course that's not what happened. Instead, Kaio Shin, wanted help against both, and base Saiyans could do what a guy who can one shot Freeza needed help against. Also Goku is a nice guy so he gives props to anyone who gets strong. He gives props to Kuririn and Piccolo for being strong too. That doesn't mean he wanted Krillin weighing him down against Vegeta in the Saiyan arc or Piccolo and Gohan against Freeza. Now contrast that with Kaio Shin. Goku wanted them to go away because they were too weak. Kaio Shin wanted their help against Pui Pui and Yakon and the base Saiyans could do that solo. See the difference there? Weaker than Freeza? Goku says to go home. That's the exact opposite of what happens here.

You say I keep ignoring that the Kaioshin can one shot Freeza. And I have already stated several times that just because Kaioshin can one shot Freeza doesn't mean he has good judgement on the characters. He misjudged Vegeta, despite seeing SSJ2 Gohan's power at the tournament. By a wide margin. So why would misjudging Pui-Pui and Yakon be out of the question? Trunks also misjudges Mr. Satan when he had to fight him. Are you going to tell me that Mr. Satan is actually really strong? Are you saying that Pui-Pui and Yakon are both superior to SSJ2 Gohan? Because Gohan would have had to become 100x weaker for them to be possibly stronger than him. The Kaioshin's estimations are all over the place here. So why take him seriously? He undoubtedly thought the Saiyan's were stronger than him with their SSJ forms. Also he thought they didn't amount to much without their transformations. He also just thought that the Henchmen were even greater than them. Like how Trunks thought that Mr. Satan was actually faking and was actually strong.

[Kaboom]

Yet again the discussion is going around in circles.

MisterGuyMan, despite all the words you keep posting, you have no argument to make. How many times does it have to be repeated or laid out? Despite how much you apparently want there to be, there is ZERO reason to doubt what Beerus said. Not in the movie, nor in either of the two other versions of the same scene, and every point from the Boo arc you've brought up can and has been easily explained away. There is NO indication that Beerus is wrong, and trying to fabricate one by piling on a half-dozen different "maybe" factors out of thin air is a pitiable waste of time.

So "maybe Goku was suppressed?" Yeah, and maybe that's not even really Goku either. Maybe that's a clone or a pod-person who took his place and is significantly weaker, and THAT'S why he's not stronger than Freeza. Oh, wait, or maybe the scene never really happened at all. Maybe Beerus is actually still asleep, and the new movies and all of Super thus far are just him dreaming. I mean, there's nothing present in any version of the story to even remotely suggest that either of those things are the case, but what does that matter? Unless we can prove this is the REAL Goku, or that Beerus isn't dreaming, then we'll never know for sure, right?

You don't HAVE to believe the line. You don't HAVE to place Boo-arc base Goku beneath 100% Freeza in your lists or charts or whatever. You don't HAVE to count Battle of Gods or Super or Toyotaro's manga as part of your personal canon if that one line ruins them for you. But don't insult people's intelligence by pulling this kind of "they're wrong unless you can prove them right" hogwash just because you simply don't like it.

[MisterGuyMan]

Kaioshin wanted their help to fight Bobbidi, actually. That was stated.

Kaioshin doesn't even know who Bobbidi has with him, which is why he said Dabra's appearance made things difficult. The Daizenshuu does say Kaioshin fears Yakon, but he wasn't scared of Pui-Pui. That explains why he ignored Pui-Pui when he first saw him.

Kaio Shin wanted all four of them to fight Pui Pui too. Moreover even if he was 'only' scared of Yakon, what does it say if base Goku was effortlessly toying with a guy that Kaio Shin, who can one shot Frieza, wanted help against?

Unless you have trouble grasping English then there is no reason to assume that these two lines are unrelated. You're basically telling me Beerus said something akin to "It seems you've been working out. Do you want fries with that?" Now I've obviously exaggerated this for you to understand the point. But you can see how disjointed the sentence becomes if he starts talking about something irrelevant to what he was originally talking about. There is no reason for him to mention strength in the second sentence if it had no bearing on the first.

They are related but not equivalent. That's why they're two sentences and not one sentence repeated twice. First Beers is talking about what Goku is or isn't able to do. Then he talks about one particular thing Goku is able to do. The first statement is proveably false. The second is true.

gain, there is no reason to assume he was on about a suppressed Goku. Because there would be no reason in giving that statement to the audience. You and I both know that a suppressed Goku could lose to Freeza if he was suppressed enough if Goku's base power was above Freeza's. This sentence would serve no purpose. It would be like Vegeta appearing on the screen and saying "My kid is Trunks." to Goku. Everyone and their mother knows Trunks is his kid at this point. So why even bother saying it? Furthermore as I've already stated Kaboom has already given us copious amounts of evidence to prove he isn't suppressed. Because the story has always established that a character has been suppressed, if they were, when a power comparison is made. You say the evidence is thin and assumption based. Kaboom gave 12 examples of what I'm saying. So no, it isn't thin. And it isn't an assumption either. Because these lines and scenarios actually happened. Unless you're going to tell me that every one of Kaboom's examples of suppression being explicitly stated in some form or another when a power comparison is made are made up scenarios and lines?

This isn't how evidence works with burden of proof. Your argument hinges on Goku being at full power. You can't prove he was at full power. Thus the crux of your argument cannot be proven. It's really that simple. Moreover the same exact thing you're talking about applies with Dabura. Of course you just handwave Dabura but allow yourself to make assumptions with Beers. That's a double standard.

Able and ability may share the same root in English but they are less clear cut than what you make them out to be. Being able to do something is a quantitative word that has a clear yes or no meaning. There are no varying degrees to being able to do something. You either can or you can't. Ability is a much broader word in that it is a qualitative word. For instance. Just because Goku has the ability to defeat Freeza with Kienzan doesn't mean that he is able to. If he throws the attack and it missed then Freeza gets up in his face and blows his head off then he wasn't able to beat Freeza. But he certainly had the ability to beat Freeza given the right circumstances. So no. Factually if Beerus is on about Goku being able to beat Freeza with his current power then there is nothing wrong with his statement if it is true. And no. Beerus was going to leave Kaio's world to talk to Vegeta about SSJGod. Beerus was only interested in SSJGod. Not SSJ. To say something like this sequence was an excuse to make Goku turn SSJ and fight Beerus would mean you have to ignore the blatant statement from Beerus about Goku being weird for wanting to spar or what sparring is. The whole scene was set up to show that Beerus had no other interest in the Saiyan's other than finding SSJGod. Furthermore given Beerus' personality if he wanted to fight Goku's SSJ forms he would have come out and said it. Like he did when he said he wanted to fight SSJGod....

...Again, as you'll see above. Having the ability to do something and being able are two different things in the terms of English. Giving another example Freeza had the ability to beat Goku back on Namek. He could have blown up the planet. He could have gotten lucky and cut him in half with his variation of the Kienzan. He could have grabbed him and flown him into the vacuum of space. But while all of these fall under him having the ability to beat Goku that doesn't mean he was able to beat Goku. As we saw Goku won the fight. So Freeza was unable to beat Goku. Does that mean Freeza didn't have the ability to beat Goku? No. Of course he had the ability to beat Goku. So if you're going to bring in something like ability and able being the same thing please look into what nouns and adjectives are a little more.

Let's simplify things. Is Goku ABLE to beat Frieza at base? Beers says he can't. As a matter of fact, Goku can. So what Beers says is wrong. I don't understand what the big issue is. Beers says Goku isn't able to do something. Goku is actually able to do it. What's the misunderstanding?

The burden of proof falls onto the person with the argument that has the least merit. As far as I'm aware that is you. As I pointed out above Kaboom has provided all the evidence needed to prove that Goku wasn't suppressed. Furthermore I also provided evidence that the characters don't suppress in their daily lives. Not that I should need to provide that because it was just an assumption you made any way without any basis. And then you ask me to prove that you're wrong when you haven't even proved your own argument? It's not so much shifting the burden of proof as directing at at the person who needs to contribute proof for a change. Because you've either ignored evidence and continued to say that we haven't provided evidence or just provide assumptions without any backing in the story. Like the "Goku is suppressed in everyday life."

Actually the Burden of Proof lies with the side that is making the claim. You're citing Beers' statement. Thus the burden of proof is on you. Do you understand that my argument doesn't revolve around Goku being suppressed or not? You claim Goku isn't suppressed. I claim he likely is. I'm not citing Beers statement as evidence so the burden of proof doesn't lie with me.

My argument lies on Vegeta's statements, Kaio Shin's statements and Dabura's statements.

The statements do have to be equivalent otherwise it isn't even a structured talk any more. I already pointed out up above that the sentences would become disjointed if they didn't link to each other. And no, I'm not even forcing you to think like me. I'm just pointing out how roundabout your argument is because you are the one ignore evidence and statements here. Not me. And no. He talks about power/strength in the second statement. "You gain power by becoming Super Saiyan." Likewise why would he disjoint his conversation by talking about abilities in the first part and and power in the second part? Not that the first statement has anything to do with abilities. Because being able to do something does not mean abilities in this regard. The first statement merely points to Beerus stating whether Goku can or can't do something.

You honestly need to stop insisting that your interpretation is the only plausible one. That's your argument. You see the scene one way and just insist that I must be wrong because I don't. That's an opinion that can't be proved and the only thing that matters is a debate is what you can prove. I already explained what I thought the scene flowed and it makes sense to me. You disagree. So what does that leave us? It leaves us with what we can factually prove. The facts are simple. Beers makes a statement that Goku can't do something. Beers' statement is wrong. Thus requiring a contradiction to disprove an already proven false it is logically fallacious.

Unless you're suggesting Beerus is the magical cat? In which case I ask you where is that established too? And no, I'm not assuming that I know what Beers was measuring. Just that he was measuring Goku's full power as there is proof that if Goku were suppressed in this scene we would have been told. And no, I don't assume Dabra was wrong. He was wrong. We see that in the chapters following that he has terrible judging abilities. How else would he believe that Yakon and Pui-Pui could beat the Saiyan's?

I was talking about Beers not Karrin. Also you're contradicting yourself here. First you insist Goku is always full powered. Here we see that Dabra is wrong because Goku was suppressed. So which is it? Moreover, you continue to mix up absence of evidence for evidence for absence. Who says we would have been told? Just because we're not told something doesn't mean it's false. Reread the Beers statement regarding that Goku isn't able to beat Frieza at base. That's wrong. Period. There's no getting around it. The ACTUAL words that are in the ACTUAL dialogue are false. I'm not referring to our unique perspectives. I'm talking about the pure unadulterated words that appear from Beers mouth. Those false words are never contradicted.

You say I keep ignoring that the Kaioshin can one shot Freeza. And I have already stated several times that just because Kaioshin can one shot Freeza doesn't mean he has good judgement on the characters. He misjudged Vegeta, despite seeing SSJ2 Gohan's power at the tournament. By a wide margin. So why would misjudging Pui-Pui and Yakon be out of the question? Trunks also misjudges Mr. Satan when he had to fight him. Are you going to tell me that Mr. Satan is actually really strong? Are you saying that Pui-Pui and Yakon are both superior to SSJ2 Gohan? Because Gohan would have had to become 100x weaker for them to be possibly stronger than him. The Kaioshin's estimations are all over the place here. So why take him seriously? He undoubtedly thought the Saiyan's were stronger than with their SSJ forms. He just thought that the Henchmen were even more so. Like how Trunks thought that Mr. Satan was actually faking and was actually strong.

And this is where I point out that you're conveniently arguing that three sources are conveniently always wrong and your single source is conveniently always right. So why was Kaio Shin wrong? Was it because Goku was suppressed? But you argue that Goku is never suppressed. How does that work? Finally we have Vegeta. He's the most knowledgable here and he believes base Saiyans are stronger than Frieza.

Yet again the discussion is going around in circles.

MisterGuyMan, despite all the words you keep posting, you have no argument to make. How many times does it have to be repeated or laid out? Despite how much you apparently want there to be, there is ZERO reason to doubt what Beerus said. Noot in the movie, nor in either of the two other versions of the same scene, and every point from the Boo arc you've brought up can and has been easily explained away. There is NO indication that Beerus is wrong, and trying to fabricate one by piling on a half-dozen different "maybe" factors out of thin air is a pitiable waste of time.

So "maybe Goku was suppressed?" Yeah, and maybe that's not even really Goku either. Maybe that's a clone or a pod-person who took his place and is significantly weaker, and THAT'S why he's not stronger than Freeza. Oh, wait, or maybe the scene never really happened at all. Maybe Beerus is actually still asleep, and the new movies and all of Super thus far are just him dreaming. I mean, there's nothing present in any version of the story to even remotely suggest that either of those things are the case, but what does that matter? Unless we can prove this is the REAL Goku, or that Beers isn't dreaming, then we'll never know for sure, right?

You don't HAVE to believe the line. You don't HAVE to place Boo-arc base Goku beneath 100% Freeza in your lists or charts or whatever. You don't HAVE to count Battle of Gods or Super or Toyotaro's manga as part of your personal canon if that one line ruins them for you. But don't insult people's intelligence by pulling this kind of "they're wrong unless you can prove them right" hogwash just because you simply don't like it.

This is confirmation bias. You say there's no reason to doubt Beers without ever actually acknowledging that you can't prove what he's referring to. Your argument is that I must be wrong because... why? What's the reason? Because I disagree with you? As a corollary to that, I disagree with you so I must be insulting people's intelligence. You're just typing a lot of aggressive statements towards me to mask the fact, and it is a fact I'm afraid, that you can't prove what Beers was referring to. I hope you realize that.

I say Goku was likely suppressed. You say he was fully powered. That's the crux of the disagreement. So if neither of us can prove it then that makes Beers statement inconclusive. That's where we are now. So instead of actually proving Goku was fully powered, you just make these aggressive statements that only address me personally. None of those statements you directed towards me actually prove anything. We're still at the same spot where end up last time. You can't prove Goku was fully powered and thus can't prove Beers' statement conclusively proves anything. You're just writing a lot of words to say "You disagree with me so you must be insulting people's intelligence." That's your current argument in a nutshell.

You're also purposefully misconstruing my position. I'm not saying "they're wrong unless you can prove them right" or anything. I'm just pointing out who has the burden of proof. You want to claim Beers is measuring Goku's full power. Can you prove it? Why are you automatically right by default when you insist he's talking about Goku's full power. That's really what this is entirely about. You want to be right by default. Sorry, but you have the burden of proof here. You say he was measuring Goku's full power. I say he was likely measuring a suppressed Goku. You're counterargument is that you're just right and I'm wrong because you're right by default.

[Kaboom]

This is confirmation bias.

No, it's common sense. You can't seem to grasp the fact that if a character says something, and you want to introduce doubt about it, then the so-called "burden of proof" that you keep talking about is on YOU. This isn't real life where people speak erroneously or just plain lie and nobody ever knows. This is a fictional story where things are purposely revealed and explained by the writers and very few things are ever left an open-ended mystery. If the writers plainly tell us <Thing A> within a story, then <Thing A> is true until something else contradicts it.

Saying "maybe Goku was suppressed" is nothing more than baseless and pointless speculation until YOU produce something tangible to actually show that's the case, because nothing less than actual proof will counteract such a direct line. My "Goku's a clone" and "Beerus was dreaming" bits were supposed to be extreme examples to demonstrate this truth, but you still don't get it.

If some guy told you that his mother's name was Janet, would you insist that he prove it? Would you tell him that unless he brings you to meet his mother face-to-face and show photo IDs, birth certificates, and DNA test results for both of them in order to prove that they are indeed a mother and son and that the mother's name is legally "Janet," then you don't believe him? That nobody can REALLY be sure his mother's name is Janet without definite, total proof?

Well this is just as absurd. You're insisting that Beerus' line, a DIRECT face-to-face observation that remains completely uncontradicted, can't just be true or trusted unless it's proven true. That's ridiculous. It's an asinine waste of time for everyone involved. I don't know why I haven't just locked the thread to mercy-kill this whole conversation.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Kaio Shin wanted all four of them to fight Pui Pui too. Moreover even if he was 'only' scared of Yakon, what does it say if base Goku was effortlessly toying with a guy that Kaio Shin, who can one shot Freeza, wanted help against?

Effortlessly toying with? He landed one surprise kick in the dark. Yakon's claws almost ripped through Goku.

It means Kaioshin was cautious. None of Bobbidi's men can be sensed, so why bother taking a chance? Better to be safe than sorry.

[MisterGuyMan]

No, it's common sense. You can't seem to grasp the fact that if a character says something, and you want to introduce doubt about it, then the so-called "burden of proof" that you keep talking about is on YOU. This isn't real life where people speak erroneously or just plain lie and nobody ever knows. This is a fictional story where things are purposely revealed and explained by the writers and very few things are ever left an open-ended mystery. If the writers plainly tell us <Thing A> within a story, then <Thing A> is true until something else contradicts it.

Saying "maybe Goku was suppressed" is nothing more than baseless and pointless speculation until YOU produce something tangible to actually show that's the case, because nothing less than actual proof will counteract such a direct line. My "Goku's a clone" and "Beerus was dreaming" bits were supposed to be extreme examples to demonstrate this truth, but you still don't get it.

If some guy told you that his mother's name was Janet, would you insist that he prove it? Would you tell him that unless he brings you to meet his mother face-to-face and show photo IDs, birth certificates, and DNA test results for both of them in order to prove that they are indeed a mother and son and that the mother's name is legally "Janet," then you don't believe him? That nobody can REALLY be sure his mother's name is Janet without definite, total proof?

Well this is just as absurd. You're insisting that Beerus' line, a DIRECT face-to-face observation that remains completely uncontradicted, can't just be true or trusted unless it's proven true. That's ridiculous. It's an asinine waste of time for everyone involved. I don't know why I haven't just locked the thread to mercy-kill this whole conversation.

You're proving my point. You're right because it's common sense. That's also a fallacy in case you're wondering. You claim saying "maybe Goku was suppressed" is nothing more than baseless and pointless speculation. Ok. You're missing the part where "maybe Goku was at full power" is nothing more than baseless and pointless speculation as well. See how it should apply both ways? You just seem to think that you're right by default which means you can cite Beers and insist on telling me what he was measuring. You can't prove it though. Neither can I naturally but since I'm not citing anything Beers is saying as evidence, I don't have the burden of proof. See how that works? I'm honestly running out of ways to explain to you why you, the person citing evidence, needs to actually prove what the evidence means. I don't have to disprove it since it's not my evidence.

If some one told me their Mother's name was Janet and his sister and brother said it was Monet, then yeah I might have a bit of an issue. Moreover you keep continuing with your confirmation bias logic. You claim it's a direct face to face observation. Sure it is. So is Dabura's. But your confirmation bias prevents you from actually seeing that you can't prove that the face to face observation is actually observing. Beers makes a face to face observation? Obsolute canon! Dabura, Kaio Shin and Vegeta make observations? Literally can't be trusted because it's common sense. That's how you're arguing.

I also looked up the Yakon fight again. Dabura and Babidi consider Yakon strong enough to beat the entire group easily. So how exactly are you going to ignore that there's a statement putting Yakon well above a guy that can one shot Frieza? When is that ever contradicted?

Kaio Shin wanted all four of them to fight Pui Pui too. Moreover even if he was 'only' scared of Yakon, what does it say if base Goku was effortlessly toying with a guy that Kaio Shin, who can one shot Freeza, wanted help against?

Effortlessly toying with? He landed one surprise kick in the dark. Yakon's claws almost ripped through Goku.

It means Kaioshin was cautious. None of Bobbidi's men can be sensed, so why bother taking a chance? Better to be safe than sorry.

I consider it effortlessly toying. Goku wasn't even trying to fight back most of the fight. The one time he was almost cut was because Goku didn't know Yakon's claws could retract. Since we're talking about Yakon I looked it up and Dabura says Yakon should be able to beat them easily. So that's another piece of evidence. Dabura and Babidi both think Yakon can beat Kaio Shin and three other guys easily.

[Darkprince410]

Dabura, Kaio Shin and Vegeta make observations? Literally can't be trusted because it's common sense. That's how you're arguing.

It's because their own statements have been proven unreliable that we're not considering them valid.

1) Vegeta has repeatedly made boasts before of how he can beat his opponent and that he's the strongest, when it's shown to be quite the opposite. It happened with Freeza, it happened with Cell, etc, so his boasts about being the strongest don't hold that much water.

Chapter: 304 (DBZ 110), P10.5-6
Context: after Dende heals him
Vegeta: “Freeza’s battle power…! So he’s finally shown his true form, huh?...Well, I don’t care if Freeza or anyone else comes at me…! I’ve just now become a Super Saiyan…!”

Chapter: 383 (DBZ 189), P3.1
Context: after Cell defeats Kuririn
Vegeta: “Are you happy to harass a piece of garbage like that? Just like I thought, even after reaching your perfect form you still don’t seem like anything special.”

Chapter: 395 (DBZ 201), P13.5
Context: after Goku says he’ll fight first Cell first
Vegeta: “Do what you want. Either way, I’ll be the one to finish this…”

2) As said multiple times before, there's enough evidence to support that Babi-di's men cannot be sensed. Spopovitch has no life that can be detected whatsoever, Goku needed to use changes in air currents to detect Yakon's movements, and Vegeta and Goku needed to use Dabra's motions and movements to get an estimation of his power. If they had ki that could be sensed, it wouldn't make sense for those comments to be made if their ki could be sensed normally.

Chapter: 441 (DBZ 247), P4.4
Context: as Videl fights Spopovitch
Goku: “Like I thought, that Spopovitch guy is weird…He seems too fine, despite the fact that he should have taken so much damage, and I can’t sense any life from him…”

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.1-4
Context: after Kaioshin again warns against unleashing Boo
Vegeta: “Hmph…The way things are going, this ‘Majin Boo’ guy isn’t going to be anything special, is he? Just like that ‘Dabra’ jerk…[ ] I’m saying that this ‘Dabra’ guy doesn’t seem as bad as you two feared. Looking at his attacks and movement outside earlier, it seems that if we just watch out for his spit, then we should manage something. I can’t call Kibito anything but a bumbler for getting done-in like that…”
Kaioshin: “…Is-is that true, Son Goku?...”
Goku: “Yeah…Well, even if that wasn’t him at full force…I think that before he would have been a frightening opponent, but…7 years ago there was a guy called ‘Cell’…[Dabra]’s probably about as strong as him…”

3) Dabra's track record isn't great by any means. Despite his comment about the incredible power that Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan had, he still thought that Pui Pui and Yakon would be more than enough for them, even without sending them to their respective planets. If he were able to accurately gauge their strength at all, he should have been able to instantly realize that Pui Pui stood no chance at all

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P2.5
Context: after Babidi fills Boo’s ball with Gohan’s energy, and the meter becomes almost half full
Dabra: “If we gather energy from the 3 on Stage 1 now, I think we’ll become close to full. If things go well, Majin Boo may be revived within the day.”

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P1.4-6
Context: after Babidi says to send Yakon to Stage 2
Dabra: “Yakon!? You’re already going to use Yakon on Stage 2!?”
Babidi: “…We probably shouldn’t underestimate those Earthlings…They did Pui-Pui in before he could inflict any damage at all…”
Dabra: “…I see. But with Yakon as their opponent, they’ll all be defeated instantly. I won’t get to have any fun.”

With Beerus though, there is nothing said or suggested that would lead one to believe that his comment is, in any way, inaccurate. We have evidence supporting why Vegeta, Kaioushin, and Dabra's statements shouldn't be taken at face value, but no reason to assume or question that Beerus's statement is anything less than factual.

[dbgtFO]

Dabura, Kaio Shin and Vegeta make observations? Literally can't be trusted because it's common sense. That's how you're arguing.

It's because their own statements have been proven unreliable that we're not considering them valid.

1) Vegeta has repeatedly made boasts before of how he can beat his opponent and that he's the strongest, when it's shown to be quite the opposite. It happened with Freeza, it happened with Cell, etc, so his boasts about being the strongest don't hold that much water.

Spoiler:

Chapter: 304 (DBZ 110), P10.5-6
Context: after Dende heals him
Vegeta: “Freeza’s battle power…! So he’s finally shown his true form, huh?...Well, I don’t care if Freeza or anyone else comes at me…! I’ve just now become a Super Saiyan…!”

Chapter: 383 (DBZ 189), P3.1
Context: after Cell defeats Kuririn
Vegeta: “Are you happy to harass a piece of garbage like that? Just like I thought, even after reaching your perfect form you still don’t seem like anything special.”

Chapter: 395 (DBZ 201), P13.5
Context: after Goku says he’ll fight first Cell first
Vegeta: “Do what you want. Either way, I’ll be the one to finish this…”

All those examples have Vegeta underestimating his opponents, because he is unaware of their great power in reserve. Whenever they actually reveal their reserves of power to him, he promptly concedes.
So his arrogance is always a result of him not having full knowledge of his opponents' limits, it's never because he's delusional(ok maybe the first example can fall under that line of logic, but Freeza was holding back and promptly proves so, when he uses more of his speed to outwit Vegeta).
Vegeta knows very well the strength of Piccolo and #18 from 7 years prior, so he has no reason to think himself unbeatable, if he really thought they'd participate, but then again it's an assumption in the first place, that he was aware of #18's and Piccolo's participation in the tournament, when he made that statement, so the statement can just apply to Saiyans like the context already points to.

Either way it's kind of underwhelming how the base states were dismissed prior to God Form. I'd have liked it more, if base Goku tried fighting Beerus with all his might, but then Beerus would remark "this power isn't even enough to defeat Freeza", Goku would then go SS and Beerus would confirm, that he had more power than Freeza then. As we always say actions speak louder than words, right?

The whole scene basically reminds me of Yo Son Goku. Tarble remarks Goku is not powerful enough to take on Abo and Cado, Goku in response goes SS, destroying Tarble's scouter and convincing him that'd be enough. I mean, are we supposed to believe he was at full power in base form and needed to go SS to destroy it? The base form just wasn't allowed to be relevant, probably because they wanted a cool moment with Super Saiyan Goku. We later do see Abo and Cado being outmatched by base Goten and Trunks, but then Abo and Cado were stated to be as strong as Freeza, something Goku dismisses, but doesn't bother saying, if Trunks and Goten need SS to beat them and doesn't bother stating whether or not Tarble's impression of their strength was off or not.
It's just a whole bunch of ambiguous statements and questionable showings of power, that can make later statements not contradictory due to the fact, that nothing ever was as decisive as Beerus' statement.
That's basically it. Toriyama probably decided to make things clear to make it easy for himself to work with and may not have considered prior material or maybe he did, we don't know. But yes the strongest evidence points to base Goku just being plain weaker than Freeza and that's that, though I am not averse to thinking of it only applying to that movie onwards, rather than saying it absolutely must be true of the manga as well, like SSJ2FutureGohan does.

[MisterGuyMan]

It's because their own statements have been proven unreliable that we're not considering them valid.

1) Vegeta has repeatedly made boasts before of how he can beat his opponent and that he's the strongest, when it's shown to be quite the opposite. It happened with Freeza, it happened with Cell, etc, so his boasts about being the strongest don't hold that much water.

So what about Beers? He momentarily thought Vegeta might be SSJ and the power gap there is even bigger. I guess that means everything Beers will ever say is automatically wrong. Morever Vegeta is often wrong, but that's usually when he's guessing at his opponent's power. When confronted with Frieza's power he readily admits he has no chance. Same with seeing SSJ Goku. Same with Piccolo, Cell, Ascended SSJ Goku, Kid Buu, Super Buu, SS3 Goku and Buuhan. All your examples are when Vegeta doesn't know his opponent's power. By contrast, you're just pretending that Vegeta magically doesn't know how strong Piccolo and 18 are.

With Beerus though, there is nothing said or suggested that would lead one to believe that his comment is, in any way, inaccurate. We have evidence supporting why Vegeta, Kaioushin, and Dabra's statements shouldn't be taken at face value, but no reason to assume or question that Beerus's statement is anything less than factual.

Z fighters can hide their power. People rarely are able to measure full power without actually seeing it's full power. That can definitely lead one to believe his comment is inaccurate. He doesn't even have to be inaccurate. He says he doesn't think Goku can beat Frieza "seeing him now". So what's he seeing? If it's a highly suppressed Goku then that means he's right and you're wrong. You're automatically assuming he's saying what you want him to say. Also as I proved earlier, base Goku CAN in fact beat Frieza yet never corrects him. Under your logic, he magically lost his ability to Kienzan and IT because he didn't correct Beers that one time.

Another great recent explanation from DB Super is that their Ki leaks when they power up. This is how others are able to gauge their power. So if they're fully powered, why isn't Kaio Shin able to correctly gauge Vegeta's power? He was surprised at his power when Vegeta beat Pui Pui. So naturally Vegeta must have been suppressed even in the tournament. Same with Goku since Kaio Shin wants to gang up against Yakon even after seeing them both fight. No one ever mothered to mentioned that earlier. Under your logic no one is suppressed unless we're explicitly told.

2) As said multiple times before, there's enough evidence to support that Babi-di's men cannot be sensed. Spopovitch has no life that can be detected whatsoever, Goku needed to use changes in air currents to detect Yakon's movements, and Vegeta and Goku needed to use Dabra's motions and movements to get an estimation of his power. If they had ki that could be sensed, it wouldn't make sense for those comments to be made if their ki could be sensed normally.

Babidi actually measures Yakon's power with the same device that can measure Goku so that should end the speculation. Keep in mind that Goku and Gohan were also able to measure up Yakon before the fight.

3) Dabra's track record isn't great by any means. Despite his comment about the incredible power that Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan had, he still thought that Pui Pui and Yakon would be more than enough for them, even without sending them to their respective planets. If he were able to accurately gauge their strength at all, he should have been able to instantly realize that Pui Pui stood no chance at all

Dabura's statements are wrong precisely because no one knows how strong the Saiyans are. It's repeated over and over again by Dabura, Babidi and Kaio Shin. Dabura and Babidi think Yakon can beat all of them. Kaio Shin wants help against each one of them. It's only the Saiyans that are the unknown. Moreover they CAN accurately gauge power. The problem is that these fighters can suppress their power. Remember how that's also the problem with Beers statement? We actually see Babidi take out a device that accurately measures power.

With Beerus though, there is nothing said or suggested that would lead one to believe that his comment is, in any way, inaccurate. We have evidence supporting why Vegeta, Kaioushin, and Dabra's statements shouldn't be taken at face value, but no reason to assume or question that Beerus's statement is anything less than factual.

The fact that Goku can fluctuate the power that Beers senses is one way Beers statement can be inaccurate. Goku was suppressed when he met Tarbles. Why? He was suppressed prior to the Cell games. He was suppressed when he fought the Ginyu Force and Vegeta points out that he's conserving Ki. Super points out that when they power up, their Ki leaks out. So where was Goku's aura leak when he met Beers? Why is he relaxed and suppressed when he meets Tarble but amped up and wasting Ki for no reason when he meets Beers?

You're also confusing what your argument is with what Beers actually says. What he says is that Goku doesn't have the ability to bear Frieza as Goku was currently. That's actually wrong regardless of how powerful Goku is. No one corrects it. You also assume you know what power Beers is measuring. Beers never specifies one way or another. Their definite differences there between what you're saying and assuming and the single short sentence that Beers actually says.

[MisterGuyMan]

It's because their own statements have been proven unreliable that we're not considering them valid.

1) Vegeta has repeatedly made boasts before of how he can beat his opponent and that he's the strongest, when it's shown to be quite the opposite. It happened with Freeza, it happened with Cell, etc, so his boasts about being the strongest don't hold that much water.

So what about Beers? He momentarily thought Vegeta might be SSJ and the power gap there is even bigger. I guess that means everything Beers will ever say is automatically wrong. Morever Vegeta is often wrong, but that's usually when he's guessing at his opponent's power. When confronted with Freeza's power he readily admits he has no chance. Same with seeing SSJ Goku. Same with Piccolo, Cell, Ascended SSJ Goku, Kid Buu, Super Buu, SS3 Goku and Buuhan. All your examples are when Vegeta doesn't know his opponent's power. By contrast, you're just pretending that Vegeta magically doesn't know how strong Piccolo and 18 are.

With Beerus though, there is nothing said or suggested that would lead one to believe that his comment is, in any way, inaccurate. We have evidence supporting why Vegeta, Kaioushin, and Dabra's statements shouldn't be taken at face value, but no reason to assume or question that Beerus's statement is anything less than factual.

Z fighters can hide their power. People rarely are able to measure full power without actually seeing it's full power. That can definitely lead one to believe his comment is inaccurate. He doesn't even have to be inaccurate. He says he doesn't think Goku can beat Freeza "seeing him now". So what's he seeing? If it's a highly suppressed Goku then that means he's right and you're wrong. You're automatically assuming he's saying what you want him to say. Also as I proved earlier, base Goku CAN in fact beat Freeza yet never corrects him. Under your logic, he magically lost his ability to Kienzan and IT because he didn't correct Beers that one time.

Another great recent explanation from DB Super is that their Ki leaks when they power up. This is how others are able to gauge their power. So if they're fully powered, why isn't Kaio Shin able to correctly gauge Vegeta's power? He was surprised at his power when Vegeta beat Pui Pui. So naturally Vegeta must have been suppressed even in the tournament. Same with Goku since Kaio Shin wants to gang up against Yakon even after seeing them both fight. No one ever mothered to mentioned that earlier. Under your logic no one is suppressed unless we're explicitly told.

2) As said multiple times before, there's enough evidence to support that Babi-di's men cannot be sensed. Spopovitch has no life that can be detected whatsoever, Goku needed to use changes in air currents to detect Yakon's movements, and Vegeta and Goku needed to use Dabra's motions and movements to get an estimation of his power. If they had ki that could be sensed, it wouldn't make sense for those comments to be made if their ki could be sensed normally.

Babidi actually measures Yakon's power with the same device that can measure Goku so that should end the speculation. Keep in mind that Goku and Gohan were also able to measure up Yakon before the fight.

3) Dabra's track record isn't great by any means. Despite his comment about the incredible power that Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan had, he still thought that Pui Pui and Yakon would be more than enough for them, even without sending them to their respective planets. If he were able to accurately gauge their strength at all, he should have been able to instantly realize that Pui Pui stood no chance at all

Dabura's statements are wrong precisely because no one knows how strong the Saiyans are. It's repeated over and over again by Dabura, Babidi and Kaio Shin. Dabura and Babidi think Yakon can beat all of them. Kaio Shin wants help against each one of them. It's only the Saiyans that are the unknown. Moreover they CAN accurately gauge power. The problem is that these fighters can suppress their power. Remember how that's also the problem with Beers statement? We actually see Babidi take out a device that accurately measures power.

With Beerus though, there is nothing said or suggested that would lead one to believe that his comment is, in any way, inaccurate. We have evidence supporting why Vegeta, Kaioushin, and Dabra's statements shouldn't be taken at face value, but no reason to assume or question that Beerus's statement is anything less than factual.

The fact that Goku can fluctuate the power that Beers senses is one way Beers statement can be inaccurate. Goku was suppressed when he met Tarbles. Why? He was suppressed prior to the Cell games. He was suppressed when he fought the Ginyu Force and Vegeta points out that he's conserving Ki. Super points out that when they power up, their Ki leaks out. So where was Goku's aura leak when he met Beers? Why is he relaxed and suppressed when he meets Tarble but amped up and wasting Ki for no reason when he meets Beers?

You're also confusing what your argument is with what Beers actually says. What he says is that Goku doesn't have the ability to bear Freeza as Goku was currently. That's actually wrong regardless of how powerful Goku is. No one corrects it. You also assume you know what power Beers is measuring. Beers never specifies one way or another. Their definite differences there between what you're saying and assuming and the single short sentence that Beers actually says.[/quote]

The whole scene basically reminds me of Yo Son Goku. Tarble remarks Goku is not powerful enough to take on Abo and Cado, Goku in response goes SS, destroying Tarble's scouter and convincing him that'd be enough. I mean, are we supposed to believe he was at full power in base form and needed to go SS to destroy it? The base form just wasn't allowed to be relevant, probably because they wanted a cool moment with Super Saiyan Goku. We later do see Abo and Cado being outmatched by base Goten and Trunks, but then Abo and Cado were stated to be as strong as Freeza, something Goku dismisses, but doesn't bother saying, if Trunks and Goten need SS to beat them and doesn't bother stating whether or not Tarble's impression of their strength was off or not.
It's just a whole bunch of ambiguous statements and questionable showings of power, that can make later statements not contradictory due to the fact, that nothing ever was as decisive as Beerus' statement.

Not only that, we actually SEE Goku power up before going SSJ. So what we see at first is proven to be suppressed and he's suppressed for no reason.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnj-eo27hD8
Base Goku's power is rising and causing Tarble's scouter to fluctuate too. That proves Goku suppresses himself when he's just doing random stuff. This alone proves we can't assume Goku is always walking around at 100% all the time. We need to prove it.

[Desassina]

What if the extent of their suppression could be helped by a multiplier range? Say, we know that Goku's power can vary between 1 - 100 percent, and that he can multiply it, but what if the multipliers had a range as well? SSJ is considered to be 50 times the base battle power, which I assume is 1 * (Percentual Amount of Power), and so Goku could be at 40 times his base, for example.
Let's look at Yakon and Dabura. The latter stated, in the anime, that he would need over 4'000 Kili when SSJ Goku was 3'000, which could be a difference of 1.6, leaving Dabura with 4'800 Kili. That difference is not the same as the multiplier of SSJ2 over SSJ, but it's breaking the wall nonetheless.
Since Yakon was 800, Goku would need around 15 times his base battle power to surpass the creature, while staying at base.

Now, Freeza was 120'000k at 100% of his power, which leaves Goku with a range between 3'000 and 8'000 before he matches Freeza with the same amount he used against Yakon (15 times the base state). Since battle power growth was kept to small amounts after the Freeza saga, and they used higher transformations instead, I don't see why Goku couldn't be below 100% Freeza at base and use higher multipliers before hitting 50. I'm only assuming this because of the Buu saga, by the way, and some other point during the Cell saga.

[Darkprince410]

By contrast, you're just pretending that Vegeta magically doesn't know how strong Piccolo and 18 are.

You're just assuming that he knows they intend to compete, when nothing is shown indicating that he, at the time it was said, knew of their plans to enter. Besides, he's saying that despite having absolutely no idea how much stronger Goku's become during his seven years of the afterlife, so, once again, his comment about him having the superior position doesn't hold weight.

You're also confusing what your argument is with what Beers actually says. What he says is that Goku doesn't have the ability to bear Freeza as Goku was currently. That's actually wrong regardless of how powerful Goku is. No one corrects it. You also assume you know what power Beers is measuring. Beers never specifies one way or another. Their definite differences there between what you're saying and assuming and the single short sentence that Beers actually says.

Except that Beerus's entire dialogue is clearly based on how strong Goku was, since he immediately references Goku's ability to power-up through transformations within the same line of dialogue.

[MisterGuyMan]

You're just assuming that he knows they intend to compete, when nothing is shown indicating that he, at the time it was said, knew of their plans to enter. Besides, he's saying that despite having absolutely no idea how much stronger Goku's become during his seven years of the afterlife, so, once again, his comment about him having the superior position doesn't hold weight.

He has to account for it though. He assumes he holds the superior position with everyone included which means he was to believe he can beat anyone regardless of who enters or not. Vegeta states that the conditions don't change. Obviously if he goes from believing he'll win the tournament to possibly getting bounced in the first round, then those are clearly different conditions. I'm aware many people are just assuming he's only referring to the other Saiyans but even if he's only talking about them, the nature of the tournament itself means he can't ignore the possibility of meeting anyone else because of seeding. Otherwise Vegeta is saying "I'll beat any Saiyan here and but I'm totally ok if I lose before ever meeting any of them." which makes no sense.

Except that Beerus's entire dialogue is clearly based on how strong Goku was, since he immediately references Goku's ability to power-up through transformations within the same line of dialogue.

The diablogue is clearly about what Goku is able to do and then specifically goes into how Goku is able to turn SSJ because Beers is looking for SSG. That's the only thing that's clear honestly because that's what's stated plainly. Either way, nothing changes the fact that Goku never corrects Beers. I hate to be blunt but that's a fact. Beers says an incorrect statement. Goku doesn't correct him.

[Kaboom]

Wait, are we now being told that "you can't beat Freeza" and "but you gain power with Super Saiyan" are two separate and completely unrelated thoughts that Beerus just happens to say in the same sentence?

That the denial about what's being said is so intense that there's argument about how basic sentences work?

I think it's high time for that mercy-killing.