Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Piccolo and Gohan are not god level. Hell I have both only at 5% of Beerus.

Boo was chosen over Piccolo and Gohan because their training was not known.

For comparison, how much percent do you have Buuhan and Vegetto forms take?

Buuhan: 2.56
SSJ Vegetto: 4

[Helios518]

Piccolo and Gohan are not god level. Hell I have both only at 5% of Beerus.

Boo was chosen over Piccolo and Gohan because their training was not known.

For comparison, how much percent do you have Buuhan and Vegetto forms take?

Buuhan: 2.56
SSJ Vegetto: 4

It's percent correct? If so i might use these numbers until future material contradicts them.

[ZombieVito]

It's percent correct? If so i might use these numbers until future material contradicts them.

Well I might be proven wrong with the whole base thing in later episodes. I can also be proven right if Goku says in the next episode something like: "You did great Piccolo, you are far stronger than I remember".

We will just have to wait and see but my money is that there's only one base power and the gold Super Saiyan form is just them not going full power.

[LowRyder2005]

Piccolo and Gohan are not god level. Hell I have both only at 5% of Beerus.

See, here's the root of the problem.
If you don't want to accept that the Goku we have seen now is weaker than the Goku we see as a "Saiyan Beyond God", Piccolo and Gohan almost certainly must be God tiers too. And there's every reason to doubt they are, because we should given in to the assumption that to the characters in Super, Mr. Buu is a better asset in their team (and while he has regeneration, in this contest he'd be knocked out easily if everyone was God tier - just like it had happened with Beerus, so he'd be useless if he was physically outclassed).

It goes as follows:

1. If the Goku that fought Botamo and Frost is this one ->


This same Goku transformed because Frost in his third form was superior to him.

2. Therefore, we end up having Frost stronger than ROF's Fourth Form Freeza. That same Freeza is weaker, but not completely helpless against Goku's Beyond God form.
This creates another possible contradiction: Frost is stronger than Freeza, why hasn't he access to the Golden form? You can of course create multiple valid explanations, but still, doesn't it sound at least slightly strange too in-context?

3. Piccolo is, in fact, not pathetically outclassed against Frost and he has enough physical strenght to bind him. His Makankosappo, by Frost's own admission, is enough to kill him. Goku doubts he can knock Frost out without using Vanilla Super Saiyan.
Therefore, Piccolo has to be at least slightly stronger than Goku in his base form too. Okay, you can argue that Frost is very tired, but even if you put it at 25% of his maximum, you would probably end up with his Final Form still stronger than base Goku (I mean, if you used the same proportions you'd normally use with Freeza, to make an example, his first form would be 1/226 of his full power).

But we have already established that there is no difference between Goku's maximum output in base and RoF's Goku (if anything, he is stronger now).
Hence, Piccolo is God tier, on the level around or superior to non-Golden Freeza, which is at the very least in the same ballpark of the the Saiyan Beyond God, arguably around or stronger than the Super Saiyan God himself.

But nothing of this makes much sense, because Mr. Buu is a more preferable partner than Piccolo to Goku and Vegeta in this endeavor.

[Helios518]

Piccolo and Gohan are not god level. Hell I have both only at 5% of Beerus.

See, here's the root of the problem.
If you don't want to accept that the Goku we have seen now is weaker than the Goku we see as a "Saiyan Beyond God", Piccolo and Gohan almost certainly must be God tiers too. And there's every reason to doubt they are, because we should given in to the assumption that to the characters in Super, Mr. Buu is a better asset in their team (and while he has regeneration, in this contest he'd be knocked out easily if everyone was God tier - just like it had happened with Beerus, so he'd be useless if he was physically outclassed).

It goes as follows:

1. If the Goku that fought Botamo and Frost is this one ->


This same Goku transformed because Frost in his third form was superior to him.

2. Therefore, we end up having Frost stronger than ROF's Fourth Form Freeza. That same Freeza is weaker, but not completely helpless against Goku's Beyond God form.

3. Piccolo is, in fact, not pathetically outclassed against Frost and he has enough physical strenght to bind him. His Makankosappo, by Frost's own admission, is enough to kill him. Goku doubts he can knock Frost out without using Vanilla Super Saiyan.
Therefore, Piccolo has to be at least slightly stronger than Goku in his base form too.

But we have already established that there is no difference between Goku's maximum output in base and RoF's Goku (if anything, he is stronger now).
Hence, Piccolo is God tier, on the level around or superior to non-Golden Freeza, which is at the very least in the same ballpark of the the Saiyan Beyond God, arguably around or stronger than the Super Saiyan God himself.

But nothing of this makes much sense, because Mr. Buu is a more preferable partner than Piccolo to Goku and Vegeta in this endeavor.

Goku and Vegeta didn't know about Piccolo's training when they said Buu is preferable. Also even in that pic there's no gold in the aura.

[ZombieVito]

I don't have that problem.

I don't have base Goku and Vegeta reaching even 10% Beerus.

[LowRyder2005]

Piccolo and Gohan are not god level. Hell I have both only at 5% of Beerus.

See, here's the root of the problem.
If you don't want to accept that the Goku we have seen now is weaker than the Goku we see as a "Saiyan Beyond God", Piccolo and Gohan almost certainly must be God tiers too. And there's every reason to doubt they are, because we should given in to the assumption that to the characters in Super, Mr. Buu is a better asset in their team (and while he has regeneration, in this contest he'd be knocked out easily if everyone was God tier - just like it had happened with Beerus, so he'd be useless if he was physically outclassed).

It goes as follows:

1. If the Goku that fought Botamo and Frost is this one ->


This same Goku transformed because Frost in his third form was superior to him.

2. Therefore, we end up having Frost stronger than ROF's Fourth Form Freeza. That same Freeza is weaker, but not completely helpless against Goku's Beyond God form.

3. Piccolo is, in fact, not pathetically outclassed against Frost and he has enough physical strenght to bind him. His Makankosappo, by Frost's own admission, is enough to kill him. Goku doubts he can knock Frost out without using Vanilla Super Saiyan.
Therefore, Piccolo has to be at least slightly stronger than Goku in his base form too.

But we have already established that there is no difference between Goku's maximum output in base and RoF's Goku (if anything, he is stronger now).
Hence, Piccolo is God tier, on the level around or superior to non-Golden Freeza, which is at the very least in the same ballpark of the the Saiyan Beyond God, arguably around or stronger than the Super Saiyan God himself.

But nothing of this makes much sense, because Mr. Buu is a more preferable partner than Piccolo to Goku and Vegeta in this endeavor.

Goku and Vegeta didn't know about Piccolo's training when they said Buu is preferable. Also even in that pic there's no gold in the aura.

?

Goku and Vegeta still act like they lost someone who was a valuable member: Buu in this case would have been the weakest link and by a gigantic margin. Yet they care about him being unable to compete, while they act like complete trolls towards Piccolo and his power. You could say Goku is 100, Vegeta is 100, Piccolo is 80 and Buu is 1.
Would have Goku and Vegeta freaked out if Krillin said he wouldn't fight in the Cell game?

And still, how can you justify Piccolo sparring on Earth with someone as weak as Gohan and becoming stronger than, let's say, Super Saiyan 3 Goku? Piccolo became better than a Saiyan, and a really powerful one to boot, because reasons?

[Helios518]

See, here's the root of the problem.
If you don't want to accept that the Goku we have seen now is weaker than the Goku we see as a "Saiyan Beyond God", Piccolo and Gohan almost certainly must be God tiers too. And there's every reason to doubt they are, because we should given in to the assumption that to the characters in Super, Mr. Buu is a better asset in their team (and while he has regeneration, in this contest he'd be knocked out easily if everyone was God tier - just like it had happened with Beerus, so he'd be useless if he was physically outclassed).

It goes as follows:

1. If the Goku that fought Botamo and Frost is this one ->


This same Goku transformed because Frost in his third form was superior to him.

2. Therefore, we end up having Frost stronger than ROF's Fourth Form Freeza. That same Freeza is weaker, but not completely helpless against Goku's Beyond God form.

3. Piccolo is, in fact, not pathetically outclassed against Frost and he has enough physical strenght to bind him. His Makankosappo, by Frost's own admission, is enough to kill him. Goku doubts he can knock Frost out without using Vanilla Super Saiyan.
Therefore, Piccolo has to be at least slightly stronger than Goku in his base form too.

But we have already established that there is no difference between Goku's maximum output in base and RoF's Goku (if anything, he is stronger now).
Hence, Piccolo is God tier, on the level around or superior to non-Golden Freeza, which is at the very least in the same ballpark of the the Saiyan Beyond God, arguably around or stronger than the Super Saiyan God himself.

But nothing of this makes much sense, because Mr. Buu is a more preferable partner than Piccolo to Goku and Vegeta in this endeavor.

Goku and Vegeta didn't know about Piccolo's training when they said Buu is preferable. Also even in that pic there's no gold in the aura.

?

Goku and Vegeta still act like they lost someone who was a valuable member: Buu in this case would have been the weakest link and by a gigantic margin. Yet they care about him being unable to compete, while they act like complete trolls towards Piccolo and his power. You could say Goku is 100, Vegeta is 100, Piccolo is 80 and Buu is 1.
Would have Goku and Vegeta freaked out if Krillin said he wouldn't fight in the Cell game?

And still, how can you justify Piccolo sparring on Earth with someone as weak as Gohan and becoming stronger than, let's say, Super Saiyan 3 Goku? Piccolo became better than a Saiyan, and a really powerful one to boot, because reasons?

No I'm not saying he is god tier also Gohan most likely gained back his Ultimate power due to how excited he was for the tournament (and how disappointed he was when he couldn't go). I'm just pointing out that even that pic doesn't have gold in the aura when earlier you said SbG one of the characteristics is that there's gold in the aura.

[Hugo Boss]

I'm just seeing more and more proof that base Goku isn't that strong.

Perhaps that may imply even Final Form Freeza wasn't that strong. He thought he could easily surpass Boo's level, but in the end Boo is still a challenge for Goku as long as he doesn't transform.

[LowRyder2005]

I don't have that problem.

I don't have base Goku and Vegeta reaching even 10% Beerus.

You are free to believe it, I suppose (I can't recall something expressely addressing the Super Saiyan God vs. Saiyan Beyond God debate, six months ago and we didn't even know if Goku and Vegeta were stronger with Super Saiyan Blue); for most people they are at a level comparable to the Super Saiyan God form in the Beyond God state/Base, though.
In the movie Goku fights Beerus in base for a while, in the anime Whis states that the Super Saiyan God power is now "inside Goku", not stating he has to strictly use Super Saiyan to access it; the manga shows Goku fighting in base form with the Super Saiyan God silhouette behind him.

If you want to accept the fact that they all follow at least the same guidelines the Saiyan Beyond God should rightfully be as strong as the Super Saiyan God or (more likely) stronger because Goku trained under Whis to use that power better; saying the are that much weaker sounds like a stretch, to me at least.

Gohan most likely gained back his Ultimate power due to how excited he was for the tournament

Like I said three times already this theory is flat-out disproved by the carefully chosen words used to describe Gohan's state of affairs by the man himself: "I'm having Piccolo retrain me from scratch by now". "Starting from scratch" means "going back to the basics" in this case. If he is saying "Piccolo is helping me going back to the basics" it mean he's not quite done with that.

[Bullza]

Base Goku put up a better fight against Beerus than an angry SSJ2 Vegeta did who supposedly surpassed SSJ3 Goku.

I don't know how strong he's supposed to be exactly but he's definitely stronger than Buu.

Buuhan: 2.56
SSJ Vegetto: 4

You don't include a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegito?

[Helios518]

I don't have that problem.

I don't have base Goku and Vegeta reaching even 10% Beerus.

You are free to believe it, I suppose (I can't recall something expressely addressing the Super Saiyan God vs. Saiyan Beyond God debate, six months ago and we didn't even know if Goku and Vegeta were stronger with Super Saiyan Blue); for most people they are at a level comparable to the Super Saiyan God form in the Beyond God state/Base, though.
In the movie Goku fights Beerus in base for a while, in the anime Whis states that the Super Saiyan God power is now "inside Goku", not stating he has to strictly use Super Saiyan to access it; the manga shows Goku fighting in base form with the Super Saiyan God silhouette behind him.

If you want to accept the fact that they all follow at least the same guidelines the Saiyan Beyond God should rightfully be as strong as the Super Saiyan God or (more likely) stronger because Goku trained under Whis to use that power better; saying the are that much weaker sounds like a stretch, to me at least.

Gohan most likely gained back his Ultimate power due to how excited he was for the tournament

Like I said three times already this theory is flat-out disproved by the carefully chosen words used to describe Gohan's state of affairs by the man himself: "I'm having Piccolo retrain me from scratch by now". "Starting from scratch" means "going back to the basics" in this case. If he is saying "Piccolo is helping me going back to the basics" it mean he's not quite done with that.

That quote has nothing to do with power if it does then you're implying that Kid Gohan and Current Gohan are equally as strong because they started training from scratch.

[ZombieVito]

I don't have that problem.

I don't have base Goku and Vegeta reaching even 10% Beerus.

You are free to believe it, I suppose (I can't recall something expressely addressing the Super Saiyan God vs. Saiyan Beyond God debate, six months ago and we didn't even know if Goku and Vegeta were stronger with Super Saiyan Blue); for most people they are at a level comparable to the Super Saiyan God form in the Base, though.
In the movie Goku fights Beerus in base for a while, in the anime Whis states that the Super Saiyan God power is now "inside Goku", not stating he has to use strictly use Super Saiyan to access it; the manga shows Goku fighting in base form with the Super Saiyan God silhouette behind him.

If you want to accept the fact that they all follow at least the same guidelines the Saiyan Beyond God should rightfully be as strong as the Super Saiyan God or (more likely) stronger because Goku trained under Whis to use that power better; saying the are that much weaker sounds like a stretch, to me at least.

Those examples don't work because this is the super anime continuity we are talking about. The show has more authority than the movies and manga and there hasn't been a single feat that proves that Goku and Vegeta are that strong in base.

Hell the Whis tree example confirms the gap is huge between base and god tier.

[LowRyder2005]

I don't have that problem.

I don't have base Goku and Vegeta reaching even 10% Beerus.

You are free to believe it, I suppose (I can't recall something expressely addressing the Super Saiyan God vs. Saiyan Beyond God debate, six months ago and we didn't even know if Goku and Vegeta were stronger with Super Saiyan Blue); for most people they are at a level comparable to the Super Saiyan God form in the Beyond God state/Base, though.
In the movie Goku fights Beerus in base for a while, in the anime Whis states that the Super Saiyan God power is now "inside Goku", not stating he has to strictly use Super Saiyan to access it; the manga shows Goku fighting in base form with the Super Saiyan God silhouette behind him.

If you want to accept the fact that they all follow at least the same guidelines the Saiyan Beyond God should rightfully be as strong as the Super Saiyan God or (more likely) stronger because Goku trained under Whis to use that power better; saying the are that much weaker sounds like a stretch, to me at least.

Gohan most likely gained back his Ultimate power due to how excited he was for the tournament

Like I said three times already this theory is flat-out disproved by the carefully chosen words used to describe Gohan's state of affairs by the man himself: "I'm having Piccolo retrain me from scratch by now". "Starting from scratch" means "going back to the basics" in this case. If he is saying "Piccolo is helping me going back to the basics" it mean he's not quite done with that.

That quote has nothing to do with power if it does then you're implying that Kid Gohan and Current Gohan are equally as strong because they started training from scratch.

The basics here are to be interpreted as "Gohan's power before he became weaker". You could as well say that - at the high-end implication - it means Gohan will get "the basics done" when he gets his old power back. Then, and only then, he can improve and become stronger.

There are people who won't drive their car or a bike a lot, and they forget how to do so. Gohan is no different here: he can't drive anymore, so he's going back to a school, and taking lessons.
They are starting "starting from scratch" back from how to start up the engine, use transmission, and so on.
When Gohan will have his old set of schools, he'll have "the basics done" and he'll be able to learn more advanced stuff and acquire skills he hadn't before. Gohan is saying, right now, that he's still at the point where he's re-learning old stuff he had already mastered. Therefore, he is not as strong as he was before.

Although, in this case, it'd be more appropriate to say that it'd be a NASCAR's driver who forgot how to drive a NASCAR car on a track.

On the other hand, saying he his as strong or even stronger than his Saikyou No Senshi form is absolutely baseless at this point of the story. Let me ask you, even after presenting you that statement you would argue Gohan is "in all likelihood as strong or stronger than his Saikyou No Senshi at its peak"?

[LowRyder2005]

I don't have that problem.

I don't have base Goku and Vegeta reaching even 10% Beerus.

You are free to believe it, I suppose (I can't recall something expressely addressing the Super Saiyan God vs. Saiyan Beyond God debate, six months ago and we didn't even know if Goku and Vegeta were stronger with Super Saiyan Blue); for most people they are at a level comparable to the Super Saiyan God form in the Base, though.
In the movie Goku fights Beerus in base for a while, in the anime Whis states that the Super Saiyan God power is now "inside Goku", not stating he has to use strictly use Super Saiyan to access it; the manga shows Goku fighting in base form with the Super Saiyan God silhouette behind him.

If you want to accept the fact that they all follow at least the same guidelines the Saiyan Beyond God should rightfully be as strong as the Super Saiyan God or (more likely) stronger because Goku trained under Whis to use that power better; saying the are that much weaker sounds like a stretch, to me at least.

Those examples don't work because this is the super anime continuity we are talking about. The show has more authority than the movies and manga and there hasn't been a single feat that proves that Goku and Vegeta are that strong in base.

Hell the Whis tree example confirms the gap is huge between base and god tier.

No, they work, unless you want to imply that we have objective reasons to believe they'd differ so much in this particular context. And since Toriyama handles the script or general directions for both, they shouldn't really differ that much.

A change in the script like "Goku becoming ten times weaker" would create quite some problems in the narrative coherence (see the Buu sagas debate between anime and manga interpretations).

[ZombieVito]

Base Goku put up a better fight against Beerus than an angry SSJ2 Vegeta did who supposedly surpassed SSJ3 Goku.

I don't know how strong he's supposed to be exactly but he's definitely stronger than Buu.

Buuhan: 2.56
SSJ Vegetto: 4

You don't include a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegito?

Base Goku didn't fight Beerus. He just destroyed the energy ball but that was because he attacked the core.

I didn't include a SSJ3 Vegetto because he doesn't technically exist. He would be a 32.

[Bullza]

He fought him in the movie, that's arguably more canon than the series.

There shouldn't be any reason why a SSJ3 couldn't exist so no reason why Goku would not put it under consideration when comparing it to Beerus.

[Saiyan007]

Base Goku didn't fight Beerus. He just destroyed the energy ball but that was because he attacked the core.

You do realize that energy ball he destroyed was more powerful than Beerus and Goku's beam struggle that was going to destroy the universe right?and since when does ki attacks weaknesses are destroying the core?

Old kai said even getting close to that thing would kill you.

His base form is stronger than SSJG because it would take a god tier to pull off what Goku did he literally punched out a universal blast.Vegito has got nothing on that.

[ZombieVito]

He fought him in the movie, that's arguably more canon than the series.

There shouldn't be any reason why a SSJ3 couldn't exist so no reason why Goku would not put it under consideration when comparing it to Beerus.

This thread is for discussing Super's power levels not BoG ones.

I never said Vegetto couldn't exist.

[Bullza]

It is but we've cross referenced with the movie to fill in the gaps when necessary. If wewere just going with the TV series then we'd have to completely forget about the whole Beerus is a 10 and Goku is a 6 thing because that was never mentioned in the series.

I know you didn't say Vegito couldn't exist but if he does (and he should) then shouldn't SSJ3 Vegito be the one whose a 4? And then Super Vegito would be a 0.25?