The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

[SupremeKai25]

The franchise was already being milked in the 1990s with the yearly Toei movies which are a just reskin of "Goku fights strong guy, Goku gets mad and activates transformation, Goku kills strong guy".

True, 13 movies within the run time of the Z series (as well as certain other areas) is unquestionably milking. It reached the point where there was more focus on said movies than the series proper itself for certain stretches.
It's like, the moment "Z" got attached to the anime rebrand, it was their ticket to making an avalanche of side content like never before.

Yes. We had new movies on a yearly basis during the Original run (1985-94).

Meanwhile, we've only had two movies during the run of Super, Broly in 2018 and Super Hero in 2022.

17 movies in 10 years vs. 2 movies in 6 years.

Toei is milking Dragon Ball through Super... and yet, Toei has only made 2 movies in 6 years? Something doesn't add up.

Also, the Dragon Ball Super series was supposedly milking the brand... yet it only had 131 episodes. And if we are being technical, the first two arcs were just retelling the movies, so they really don't count.

So, actually, the Dragon Ball Super series only had 103 original episodes. For a series that is supposedly milking the franchise, wouldn't it have way more episodes? Boruto has 300 episodes despite not being nearly as popular as Super was.

[VegettoEX]

I don't see how they're comparable, though.

The old movies contemporary with serialization were 45-50 minute side-story features intended for airing exclusively in Japan as part of double- and triple-features at the Toei Anime Fair events, with later home video releases.

The modern movies are all 90ish minute features created with international distribution and marketing pushes all from the start meant to act as tentpole productions either reinvigorating or continuing an actual ongoing story.

How exactly does that not "add up"...? It's incredibly misleading to say they're even remotely on the same level. Like I honestly don't even see how this conversation is happening right now.

[tonysoprano300]

I mean I'm ok with milking the series if its giving us good/meaningful content, I just don’t watch stuff like ROF or the Goku Black saga and feel like I need to see more of it….but at the same token stuff like BOG did feel like a good way to revive the series. So at the end of the day its always gonna be about the quality although I do recognize that DB should probably end at some point or at the very least Gokus story should end at some point(And it seems Toriyama was interested in doing that towards the end of the original run)

[AliTheZombie13]

I'm not judging you for criticizing Super, I criticize the Manga all the time, but I do say that it is pointless to complain about Super milking the franchise. The franchise was already being milked in the 1990s with the yearly Toei movies which are a just reskin of "Goku fights strong guy, Goku gets mad and activates transformation, Goku kills strong guy".

If it makes you feel any better, I don't have a great opinion of the Z movies either.

And when I talk about "Nostalgia", I am not saying that ALL the criticism for Super narrows down to nostalgia, but I know that there is nostalgia involved, because I have seen all the criticism that was levied against the Cell and Buu saga in the past, and most of that criticism is now applied exclusively to Super.

Stuff like "the protagonists being dumb", that was used in the past to criticize the Cell saga and Buu saga, now it is used exclusively to criticize Goku forgetting the Mafuba seal against Zamasu.

Stuff like "the asspulls and retcons", that was used in the past to criticize the Cell saga and Buu saga, now it is used exclusively to criticize Caulifla for getting Super Saiyan so easily (we'll just ignore Goten and Trunks).

In other words, both DBZ and GT got a popularity boost with the release of Super, because there is a form of recency bias that makes people latch onto the latest product for criticism.

I don't know who they were, but they're not me.
I've been criticizing that shit even before I got to Super.

I will definitely agree with you on the point that fans seem extremely partial to Dragon Ball Z because they grew up with it.
Using GT as an example here, you can't tell the amount of times I have heard the argument that the first 16 episodes suck because, and I quote, "The heroes don't seem to care about their situation. If the characters themselves don't care, then why should I?"

And my natural reaction to that is basically, "Oh, I would love to hear your opinion about the Cell arc."

Simple, Super is much closer to the whimsical nature of Dragon Ball than the Cell saga.
The Cell saga has pretty much none of the fun and light-hearted stuff that distinguish Dragon Ball, it's overly edgy and serious.
Meanwhile, Super is MUCH closer to the roots of Dragon Ball in terms of being a whimsical show where fighters just want to have a fun brawl and show-off their martial skills.

There was never a moment in the original Dragon Ball where genocide was threatened and everyone acted so casual about it.
The first time it happened (King Piccolo), everybody started acting serious and made plans to stop it.
And even if the original DB never existed and Super was all there was, a concept as bleak as existential erasure is very much not "whimsical and fun." Your mileage might vary, but I very much didn't have fun with that.

The fighters do care that the Universes get erased, that is why they are constantly being pushed to higher heights of power, to overcome their opponents. The stakes are that high. The difference is that they simply don't wallow in their misery and are not overly edgy and sentimental like the Cell saga.

They do? Because the writers sure didn't convince me on that. The thought of using the Dragon Balls to resurrect everyone didn't even occur to any of them up until the very last moment, because before of that:

#17: "If you won, what would you wish for?"
Goku: "Eh, I don't want anything, really. How about we wish for a boat? "

[TVfan721]

Like a few others have also stated, I would've been fine if we had never gotten this Dragon Ball revival and the franchise had stayed "ended" at DBGT. I have never been a fan of Dragon Ball Super in any capacity. The theatrical movies were decent on their own but for me, that was it. The series 'Dragon Ball Super' is something that I wish didn't exist and I would gladly remove the movies too to do that. I'm perfectly happy if no new content is ever made (although I know that obviously more content will be happening)

[Mister_Popo]

It's quite remarkable that the disdain for Super, to the extent of questioning its existence, is primarily found within the hardcore fanbase. If we broaden the sample and look at scores from a wider audience or renowned analysts, Super certainly doesn't receive a bad average score:

- IMDb: 8.3/10 · 35,699 votes (DB and DBZ respectively receive scores of 8.5 and 8.
- MyAnimeList: 7.4/10 · 533,324 votes (DB and DBZ respectively receive scores of 8 and 8.2)
- IGN: 7/10
- Review Chris Suckmann: B+

There's also a noticeable difference in perceived quality compared to the original animated content, but not to the extent sometimes claimed by some. The explanation for this is certainly that Super differs greatly in overall style/tone-of-voice from DB/DBZ. It's a bit like Dragon Ball with a Nickelodeon-style twist, made for a broader (including younger) audience. I suggest that some longtime fans might have an issue with that style and approach, and that's okay. It's also true that authenticity has been criticized, such as the policy of not showing blood (which is quite un-Shounen), in order to market it as widely as possible. It's reasonable to object to such things. And of course we all know its animation suffered at times from production schedule-issues, although the animation in the second half was generally decent to outstanding (some episodes).

No one has to like Super. But to explain that it is so bad based on that subjective preference alone that it has no right to exist, is stretching it a bit too far in my opinion. Especially when you compare it to a broader audience of viewers and analysts.

[SupremeKai25]

What I find very interesting is the people who don't want Super to exist (a very selfish position), but are simultaneously fine with GT existing.

How is it even possible? How is it possible to hate Super with such passion, but don't hate GT in the same way?

It's not like GT's writing, art/animation, or fighting coreography is anything to write home about... One "benefit" GT has compared to Super is the 1990s Childhood/Nostalgia, though.

But Yeah, Super in the wider fandom is hugely popular. I don't think people here remember or realize that the final episodes of the ToP arc were live-streamed to huge crowds in city squares.

Super was a popular phenomenon of the 2010s.

[AliTheZombie13]

What I find very interesting is the people who don't want Super to exist (a very selfish position), but are simultaneously fine with GT existing.

How is it even possible? How is it possible to hate Super with such passion, but don't hate GT in the same way?

It's not like GT's writing, art/animation, or fighting coreography is anything to write home about... One "benefit" GT has compared to Super is the 1990s Childhood/Nostalgia, though.

I can answer that one for you:
I like GT, I don't like Super. There, hope that answers it. (shrugs)

Though in my case, I'm not trying to invalidate Super's existence, or validate GT over it.

I don't need others to validate GT's existence for me, because it's already real. It was written, it was animated, it was dubbed, and it was broadcast on international TV. All of it's 64 episodes and 1 special are things anybody can stumble upon and watch out of curiosity. No amount of "GT is not canon!" can change that. And for what it's worth, I enjoyed it. That makes it more than valid for me.

To be honest, "I don't like this, so it shouldn't exist!" is a dumb argument. Nothing we say whatsoever is going to magically wipe that thing out of existence along with our memories and feelings of it, so why bother? You shouldn't be letting random people on the Internet tell you how much you can enjoy your favorite show.

[FortuneSSJ]

Dragon Ball canon stop existing when his own creator started recton events from his own manga, with DB Minus being the biggest offender.

I think there was more good than bad from Toriyama's involvement in modern Dragon Ball and I'm grateful than he came back, but it always felt like Toei wanted to tell more ambitious stories and were held back by him.

Sometimes I even started wondering if Dragon Ball would have been as good as it was without Toriyama's editors to keep him in check.

I don't trust Toei or Toyotaro on their own, but I'm curious to see what stories they can create working together.

We don't only new blood in the animation departament, but in the writting departament too.

I don't care about retcons anymore, thanks to Toriyama making me immune to them. And also Marvel/DC comics, where different writers have the chance to tell their own stories. I think staff having that freedom is fun. And fun is what I want Dragon Ball to keep being.

[tonysoprano300]

Dragon Ball canon stop existing when his own creator started recton events in his own manga with modern Dragon Ball, with DB Minus being the biggest offender.

I think there was more good than bad from Toriyama's involvement in modern Dragon Ball and I'm grateful than he came back, but it always felt like Toei wanted to tell more ambitious stories and were held back by him.

Sometimes I even started wondering if Dragon Ball would actually be as good as it was without Toriyama's editors to keep him in check.

I don't trust Toei or Toyotaro on their own, but I'm curious to see what stories they can create working together.
We don't only new blood in the animation departament, but in the writting departament too.

Technically DB minus didn’t contradict Toriyamas manga, it contradicts the Bardock special which wasn’t written by Toriyama himself. Of course everyone believed that it was canon for the longest time(myself included). I really wish he didnt do that, Gokus origin story was great the way it was and I have met very few DB fans who actually like Minus.

[FortuneSSJ]

Technically DB minus didn’t contradict Toriyamas manga, it contradicts the Bardock special which wasn’t written by Toriyama himself. Of course everyone believed that it was canon for the longest time(myself included). I really wish he didnt do that, Gokus origin story was great the way it was and I have met very few DB fans who actually like Minus.

It also contradicts Goku being sent as a baby and because he was a low class. Nobody cared about him.

[AliTheZombie13]

Dragon Ball canon stop existing when his own creator started recton events in his own manga, with DB Minus being the biggest offender.

I think there was more good than bad from Toriyama's involvement in modern Dragon Ball and I'm grateful than he came back, but it always felt like Toei wanted to tell more ambitious stories and were held back by him.

If the interviews are to be believed, I seriously doubt that.
I don't really feel any bit of artistic integrity from those stories when I read things like, "We should put Future Trunks or Broly back in the franchise, because they're so popular and would definitely sell well!"

In Future Trunks' case, we got a story that overrid the happy ending his timeline received in Z and immediately reset the Status Quo for Super. I'm no Toriyama fanboy, but Toei doesn't seem like a great example to be followed either.

[tonysoprano300]

Technically DB minus didn’t contradict Toriyamas manga, it contradicts the Bardock special which wasn’t written by Toriyama himself. Of course everyone believed that it was canon for the longest time(myself included). I really wish he didnt do that, Gokus origin story was great the way it was and I have met very few DB fans who actually like Minus.

It also contradicts Goku being sent as a baby and because he was a low class. Nobody cared about him.

Its makes radditz out to be a guy who doesn’t know jack shit about anything lol

Which can be considered a retcon I suppose

[tonysoprano300]

I would say that the difference with American comics is that they aren’t very serialized stories in the way that DB is, you do have multiple different continuities that explore the characters in different ways but its often not part of a continuous story line like DB is.

I'm not entirely sure how that would work for DB, would they have a separate continuity that depicts the events in a completely different way?

[AliTheZombie13]

I would say that the difference with American comics is that they aren’t very serialized stories in the way that DB is, you do have multiple different continuities that explore the characters in different ways but its often not part of a continuous story line like DB is.

I'm not entirely sure how that would work for DB, would they have a separate continuity that depicts the events in a completely different way?

I always took that every single entry separate from the original manga should be treated as a separate continuity.
That includes the revival movies, specials like DB minus and both Super manga and anime.

[tonysoprano300]

I would say that the difference with American comics is that they aren’t very serialized stories in the way that DB is, you do have multiple different continuities that explore the characters in different ways but its often not part of a continuous story line like DB is.

I'm not entirely sure how that would work for DB, would they have a separate continuity that depicts the events in a completely different way?

I always took that every single entry separate from the original manga should be treated as a separate continuity.

I kind of do too but the broad strokes are still largely identical, they’ll usually add stuff or maybe show the same event in a different way. Something like DC comics on the other hand can have like 2 entirely different interpretations of Batman and his exploits.

[super michael]

What I find very interesting is the people who don't want Super to exist (a very selfish position), but are simultaneously fine with GT existing.

How is it even possible? How is it possible to hate Super with such passion, but don't hate GT in the same way?

It's not like GT's writing, art/animation, or fighting coreography is anything to write home about... One "benefit" GT has compared to Super is the 1990s Childhood/Nostalgia, though.

I can answer that one for you:
I like GT, I don't like Super. There, hope that answers it. (shrugs)

Though in my case, I'm not trying to invalidate Super's existence, or validate GT over it.

I don't need others to validate GT's existence for me, because it's already real. It was written, it was animated, it was dubbed, and it was broadcast on international TV. All of it's 64 episodes and 1 special are things anybody can stumble upon and watch out of curiosity. No amount of "GT is not canon!" can change that. And for what it's worth, I enjoyed it. That makes it more than valid for me.

To be honest, "I don't like this, so it shouldn't exist!" is a dumb argument. Nothing we say whatsoever is going to magically wipe that thing out of existence along with our memories and feelings of it, so why bother? You shouldn't be letting random people on the Internet tell you how much you can enjoy your favorite show.

I prefer Dragon Ball GT over DBS also. When it comes to writing and art style, I prefer that over DBS any day. In GT they were not afraid to show blood.
Every character were allowed to fight in GT, if they were stopped it was for good reason. Goku asking Goten and Trunks to not fuse and instead give their ki to SSJ4 Goku was a good idea. Goku knew his full power SSJ4 >>> SSJ3 Gotenks.

There was character development in GT, we see Pan matured when she arrives on earth. She was very mature in the Shadow Dragon Saga.

GT Goku wasn't perfect, however he was still mature. He knew when to take things seriously.


Was there some bad writing? The answer is yes. Why was KibitoKai afraid of Dende and Mr Popo, when they are weak. Why didn't Majoob use Boo ability to heal ever.



DBS Goku problem isn't that he does dumb things, the problem is he does way too many dumb things. He says too many dumb things also. Things that Goku knew in the past, he magically forgot or doesn't know.
In Goku Black Saga Goku forgot the Senzu Bean, Urn and Talisman, that is 3 things he forgot. Then the idea of using senzu bean for immortality.
Then the entire episode of Monaka in a costume, that entire episode was Goku being dumb.

Toei problem with DBS is they go too far, they do it so much that it stops being funny.

[Mister_Popo]

I'm using your logic, Evolution used Dragon ball's name and it fail because it wasn't good, same thing should happen to Super but it did not, and FujiTv wishes that GT could gather a live crowd like Super did lol. GT ain't breaking no internet if it came out today. When even Heroes don't want to use your original characters and instead is using the only popular thing from your show to put on their OC, you know it's bad lol.

Tournament of Power-arc of Super had bad/lazy writing according to some, but i was always really looking forward the next episode.
GT first and only watch: struggling to not fall asleep on my couch massively.
People who criticize Super for lazy writing but don't criticize GT, the only reason i can come up with is nostalgia.

I like the idea of Universe vs Universe and tournaments, DBS had some great ideas. However DBS had terrible writing, regardless how great those ideas were.

Making the characters worse and then using said worse characters to move the plot forward is terrible writing. Doing dumb things that they knew or learned in the past just for gags isn't good writing.
In the ToP Goku didn't stop letting his guard down, despite knowing he was the target. He even gets mad at C17 for using his brains. Before the ToP he was acting like a villain towards the other universe.

GT Goku is smart compared to DBS Goku. Characters matures and learns in GT, while DBS they do not.
In GT anyone can fight unless there is a good reason why they can't. An example giving ki to Goku instead of fusing was smart.
In DBS they actually stop fighters from training and fighting for no good reasons.


DBS Goku = Dumb and annoying
DBS Chi Chi = Nagging and selfish
DBS Goten and Trunks = Not allowed to fight, no matter how bad the situation is. Not allowed to train or know of any event.
DBS Boo = Sleeping

In the ToP they were more focused on exhausted Goku and everyone impressed with his battle with SSJ2 Caulifla while everyone ignored SSB Vegeta vs Toppo. They acted like SSJ2 Goku vs Caulifla was the huge fight, which was dumb when there was SSB fighters being ignored.
Ribrianne was really bad in DBS Anime both in personality and design wise.

Writing style, for me, is primarily about the effect a story has on me in terms of entertainment value. Poor writing, to me, is synonymous with the inability to follow along. With "Super," that improved as the anime progressed. With "GT," for me, it only got worse. The credibility of an antagonist can make or break a story, and thus the epic tale of the protagonist as well. The battle with the Shadow Dragons felt like generic good guys vs. bad guys, a mediocre Western cartoon with a Dragon Ball twist.

Omega Shenron didn't convince me as the grand finale villain of a 500+ episode shounen anime because his motivation didn't extend beyond representing the curse of the Dragon Balls. Jiren might not have had a complex motivation in the Tournament of Power, but unlike Omega Shenron, he didn't have the false pretense of being the ultimate villainous end boss. His story leaned more towards a tragic anti-villain, representing the all new benchmark for Goku, a mountain of strength he couldn't overcome with just classic power-ups. This had significant implications for the rest of the story and the further development of the Super manga, particularly in the symbolic transition to a different martial arts style. Goku will need to control his emotions more during battles to maximize the potential of MUI. So, in a way, he's evolving, albeit slowly, into a more tactical fighter. The Tournament of Power and the battles against Kefla (anime only) and Jiren were the first tentative expressions of this evolution.

In the TOP arc, I felt like something was really at stake, despite knowing the outcome. "Total erasure" of U7 in case of failure by an omnipotent god felt like a valid reason for Goku to push his limits like never before. Omega Shenron just felt like a generic cartoon-villain who needed the Dragon Balls to hit the home run.
Furthermore, it wasn't just one person, Jiren, but all fighters from all universes were enemies to U7, making each episode feel the same in the background but different in essence. That kept it interesting for me. GT had the advantage of more changing scenery, but that doesn't automatically make it more captivating. On the contrary, maintaining the same setting while still keeping it engaging is actually more challenging and demands more creativity from the writers.

What's essential, to derive any enjoyment from action in any fictional story (unless you simply thrive on violence), regardless of how they evolve, is a sense of empathy with the characters. I find that Super is perhaps at its best in the slice-of-life/filler parts. The humor not only created a sense of sympathy for the new characters like Whis and Beerus but also served as a relevant foundation that made the payoff stronger in the moments that mattered. I saw those crucial moments, which ultimately make the difference, in GT to be somewhat lacking. Perhaps towards the very end, in that last episode, but it had less impact for me because the writers in GT, in my opinion, didn't employ that emotionally focused writing (what I would consider relevant character development) as much earlier on.

[GurixDr34]

I like the idea of having a Canon but in the end i just want to have fun i hope they make Cooler Baby and Pikkon Canon or make Dragon Ball GT Canon existing as an Alternate Future like Trunks Timeline

[Gapudo]

Toriyama didn't even create Krilin, the most important side character in the entire franchise, because he was created by the editor, and his style was completely different from what we've seen in DBZ (read Dr. Slump if you want to see the real Toriyama) but people are telling X and Y are not canon because there is not the Toriyama name on the cover. Are you F serious? Be real.

Both GT and Super are canon, and both series have almost nothing to do with the real Toriyama