"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[ricky84]

Chapter 40 was basically everything I didn't like about the anime's episodes 122 to 129 condensed into 45 pages.

Some random notes/thoughts on the chapter:

- I've always been one of the people that really liked SSJB Evolution, not for its aesthetic, but more so for what it represented for Vegeta's character and his wholesome growth as a person. In the anime, the foundation for Vegeta attaining SSJB Evolution was based on his intense empathy toward others outside of his inner circle -- which also tied into the main prize of winning the Tournament Of Power (something wanted to accomplish prior to the tournament beginning) -- and his effort to forge his own path of strength beyond what Goku is doing.

In the manga, Vegeta attained his SSJB Evolution form because he was upset that Goku attained Ultra Instinct and left him in the dust again. I despise that motivation because I find to be character regression. That's kind of shit that Android/Cell arc Vegeta was doing, and Vegeta grew beyond that nonsense. Also, Vegeta mentioning that he had no master -- completely disregarding the fact that if it weren't for Whis' teachings and training he wouldn't have been able to attain SSJB Evolution -- was ridiculous. Part of Vegeta having Whis as his martial arts tutor (his first martial arts tutor at that) involved him swallowing his pride and accepting that if he was going to keep with Goku, he would need the help of others to do it. Now he's acting like he became as strong as he did without anybody helping him. What horseshit. Awful character writing.

Everything Vegeta said was just character regression (more so than usual), he's suppose to be beyond this, but I guess progressing the character beyond his bad flaws doesn't work for the story (or lack of) being told here. Vegeta's speech was just disrespectful and reeked of ungratefulness, bitterness, jealousy, and loathe. This chapter literally confirms that TFS's joke interpretation of whining princess Vegeta's "I wanna be a super saiyan, I wanna, I wanna" is spot on. Vegeta grew much stronger by drawing on pure negative emotions and spite at Goku's success. Like someone else once said its sad how Goku lives rent-free in Vegeta's head 24/7, that unhealthy obsession is not good for him.

Vegeta didn't have to bad mouth and call Goku's hardships and journey to where he is now as "Carefree kindergarten" level scraps. The whole "I'm a self made MAN forged on the true battlefield as a real soldier he had it rough growing up in the space hood is eye rolling. The fact Whis expressions were "......" just makes it funny and sad at the same time. Like another poster said I wouldn't mind this if Vegeta first pondered, appreciate Whis help, but decides its best if he tries to forge his own path instead of follow the leader would have been a much better execution, but meh, it seems Toyo doesn't really give a damn about Vegeta's characterization at this point, just checking off the bulletin points at this rate.

I'm greatly disappointed in not only Toppo, but Dyspo, they just weren't handled particular well at all in this ToP saga, I also don't like how Dyspo was eliminated. If he knew he was weakened and out of gas from fighting 17 then why set himself up for failure by trying to help Toppo when he's in no position to help anyone? That was just careless and contrived storytelling just to get this character out the way to focus on the main event (Jiren).

Apparently Toppo and Dyspo got weakened to Early DB levels if they weren't even able to clear a gap that small.

Again with the power level stuff. Did people complain when Saiyan saga Vegeta with a beating like his should've also been able to get up and walk like it was nothing since it takes literally just fraction of 1 power level to?

If you think about it that is quite weird, Vegeta and Toppo are equally worn out to the point Toppo is too tired to jump distance that 21st Budokai saga Goku and Krillin could do by casually jumping above the clouds. The problem here Vegeta is in a similar condition just before raging out from lower than 21 Budokai saga Goku and Krillin to much higher than he currently was when he started out fresh as a compete SSB.

@lord turbo

EXPERIENCE. Roshi has been in more fights than Goku and he has been doing martial arts longer. He also knows more techniques. You can't deny those facts.

More experience and fights is questionable and debatable, knowing more techniques is debatable as well. You know what's not debatable though? Roshi flat out stating Goku's is a better martial artist than himself to the point he even takes and improves on his (Roshi) own teaching in areas he lacked in.[/quote]

This is why I laugh when I hear people say the DBS manga has better characterization than the DBS anime. In the anime, Vegeta always gives props to Goku when the latter earns it, especially when Vegeta gave Goku Black a beating before fusing. He also gave props to Goku and the other saiyans in the final 4 episodes of Super and never disrespected Whis. He rivalry with Goku is portrayed as more friendly and healthy in the anime, as it should be since the end of the Buu arc. SSBE in the anime was achieved by his burning will to protect U7 and resurrect U6 rather than just wanting to be better than Goku in the manga, fitting in with his change in values that happened after the Majin Vegeta plotline.

Toyotara completely negates most of his development in his version of the ToP.

[kemuri07]

I'm at a complete loss at how anyone can prefer the manga over the anime at this point. Not only did Toyotaro complete ruined the Black arc but he completely drops the ball in the already flawed ToP arc.

I dunno. Real easy. Because the anime is terrible. So I’m probably the opposite: I don’t know how anyone can think the anime versions are good.

[ricky84]

Vegeta's words are not the problem with this scene. If anything, they're the saving grace. All of this nonsense about character assassination is beyond ridiculous. It seems like people want a version of Vegeta that is so mature and level-headed that he no longer bears resemblance to what makes Vegeta distinct. If we ever get a Vegeta that lives up to that unreasonable expectation, that will be the end of his role in Dragon Ball. Just because he acknowledges Goku as better in the Boo arc, that doesn't mean he he's perfectly happy being second best. If that were the case, Super would not be able to exist in its current form. Even if he understands that he is, in reality, not superior, he believes that he can and should be.

Vegeta has been eating his failures one after another up to this point in Super. Here we see a tipping point. I don't like that it resulted in a transformation (if you can even call it that), but character-wise, it's totally appropriate.

Based on this scene, however, it does seem that Vegeta should no longer train with Whis in the future. We'll see if that ends up being the case.

That's a poor attempt to defend what is clearly bad character writing. He didn't act this way in the anime version. He still wants to surpass Goku but he doesn't completely disrespect the people who got him as far as he got.

Its funny how people who make obviously false claims about Vegeta "regressing" in the anime go out of their way to defend an example of real regression in the manga. Double standards from the manga fans.

You can stop with your blanket statements. Vegeta still wants to surpass Goku, and his disrespect of Whis is definitely stupid, but that's called a character flaw.

Vegeta never disrespected Whis and Goku like that in the Super anime. He is supposed to have grown beyond his bitterness about others being stronger than him after the Buu arc (which was his main hang up throughout Z). Sure he still doesn't like that Goku is always one step ahead of him in the anime (why would he), but the difference is that he no longer hates him for it, appreciates Goku for always pushing his limits and now values Goku as a friend (though he'll never admit it due to being a tsundere lol).

[kemuri07]

That's a poor attempt to defend what is clearly bad character writing. He didn't act this way in the anime version. He still wants to surpass Goku but he doesn't completely disrespect the people who got him as far as he got.

Its funny how people who make obviously false claims about Vegeta "regressing" in the anime go out of their way to defend an example of real regression in the manga. Double standards from the manga fans.

You can stop with your blanket statements. Vegeta still wants to surpass Goku, and his disrespect of Whis is definitely stupid, but that's called a character flaw.

Vegeta never disrespected Whis and Goku like that in the Super anime. He is supposed to have grownbeyond his bitterness about others being stronger than him after the Buu arc (which was his main hang up throughout Z). Sure he still doesn't like that Goku is always one step ahead of him in the anime (why would he), but the difference is that he no longer hateshim for it, appreciates Goku for always pushing his limits and now values Goku as a friend (though he'll never admit it due to being a tsundere lol).

That is a very interesting interpretation...considering even within the context of the anime Vegeta was still his typical Vegeta self, screaming that he doesn't have to listen to Goku as he YES VEGETA's his way to another opponent. You can be a better person while still exhibiting character flaws. That's normal. So while yeah, Vegeta no longer despises Goku that doesn't mean he's dealt with his insecurities as a fighter. Which, based on the anime, he still very much does. The manga recognizes this and uses this contrasts the "wrong way to gain power" with Goku exhibiting the right way.

But nah, your favorite character didn't get the "respect" he deserved so it's awful writing. Obviously.

[ricky84]

People should not expect Vegeta to not act like Vegeta. What you saw in this chapter was a character finally coming to terms with his preferences for the first time in a long time.

Speak it for yourself. What I saw it was a character that thrashed all the development he got back on the Boo arc.

In the manga, yes. In the anime, no. There was no "regression" in the anime at all.

[TKA]

I'm at a complete loss at how anyone can prefer the manga over the anime at this point.

I'm at a complete loss at how anyone can prefer the anime over the manga at this point.

Not only did Toyotaro completely ruined the Black arc but he completely drops the ball in the already flawed ToP arc.

Not only did the anime completely ruin the Black arc, but it completely dropped the ball in the already-flawed ToP arc.

What a waste of time to type something like that.

That's a poor attempt to defend what is clearly bad character writing. He didn't act this way in the anime version. He still wants to surpass Goku but he doesn't completely disrespect the people who got him as far as he got.

Nonsense. Vegeta isn't some reverent guy who respects people in higher positions. That's not Vegeta in any version. He openly talks bad about Beerus when Beerus isn't around to hear him in the anime, and has made it clear in that version that he's only being so cordial and respectful so he can get stronger.

The manga just has him realize that training with a master isn't suited for him. Whis agrees with his assessment. Stop white knighting Whis, he doesn't need or want you to.

Its funny how people who make obviously false claims about Vegeta "regressing" in the anime go out of their way to defend an example of real regression in the manga. Double standards from the manga fans.

It's funny how people who make obviously false claims about Vegeta "regressing" in the manga go out of their way to defend examples of real regression in the anime. Double standards from the anime fans.

----------------------------------------------------

But seriously, fuck all this "anime fan" and "manga fan" bullshit. I'm a dragonball fan. I like what tells me good stories. I don't appreciate the anime as much as I do the manga because the anime fell well short of the standards I hold for this franchise. Sure, the anime is still leagues better than shit like GT, the pre-BoG movies or anything Dragonball Heroes does, but that's a very low bar to clear.

[ricky84]

I'm at a complete loss at how anyone can prefer the manga over the anime at this point.

I'm at a complete loss at how anyone can prefer the anime over the manga at this point.

Not only did Toyotaro completely ruined the Black arc but he completely drops the ball in the already flawed ToP arc.

Not only did the anime completely ruin the Black arc, but it completely dropped the ball in the already-flawed ToP arc.

What a waste of time to type something like that.

That's a poor attempt to defend what is clearly bad character writing. He didn't act this way in the anime version. He still wants to surpass Goku but he doesn't completely disrespect the people who got him as far as he got.

Nonsense. Vegeta isn't some reverent guy who respects people in higher positions. That's not Vegeta in any version. He openly talks bad about Beerus when Beerus isn't around to hear him in the anime, and has made it clear in that version that he's only being so cordial and respectful so he can get stronger.

The manga just has him realize that training with a master isn't suited for him. Whis agrees with his assessment. Stop white knighting Whis, he doesn't need or want you to.

Its funny how people who make obviously false claims about Vegeta "regressing" in the anime go out of their way to defend an example of real regression in the manga. Double standards from the manga fans.

It's funny how people who make obviously false claims about Vegeta "regressing" in the manga go out of their way to defend examples of real regression in the anime. Double standards from the anime fans.

----------------------------------------------------

But seriously, fuck all this "anime fan" and "manga fan" bullshit. I'm a dragonball fan. I like what tells me good stories. I don't appreciate the anime as much as I do the manga because the anime fell well short of the standards I hold for this franchise. Sure, the anime is still leagues better than shit like GT, the pre-BoG movies or anything Dragonball Heroes does, but that's a very low bar to clear.

1. You gave zero logical arguments about why the manga is better. You just went out of your way to white-knight the manga lmao.

2. Nobody said Vegeta was some reverent, humble guy. But he's also not the type to (since Buu arc) completely disrespect those who help him achieve his desires and serve his interests. All versions make it clear that he hates Beerus, but the anime makes it clear that he respects Whis and Goku.

3. I never said I was big Goku or Whis fan (I actually prefer Vegeta over both of them). You are projecting.

[ricky84]

You can stop with your blanket statements. Vegeta still wants to surpass Goku, and his disrespect of Whis is definitely stupid, but that's called a character flaw.

Vegeta never disrespected Whis and Goku like that in the Super anime. He is supposed to have grownbeyond his bitterness about others being stronger than him after the Buu arc (which was his main hang up throughout Z). Sure he still doesn't like that Goku is always one step ahead of him in the anime (why would he), but the difference is that he no longer hates him for it, appreciates Goku for always pushing his limits and now values Goku as a friend (though he'll never admit it due to being a tsundere lol).

That is a very interesting interpretation...considering even within the context of the anime Vegeta was still his typical Vegeta self, screaming that he doesn't have to listen to Goku as he YES VEGETA's his way to another opponent. You can be a better person while still exhibiting character flaws. That's normal. So while yeah, Vegeta no longer despises Goku that doesn't mean he's dealt with his insecurities as a fighter. Which, based on the anime, he still very much does. The manga recognizes this and uses this contrasts the "wrong way to gain power" with Goku exhibiting the right way.

But nah, your favorite character didn't get the "respect" he deserved so it's awful writing. Obviously.

Your trying to rationalize bad character writing smh. The entire point of his role in the Buu arc was him getting over his hang-ups about others being stronger than him. The fact that Vegeta in the Super anime and even GT no longer hates Goku (and other fighters) just for being stronger than him means that he did get over his
insecurities as a fighter in those versions. But not in the Super manga, which shows real regression.

Goku and Whis are not my favorite characters, so enough with the BS assumptions.

[kemuri07]

Ok cool beans. But where exactly does the manga state that he hates Goku. And have we already forgotten the “Let’s go crazy” moment in the Zamasu arc, where both Vegeta and Goku are grinning ear to ear as they’re about to go down fighting?

So no just because he doesn’t mean he’s gotten over his rivalry with Goku, which is clearly obvious in both versions of Super. Not that hard to understand. It’s a character flaw. Which is not a bad thing and is far more interesting than Goku and Vegeta doing the same thing they’ve always done.

The fact that the manga is outright criticizing that Saiyan lust for power attributed in both Goku and Vegeta is a far more interesting development than just let them operating in God Mode just because Super is really just the “Goku and Vegeta” show.

[Doctor.]

But seriously, fuck all this "anime fan" and "manga fan" bullshit. I'm a dragonball fan. I like what tells me good stories. I don't appreciate the anime as much as I do the manga because the anime fell well short of the standards I hold for this franchise. Sure, the anime is still leagues better than shit like GT, the pre-BoG movies or anything Dragonball Heroes does, but that's a very low bar to clear.

Movie 13, a shameless retread of the Boo arc as it may be, was a better story than anything Toriyama has given us since Battle of Gods.

[batistabus]

All the alternatives you've presented seem vastly preferable.

If you're settling (because this is what it is, settling; there's nothing of merit in Super that can't be found done better in the original series;

But I just don't want to constantly read posts from you and others in this thread, reeking of pretentiousness, that everyone else just doesn't get what Toyotaro/Toriyama is doing and that's why they don't like it.

No, we do get it, we think it's poorly presented.

No, the alternatives are not preferable. They hardly resemble what makes Dragon Ball (or animation, or fantasy storytelling) interesting, and are messes in their own right. Yes, GT had a "unique tone and atmosphere"; things that had did not fit with Dragon Ball, did not ultimately work, and don't have notable creative merit on their own.

Yes, I am settling. I'm settling on the fact that Toriyama isn't drawing this manga himself. I'm settling on the fact that the Dragon Ball Room is so heavily involved in decision making for this franchise. I'm not ashamed to admit that. I'd be perfectly happy with Dragon Ball ending with the final chapter of the manga. To me, as long as Toriyama is involved, anything more than that is a bonus. Yes, there are plenty of things that could be improved upon, but even in a best case scenario, it can't live up to the original run. These characters have completed arcs. Trying to continue that is going to create problems or be redundant no matter what. I think it's delusional to expect a series that was dug up from the grave and revived to be as good as it was in its prime.

It's clear that many people aren't paying close attention to what they're reading month after month. I recall multiple instances in which you stood on your soapbox to announce that you've quit Super. Your tone could use some work as well.

There are plenty of things that are poorly presented in the DBS manga, sure. I'd love to read a lot more criticisms of that. Hell, I'd probably agree with a lot of it.

[ricky84]

Ok cool beans. But where exactly does the manga state that he hates Goku. And have we already forgotten the “Let’s go crazy” moment in the Zamasu arc, where both Vegeta and Goku are grinning ear to ear as they’re about to go down fighting?

So no just because he doesn’t mean he’s gotten over his rivalry with Goku, which is clearly obvious in both versions of Super. Not that hard to understand. It’s a character flaw. Which is not a bad thing and is far more interesting than Goku and Vegeta doing the same thing they’ve always done.

The fact that the manga is outright criticizing that Saiyan lust for power attributed in both Goku and Vegeta is a far more interesting development than just let them operating in God Mode just because Super is really just the “Goku and Vegeta” show.

Learn how to read bro. I never said he ended his rivalry with Goku at all. And its funny how you say the manga is criticizing the Saiyan's lust for power, yet that's either nonsense or hypocritical writing sense the story continues to validate their lust for power by giving them more of it lmao.

[Doctor.]

No, the alternatives are not preferable. They hardly resemble what makes Dragon Ball (or animation, or fantasy storytelling) interesting, and are messes in their own right. Yes, GT had a "unique tone and atmosphere"; things that had did not fit with Dragon Ball, did not ultimately work, and don't have notable creative merit on their own.

Toriyama constantly reinvented his own series while it was running. Saying x isn't Dragon Ball is being narrow-minded considering how often this series went off on different directions. That's why it's irksome that it has resigned itself to its comfort zone.

And as far as I'm aware, Dragon Ball, to you, is what Toriyama writes, so there wouldn't be a problem exploring those alternatives as long as it's Toriyama at the helm.

Yes, I am settling.

I'm glad you admit it. Hopefully you can stop chastising those that don't want to settle and still hope this franchise can recover a sliver of artistic merit, because there is none at the moment.

It's clear that many people aren't paying close attention to what they're reading month after month. I recall multiple instances in which you stood on your soapbox to announce that you're quitting Super. Your tone could use some work as well.

People pay attention. It's not because Toyotaro handwaved the nonsense of the month in some way that people are gonna shut up and swallow what he gives them. Just because there's an explanation available does not mean it's a satisfactory one.

I said that once and I did, in fact, quit reading the manga for a few months before returning once the anime ended. Everyone's tone in this thread could use some work, mine included yes, but that's not gonna happen as long as some people keep acting as if the people who post legitimate criticisms are just retarded, and keep making not-so-subtle insults at their expense every other post while circlejerking over how they're the only ones who "get" it. The pretense of "objectivity" and "civility" doesn't hide what's in plain sight.

[ricky84]

All the alternatives you've presented seem vastly preferable.

If you're settling (because this is what it is, settling; there's nothing of merit in Super that can't be found done better in the original series;

But I just don't want to constantly read posts from you and others in this thread, reeking of pretentiousness, that everyone else just doesn't get what Toyotaro/Toriyama is doing and that's why they don't like it.

No, we do get it, we think it's poorly presented.

No, the alternatives are not preferable. They hardly resemble what makes Dragon Ball (or animation, or fantasy storytelling) interesting, and are messes in their own right. Yes, GT had a "unique tone and atmosphere"; things that had did not fit with Dragon Ball, did not ultimately work, and don't have notable creative merit on their own.

Yes, I am settling. I'm settling on the fact that Toriyama isn't drawing this manga himself. I'm settling on the fact that the Dragon Ball Room is so heavily involved in decision making for this franchise. I'm not ashamed to admit that. I'd be perfectly happy with Dragon Ball ending with the final chapter of the manga. To me, as long as Toriyama is involved, anything more than that is a bonus. Yes, there are plenty of things that could be improved upon, but even in a best case scenario, it can't live up to the original run. These characters have completed arcs. Trying to continue that is going to create problems or be redundant no matter what. I think it's delusional to expect a series that was dug up from the grave and revived to be as good as it was in its prime.

It's clear that many people aren't paying close attention to what they're reading month after month. I recall multiple instances in which you stood on your soapbox to announce that you've quit Super. Your tone could use some work as well.

There are plenty of things that are poorly presented in the DBS manga, sure. I'd love to read a lot more criticisms of that. Hell, I'd probably agree with a lot of it.

Just because Toriyama is invovled with something doesn't make it better. Hell, many of the best things about DB(Z) didn't come from Toriyama himself, but from his editors, Toei or even other mangaka. There were also several times where Toei does something better than Toriyama's take (the Bardock story, the History of Trunks, every fight in the Buu saga, much of the King Piccolo arc, etc).

[batistabus]

Toriyama constantly reinvented his own series while it was running. Saying x isn't Dragon Ball is being narrow-minded considering how often this series went off on different directions. That's why it's irksome that it has resigned itself to its comfort zone.

And as far as I'm aware, Dragon Ball, to you, is what Toriyama writes, so there wouldn't be a problem exploring those alternatives as long as it's Toriyama at the helm.

People pay attention. It's not because Toyotaro handwaved the nonsense of the month in some way that people are gonna shut up and swallow what he gives them. Just because there's an explanation available does not mean it's a satisfactory one.

as long as some people keep acting as if the people who post legitimate criticisms are just retarded, and keep making not-so-subtle insults at their expense every other post while circlejerking over how they're the only ones who "get" it. The pretense of "objectivity" and "civility" doesn't hide what's in plain sight.

It goes off in different directions, but still feels true to itself. You say "whatever Toriyama writes is Dragon Ball" as a "gotcha", but that's my point. It's so tied to him, his perspective, and his distinct style that anything attempted without him will inherently feel off. We don't know if the premise of Super (i.e.: antics between the defeat of Majin Boo and Goku's encounter with Oob) was determined by Toriyama or Shueisha (let's assume Shueisha since Toriyama came in after the ball had already started rolling for Battle of Gods), but either way, I'll agree that it wouldn't be my preferred place from which to continue Dragon Ball. That being said, I'm happy with Toriyama's contributions. If he decided to write a story about the next generation, I'd be very excited.

You're basically arguing against debate here. We can strongly disagree with fellow posters' opinions without attacking them as individuals, which I ~typically~ try to do. Saying "people don't pay attention" describes when I feel an argument isn't sufficiently well reasoned, or ignores/misinterprets information we all have access to. We can disagree on what is or isn't satisfactory. A failed attempt at "civility" is preferable to shameless unpleasantness.

Hopefully you can stop chastising those that don't want to settle and still hope this franchise can recover a sliver of artistic merit, because there is none at the moment.

Hopefully you can stop chastising those who find plenty of enjoyment and artistic merit in this series despite the circumstances.

Hell, many of the best things about DB(Z) didn't come from Toriyama himself

Sure, Toriyama has benefited from supervisor oversight in the past, but the circumstances between then and now are vastly different. It's fine that you think that, but not only don't I agree, I'm just simply not interested in a version of Dragon Ball that doesn't involve Toriyama. Just like I'm not interested in Harry Potter without JK Rowling, Avatar: The Last Airbender without Michael Dante DiMartino/Bryan Konietzko, Breaking Bad without Vince Gilligan, etc. I like the Bardock special just as much as the next guy; that's why I think that Toei should seek to develop stories elsewhere in the Dragon Ball universe, rather than butchering ones about Son Goku and his friends.

[kemuri07]

Ok cool beans. But where exactly does the manga state that he hates Goku. And have we already forgotten the “Let’s go crazy” moment in the Zamasu arc, where both Vegeta and Goku are grinning ear to ear as they’re about to go down fighting?

So no just because he doesn’t mean he’s gotten over his rivalry with Goku, which is clearly obvious in both versions of Super. Not that hard to understand. It’s a character flaw. Which is not a bad thing and is far more interesting than Goku and Vegeta doing the same thing they’ve always done.

The fact that the manga is outright criticizing that Saiyan lust for power attributed in both Goku and Vegeta is a far more interesting development than just let them operating in God Mode just because Super is really just the “Goku and Vegeta” show.

Learn how to read bro. I never said he ended his rivalry with Goku at all. And its funny how you say the manga is criticizing the Saiyan's lust for power, yet that's either nonsense or hypocritical writing sense the story continues to validate their lust for power by giving them more of it lmao.

No shit. But you didn’t answer my initial question: where is it stated that Vegeta still hated Goku. Answer: he doesn’t. He reacts poorly to Goku transforming UI BECAUSE of that rivalry and the usual SAIYAN PRIIIIDE!

Missing my point. Again look at how both Goku and Vegetas power ups contrast with each other: Vegeta gets a minor upgrade using the usual Saiyan hax powers, and gets promptly smacked down by Jiren. Goku gains UI (we’ll see if it’s mastered version) not through relying on a burst of emotions, but by calmly observing that he was wrong and instead of fighting for himself, he doesn’t want to let anyone else done. Not that hard to understand what Toyo is trying to say here.

[TKA]

I don't know why this thread keeps coming back to a lot of us needing to say "No, Toyotaro isn't as good as Toriyama." That's bloody obvious. Toyotaro isn't as good as Toriyama, nor are most mangakas as good as Toriyama. Likewise, Super isn't as good as the original. Just like the vast, vast majority of manga (hell, I'd argue no manga) aren't as good as the original Dragonball manga.

This is a silly continuation of Dragonball. It's frivolous by nature, and puts the writers in an unfavorable position. Even so, Toyotaro working directly under Toriyama manages to make chicken salad out of chicken shit every month... whereas the anime takes that chicken shit and just puts some spices on it and hand it off to us.

Avatar: The Last Airbender without Michael Dante DiMartino/Bryan Konietzko

Funny you mention those, since Aaron Ehasz seems to have been the major creative spark behind that show. Korra was made without him and, well... it was less than good.

[reecehoward]

No, the alternatives are not preferable. They hardly resemble what makes Dragon Ball (or animation, or fantasy storytelling) interesting, and are messes in their own right. Yes, GT had a "unique tone and atmosphere"; things that had did not fit with Dragon Ball, did not ultimately work, and don't have notable creative merit on their own.

Toriyama constantly reinvented his own series while it was running. Saying x isn't Dragon Ball is being narrow-minded considering how often this series went off on different directions. That's why it's irksome that it has resigned itself to its comfort zone.

And as far as I'm aware, Dragon Ball, to you, is what Toriyama writes, so there wouldn't be a problem exploring those alternatives as long as it's Toriyama at the helm.

Yes, I am settling.

I'm glad you admit it. Hopefully you can stop chastising those that don't want to settle and still hope this franchise can recover a sliver of artistic merit, because there is none at the moment.

It's clear that many people aren't paying close attention to what they're reading month after month. I recall multiple instances in which you stood on your soapbox to announce that you're quitting Super. Your tone could use some work as well.

People pay attention. It's not because Toyotaro handwaved the nonsense of the month in some way that people are gonna shut up and swallow what he gives them. Just because there's an explanation available does not mean it's a satisfactory one.

I said that once and I did, in fact, quit reading the manga for a few months before returning once the anime ended. Everyone's tone in this thread could use some work, mine included yes, but that's not gonna happen as long as some people keep acting as if the people who post legitimate criticisms are just retarded, and keep making not-so-subtle insults at their expense every other post while circlejerking over how they're the only ones who "get" it. The pretense of "objectivity" and "civility" doesn't hide what's in plain sight.

Man, I wish I could pin this post. I've only been here a few months, and mostly this has been my experience here at least on this thread. Sadly, since the anime was brought up, I'm willing to bet that if I post my concerns and critique of the anime I'm positive my opinions wouldn't be treated that way. It's a general thing to say, but as I've experienced all over the internet at this point; it's ok to criticize the anime, but it's taboo to give it to the manga. This fanbase can be...odd sometimes. I'm still gonna post my concerns of it here though, regardless of those who treat my issues with the manga as if I'm wrong for seeing AND stating them.
PS - Roshi vs Jiren is STILL absolute bullshit, as well as all the characters in the ToP that's been thrown aside with out even a single punch thrown.

[ricky84]

No, the alternatives are not preferable. They hardly resemble what makes Dragon Ball (or animation, or fantasy storytelling) interesting, and are messes in their own right. Yes, GT had a "unique tone and atmosphere"; things that had did not fit with Dragon Ball, did not ultimately work, and don't have notable creative merit on their own.

Toriyama constantly reinvented his own series while it was running. Saying x isn't Dragon Ball is being narrow-minded considering how often this series went off on different directions. That's why it's irksome that it has resigned itself to its comfort zone.

And as far as I'm aware, Dragon Ball, to you, is what Toriyama writes, so there wouldn't be a problem exploring those alternatives as long as it's Toriyama at the helm.

Yes, I am settling.

I'm glad you admit it. Hopefully you can stop chastising those that don't want to settle and still hope this franchise can recover a sliver of artistic merit, because there is none at the moment.

It's clear that many people aren't paying close attention to what they're reading month after month. I recall multiple instances in which you stood on your soapbox to announce that you're quitting Super. Your tone could use some work as well.

People pay attention. It's not because Toyotaro handwaved the nonsense of the month in some way that people are gonna shut up and swallow what he gives them. Just because there's an explanation available does not mean it's a satisfactory one.

I said that once and I did, in fact, quit reading the manga for a few months before returning once the anime ended. Everyone's tone in this thread could use some work, mine included yes, but that's not gonna happen as long as some people keep acting as if the people who post legitimate criticisms are just retarded, and keep making not-so-subtle insults at their expense every other post while circlejerking over how they're the only ones who "get" it. The pretense of "objectivity" and "civility" doesn't hide what's in plain sight.

Man, I wish I could pin this post. I've only been here a few months, and mostly this has been my experience here at least on this thread. Sadly, since the anime was brought up, I'm willing to bet that if I post my concerns and critique of the anime I'm positive my opinions wouldn't be treated that way. It's a general thing to say, but as I've experienced all over the internet at this point; it's ok to criticize the anime, but it's taboo to give it to the manga. This fanbase can be...odd sometimes. I'm still gonna post my concerns of it here though, regardless of those who treat my issues with the manga as if I'm wrong for seeing AND stating them.
PS - Roshi vs Jiren is STILL absolute bullshit, as well as all the characters in the ToP that's been thrown aside with out even a single punch thrown.

People on Kanzenshuu treat the DBS manga like its the holy grail just because Toriyama is allegedly more involved with it than the DBS anime. They make all sorts of rationalizations and double standards to defend Toyo's manga, even when it does the exact same shit as the anime version smh. It makes no sense.

[Bergamo]

Toriyama constantly reinvented his own series while it was running. Saying x isn't Dragon Ball is being narrow-minded considering how often this series went off on different directions. That's why it's irksome that it has resigned itself to its comfort zone.

And as far as I'm aware, Dragon Ball, to you, is what Toriyama writes, so there wouldn't be a problem exploring those alternatives as long as it's Toriyama at the helm.



I'm glad you admit it. Hopefully you can stop chastising those that don't want to settle and still hope this franchise can recover a sliver of artistic merit, because there is none at the moment.



People pay attention. It's not because Toyotaro handwaved the nonsense of the month in some way that people are gonna shut up and swallow what he gives them. Just because there's an explanation available does not mean it's a satisfactory one.

I said that once and I did, in fact, quit reading the manga for a few months before returning once the anime ended. Everyone's tone in this thread could use some work, mine included yes, but that's not gonna happen as long as some people keep acting as if the people who post legitimate criticisms are just retarded, and keep making not-so-subtle insults at their expense every other post while circlejerking over how they're the only ones who "get" it. The pretense of "objectivity" and "civility" doesn't hide what's in plain sight.

Man, I wish I could pin this post. I've only been here a few months, and mostly this has been my experience here at least on this thread. Sadly, since the anime was brought up, I'm willing to bet that if I post my concerns and critique of the anime I'm positive my opinions wouldn't be treated that way. It's a general thing to say, but as I've experienced all over the internet at this point; it's ok to criticize the anime, but it's taboo to give it to the manga. This fanbase can be...odd sometimes. I'm still gonna post my concerns of it here though, regardless of those who treat my issues with the manga as if I'm wrong for seeing AND stating them.
PS - Roshi vs Jiren is STILL absolute bullshit, as well as all the characters in the ToP that's been thrown aside with out even a single punch thrown.

People on Kanzenshuu treat the DBS manga like its the holy grail just because Toriyama is allegedly more involved with it than the DBS anime. They make all sorts of rationalizations and double standards to defend Toyo's manga, even when it does the exact same shit as the anime version smh. It makes no sense.

I personally like the manga more because I feel that despite Toyotaro's bad storytelling decisions that me makes sometimes, there's still a better sense of coherence that allows me to get invested more that with the anime. In the anime, Cabbe and Caulifla are God-Tier in base, and Goku uses SSB against everyone.