Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[RecolorSaiyan]

IMO a post RoF retcon allows us to make sense of a lot of stuff that happened in the arcs after.

[PFM18]

IMO a post RoF retcon allows us to make sense of a lot of stuff that happened in the arcs after.

Like what?

[Bullza]

Well #1 was that Goku did say that they couldn't go with Buu and then you had a 'I suppose" Piccolo.

And #2 was that even after they sensed Frieza coming to Earth and they were freaking out, they said "Well at least we have Buu".

Buu should definitely be stronger than Piccolo and even Super Saiyan Gohan. Just like in the Buu Saga really.

[RecolorSaiyan]

IMO a post RoF retcon allows us to make sense of a lot of stuff that happened in the arcs after.

Like what?

Some that I was able to think of
Piccolo being able to compete with Final Form Frost, who even while weakened required vegeta to go super saiyan (albeit suppressed) to defeat him
ssj2 trunks being able to compete with ssj2 goku
Goku struggling against trio de danger in base when we have basil < buu and lavenda < rusty gohan and bergamo who was nothing much without goku feeding him power.
Vegeta needing to go ssj against the weaker members of u9
18 being able to beat giant butterfly ribiranne when smaller winged ribrianne could force base goku to be on the run

Just some of the examples. Instead of just assuming powerups that weren't made apparent ala gohan or "holding back" for every single fight. If we retcon the super powerful base forms and just have base saiyans be stronger than BoG but not anywhere near SSG from BoG or being strong enough to beat Z then it makes more sense, atleast for me

[ZombieVito]

He wouldn't have got that much stronger, it was only shortly after the Resurrection F Saga and they never said that he'd powered up a lot or anything.

Goku and Piccolo spoke about the power Gohan originally had which was his Ultimate Form from the Buu Saga and he presumably achieved it in Episode 88 before training to make it even more powerful.

Lavender could be weaker than Namek Frieza. Basil on Drugs was weaker than Good Buu and regular Basil was much weaker still.

Says who? Training gains are never consistent. Piccolo can be multiple times stronger than his Boo arc self and still be weaker than Boo.

That would make Hop and the rest of U9 even weaker but somehow managed to give Vegeta and Goku a little trouble. Nah, I don't think so. Piccolo was referring to Gohan's Ultimate form not power IMO.

[Bullza]

Says who? Training gains are never consistent. Piccolo can be multiple times stronger than his Boo arc self and still be weaker than Boo.

That would make Hop and the rest of U9 even weaker but somehow managed to give Vegeta and Goku a little trouble. Nah, I don't think so. Piccolo was referring to Gohan's Ultimate form not power IMO.

As long as he's still weaker than Buu it still wouldn't make any sense regardless. Unless Frost in his Final Form was at best as strong as Frieza in his First Form then it's weird.

I also don't see why those other scrubs couldn't be weaker than name Frieza.

Namek Frieza was supposed to be the most powerful being in the Universe. Even characters like Captain Ginyu was one of the most powerful and Frieza was a thousand times more powerful.

But you'd have all these fodder from a weak Universe 9 that would be stronger than him?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Says who? Training gains are never consistent. Piccolo can be multiple times stronger than his Boo arc self and still be weaker than Boo.

That would make Hop and the rest of U9 even weaker but somehow managed to give Vegeta and Goku a little trouble. Nah, I don't think so. Piccolo was referring to Gohan's Ultimate form not power IMO.

As long as he's still weaker than Buu it still wouldn't make any sense regardless. Unless Frost in his Final Form was at best as strong as Frieza in his First Form then it's weird.

I also don't see why those other scrubs couldn't be weaker than name Frieza.

Namek Frieza was supposed to be the most powerful being in the Universe. Even characters like Captain Ginyu was one of the most powerful and Frieza was a thousand times more powerful.

But you'd have all these fodder from a weak Universe 9 that would be stronger than him?

With regards to Piccolo, Frost was tired, beaten down, AND had to hold back so as to not kill Piccolo.

Meanwhile, Piccolo had to pull out every diverting tactic he could to make up for his lower level of power; efficient blocking/dodging, Multi-Form, and a diversionary charging of energy to make Frost focus on that one particular attack. The animators played it VERY smart by never having Piccolo ever engage Frost directly like in the manga, thus establishing that the power difference is very much a factor in the fight.

[RandomGuy96]

He wouldn't have got that much stronger, it was only shortly after the Resurrection F Saga and they never said that he'd powered up a lot or anything.

Goku and Piccolo spoke about the power Gohan originally had which was his Ultimate Form from the Buu Saga and he presumably achieved it in Episode 88 before training to make it even more powerful.

Lavender could be weaker than Namek Frieza. Basil on Drugs was weaker than Good Buu and regular Basil was much weaker still.

Says who? Training gains are never consistent. Piccolo can be multiple times stronger than his Boo arc self and still be weaker than Boo.

That would make Hop and the rest of U9 even weaker but somehow managed to give Vegeta and Goku a little trouble. Nah, I don't think so. Piccolo was referring to Gohan's Ultimate form not power IMO.

It's not an "imo" kind of statement. Piccolo said "power." Straight up.

This is why Super discussions can never go anywhere.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

He wouldn't have got that much stronger, it was only shortly after the Resurrection F Saga and they never said that he'd powered up a lot or anything.

Goku and Piccolo spoke about the power Gohan originally had which was his Ultimate Form from the Buu Saga and he presumably achieved it in Episode 88 before training to make it even more powerful.

Lavender could be weaker than Namek Frieza. Basil on Drugs was weaker than Good Buu and regular Basil was much weaker still.

Says who? Training gains are never consistent. Piccolo can be multiple times stronger than his Boo arc self and still be weaker than Boo.

That would make Hop and the rest of U9 even weaker but somehow managed to give Vegeta and Goku a little trouble. Nah, I don't think so. Piccolo was referring to Gohan's Ultimate form not power IMO.

It's not an "imo" kind of statement. Piccolo said "power." Straight up.

This is why Super discussions can never go anywhere.

The English language confounds even the simplest things!

"Power" doesn't necessarily refer to a level of strength; there's a reason why the common titling given to superhuman abilities in fiction is "powers". Gohan's Ultimate state is both a "power" in the strength sense AND a "power" in the ability sense. Therefore, simply using the language doesn't work due to the flexible and confusing usage of the English language AND popular usage of terminology in fiction.

[PFM18]

Piccolo being able to compete with Final Form Frost, who even while weakened required vegeta to go super saiyan (albeit suppressed) to defeat him

I don't see this as a problem. Piccolo fought a weakened Frost and was still weaker. The only remotely questionable part about this is that Vegeta decided to use SSJ, but it isn't as though he needed his full-power as a SSJ either he said he held back in order to not kill Frost.

ssj2 trunks being able to compete with ssj2 goku

This is weak evidence of a retcon considering that Trunks is a hybrid Saiyan with more potential who had been training for the previous 13 years.

Goku struggling against trio de danger in base when we have basil < buu and lavenda < rusty gohan and bergamo who was nothing much without goku feeding him power.

Goku had a brief fight in Base where he didn't completely dominate the Trio de Dangers but that means very little when you consider that Vegeta called them trash and Goku agreed with them saying that he was having trouble because they he couldn't sense their ki and they were attacking him together. Individually in terms of power, there's no reason to really believe they are anything to Base Goku.

Vegeta needing to go ssj against the weaker members of u9

Eh, I don't see this as even Vegeta needing SSJ. He could have just thought he would use less energy if he dominated them as a SSJ rather than possibly having issues fighting multiple members with special abilities in his Base.(the freezing ability of the one guy)

just assuming powerups that weren't made apparent ala gohan or "holding back" for every single fight

This isn't even remotely accurate. Nobody is assuming holding back for every fight without reason.

I really don't think this presents enough quality evidence for a retcon to seem reasonable all things considered.

Namek Frieza was supposed to be the most powerful being in the Universe. Even characters like Captain Ginyu was one of the most powerful and Frieza was a thousand times more powerful.

Being one of the strongest in your Universe at a particular moment in time, says very little within the context of the Multiverse. You can be one of the better players on your football team but be trash within the context of the entire league especially when your team is a weaker team.(Like Universe 7 is considered a weak Universe)

It's not an "imo" kind of statement. Piccolo said "power." Straight up.

This is why Super discussions can never go anywhere.

The "power" was not referred to as "level of power." It was not particularly specific considering that when somebody says "that power" it can frequently be used to describe a higher form. Like "that power beyond Super Saiyan" or things of the like.

Super discussions have trouble going anywhere because people make asinine claims like Namek Captain Ginyu>DBS SSJ Gotenks and RoF Piccolo~Zarbon and then insult people for disagreeing with them.

[Marlowe89]

It's not an "imo" kind of statement. Piccolo said "power." Straight up.

This is why Super discussions can never go anywhere.

He also said "original strength" in another scene in the same episode, which is actually specific enough to convey that he wasn't just referring to Gohan's form like some people are suggesting (if the context didn't already make this obvious).

But when it comes to things that are actually unnecessarily vague - and flat-out inconsistent in many cases - the anime has far too many instances to count, which is why Super discussions can truly never go anywhere.

[PFM18]

He also said "original strength" in another scene in the same episode

I don't recall that line but if so that changes things. Which sucks since this would mean that Gohan went from Z Ultimate Gohan level to Blue level in 1 day

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

He also said "original strength" in another scene in the same episode

I don't recall that line but if so that changes things. Which sucks since this would mean that Gohan went from Z Ultimate Gohan level to Blue level in 1 day

Not necessarily.

Much like "power", one can easily stretch "strength" to mean more than its base definition in popular media; it can apply just as easily as "evoking a power", though this usage is much less prevalent in popular spheres. In fact, I believe it was Goku who used the terminology of Gohan's "original strength"; in that case, it basically points to SS/SS2 Gohan being inferior to his original Ultimate self, which doesn't necessarily contradict the idea of Gohan needing to bring out the Ultimate state rather than the specific level of power of Ultimate he once possessed.

[Bullza]

I've finished the Universe 6 Saga now.... except for some confusion with Frost it's mostly straight forward. To keep it simple I added a few colours, Red is from the Battle of God's Saga, Blue is from the Resurrection F Saga and Purple is from the Universe 6 Saga.

I didn't include Botamo because I have no idea where to put him but presumably he's weaker than Frost in his First Form. I didn't know where to put Frost in his First and Third Form either.

Whis | Vados
Beerus
Champa

Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaio-ken X10 Goku
Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta
Hit

Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta | Cabba
Magetta
Super Saiyan Goku
Super Saiyan God Goku

Frost (Final Form)
Goku |Vegeta | Cabba
Goku | Vegeta | Frieza (Final Form)

Super Saiyan Goku (Ritual)
Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan Gotenks

Good Buu
Frieza (First Form)
Super Saiyan 2 Goku
Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan Gohan

Captain Ginyu
Tagoma
Piccolo
Super Saiyan Trunks | Goten
Android 18

Goku | Vegeta
Gohan
Goten | Trunks

Krillin
Tien Shinhan
Master Roshi (Max Power)
Jaco

[ZombieVito]

As long as he's still weaker than Buu it still wouldn't make any sense regardless. Unless Frost in his Final Form was at best as strong as Frieza in his First Form then it's weird.

I also don't see why those other scrubs couldn't be weaker than name Frieza.

Namek Frieza was supposed to be the most powerful being in the Universe. Even characters like Captain Ginyu was one of the most powerful and Frieza was a thousand times more powerful.

But you'd have all these fodder from a weak Universe 9 that would be stronger than him?

Because they gave some trouble to opponents who decimated SS3 Gotenks.

[RecolorSaiyan]

With regards to authors intent in the manga.

I see people taking Krillins statement at face value to say that Gohan hadn't quite reached Goku's level yet. So then do you also take Freeza's statement that he could handle Kale if he took her serious at face value?

Which would then allow for CSSB Goku >= FP Golden Freeza > Gohan = SS Kefla > Kale > Unserious Golden Freeza

[dragon boss z]

With regards to authors intent in the manga.
I see people taking Krillins statement at face value to say that Gohan hadn't quite reached Goku's level yet. So then do you also take Freeza's statement that he could handle Kale if he took her serious at face value?
Which would then allow for CSSB Goku >= FP Golden Freeza > Gohan = SS Kefla > Kale > Unserious Golden Freeza

Ya, that's probably how it would go.

I've finished the Universe 6 Saga now.... except for some confusion with Frost it's mostly straight forward. To keep it simple I added a few colours, Red is from the Battle of God's Saga, Blue is from the Resurrection F Saga and Purple is from the Universe 6 Saga.

I didn't include Botamo because I have no idea where to put him but presumably he's weaker than Frost in his First Form. I didn't know where to put Frost in his First and Third Form either.

[spoiler]Whis | Vados
Beerus
Champa

Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaio-ken X10 Goku
Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta
Hit

Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta | Cabba
Magetta
Super Saiyan Goku
Super Saiyan God Goku

Frost (Final Form)
Goku |Vegeta | Cabba
Goku | Vegeta | Frieza (Final Form)

Super Saiyan Goku (Ritual)
Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan Gotenks

Good Buu
Frieza (First Form)
Super Saiyan 2 Goku
Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan Gohan

Captain Ginyu
Tagoma
Piccolo
Super Saiyan Trunks | Goten
Android 18

Goku | Vegeta
Gohan
Goten | Trunks

Krillin
Tien Shinhan
Master Roshi (Max Power)
Jaco[/spoiler]

This is a reasonable list, but I would probably have some minor differences.
(Warning: mostly opinions) also being next to a character doesn't necessarily mean they are the same strength, it could mean I just couldn't decide or at least think they are near the same level.

Whis/Vados
Beerus
Champa
SSBKK Goku
Golden Frieza
SSB Goku/Vegeta
SSG Goku/temporary powered up ssj Goku
post ritual ssj3 Goku
Z ssj Vegito
full power U6 ssj Goku/Vegeta
Buuhan/ssj2 rage Vegeta/base Vegito
Magetta/ssj Cabba/holding back ssj Goku/Vegeta/ultimate Gohan
full power base Goku/Vegeta/final form Frieza/Super Buu
final form Frost/rusty ssj3 Gotenks/kid Buu
Good Buu/rusty ssj Gotenks/majin ssj2 Vegeta
assault form Frost/super perfect Cell
base Cabba/holding back base Goku/Vegeta
first form Frieza/perfect Cell
first form Frost/cell games ssj Goku
RoF ssj Gohan/ToP Piccolo/cell jr
RoF Piccolo/semi perfect Cell
18
namek Frieza
ssj Goten/Trunks/BoG base Goku/Vegeta
Botamo
base Goten/Trunks/2nd/3rd form namek Frieza
Krillin/Tien/Roshi/Jaco/higher ups in Frieza force

[PFM18]

*snip*

I think it looks good. But I noticed that you changed Piccolo>SSJ Gotenks like you had before right? Why is that?

[Bullza]

I think it looks good. But I noticed that you changed Piccolo>SSJ Gotenks like you had before right? Why is that?

When Trunks and Goten ask if they can compete, Vegeta turns them down first by saying that Fusion wouldn't be allowed but then that they'd need to get stronger on there own if they wanted to be of any use.

But Vegeta was perfectly fine with Piccolo being in it.

[PFM18]

I think it looks good. But I noticed that you changed Piccolo>SSJ Gotenks like you had before right? Why is that?

When Trunks and Goten ask if they can compete, Vegeta turns them down first by saying that Fusion wouldn't be allowed but then that they'd need to get stronger on there own if they wanted to be of any use.

But Vegeta was perfectly fine with Piccolo being in it.

But then all that says is that Piccolo>Goten/Trunks and nothing of Gotenks. You changed where Gotenks stands compared to Piccolo and I was wondering why

With regards to authors intent in the manga.

I see people taking Krillins statement at face value to say that Gohan hadn't quite reached Goku's level yet. So then do you also take Freeza's statement that he could handle Kale if he took her serious at face value?

Which would then allow for CSSB Goku >= FP Golden Freeza > Gohan = SS Kefla > Kale > Unserious Golden Freeza

That ignores the statement by Vados that Kefla was the strongest on the batlefield.

The obvious implication being:

Kefla>Suppressed Jiren>Everyone else