Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Marlowe89]

Vados doesn't say Kefla is the strongest on the battlefield at any point; she said that with Kale's power and Caulifla's fighting sense, she may be unmatched on the battlefield. It wasn't a statement of certainty, and it wasn't entirely referring to strength.

[ZombieVito]

I've finished the Universe 6 Saga now.... except for some confusion with Frost it's mostly straight forward. To keep it simple I added a few colours, Red is from the Battle of God's Saga, Blue is from the Resurrection F Saga and Purple is from the Universe 6 Saga.

I didn't include Botamo because I have no idea where to put him but presumably he's weaker than Frost in his First Form. I didn't know where to put Frost in his First and Third Form either.

Whis | Vados
Beerus
Champa

Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaio-ken X10 Goku
Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta
Hit

Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta | Cabba
Magetta
Super Saiyan Goku
Super Saiyan God Goku

Frost (Final Form)
Goku |Vegeta | Cabba
Goku | Vegeta | Frieza (Final Form)

Super Saiyan Goku (Ritual)
Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan Gotenks

Good Buu
Frieza (First Form)
Super Saiyan 2 Goku
Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan Gohan

Captain Ginyu
Tagoma
Piccolo
Super Saiyan Trunks | Goten
Android 18

Goku | Vegeta
Gohan
Goten | Trunks

Krillin
Tien Shinhan
Master Roshi (Max Power)
Jaco

Wouldn't Piccolo at least surpass Ginyu with 8 months of training with Gohan?

Speaking of Gohan, doesn't he fight on par with Piccolo in base in E30? That should be enough to disprove this Ultimate Gohan [E88] = Ultimate Gohan [Boo arc] nonsense.

P.S. Why do you think Goku and Vegeta haven't surpassed Golden Freeza?

[PFM18]

Vados doesn't say Kefla is the strongest on the battlefield at any point; she said that with Kale's power and Caulifla's fighting sense, she may be unmatched on the battlefield. It wasn't a statement of certainty, and it wasn't entirely referring to strength.

I thought you were ignoring me? You're responding to something I said so I'm a bit confused.

I don't see how "Kefla is the strongest on the battlefield" and "Kefla is unmatched on the battlefield" are in any way different. Technically she could be referring to the combination of power and fighting sense being unmatched but I don't think so.

Also I don't recall the "may" in there but I guess I'll take your word for it

[Marlowe89]

I thought you were ignoring me? You're responding to something I said so I'm a bit confused.

You can still see posts from an ignored user if you haven't logged in yet. I'm just clearing up a possible misconception in case one arises.

Vados made it clear that she was speaking on possibilities, not absolutes (hence "may") and that she was referring to the combined merits of Kefla's fusees rather than any strict power hierarchy. It also makes sense: Angels aren't omniscient, and even Whis didn't seem to be aware of how all these fighters compare in a tournament where a lot of them are deliberately conserving their strength. The point is that Kefla was potentially unmatched based on prior intel.

And you don't have to take my word for it. These chapters are freely available.

[Bullza]

But then all that says is that Piccolo>Goten/Trunks and nothing of Gotenks. You changed where Gotenks stands compared to Piccolo and I was wondering why

Oh sorry I misread, I thought you put SSJ Goten.

Not sure what you're referring to then because I had Super Saiyan Gotenks over Piccolo last time too. I had Piccolo over Base Gotenks before if you mean that. I just took him ouwt this time because I wasn't sure where he should go.

Wouldn't Piccolo at least surpass Ginyu with 8 months of training with Gohan?

Do we know it's 8 months? It's hard to say because we don't know how much Piccolo improved nor how much stronger Tagoma was than Piccolo.

We know Piccolo got around as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Gohan by the ToP, so at that point he'd be well over twice as strong as Tagoma so it's possible he could he have.

Speaking of Gohan, doesn't he fight on par with Piccolo in base in E30?

He does and Piccolo had his fights off to but it's where some of the older confusion into it so I'm just writing that off as it just being sparring for now. Gohan fought on par with Goku also and that should be possible but that's jumping ahead.

P.S. Why do you think Goku and Vegeta haven't surpassed Golden Freeza?

Well again they could have but that would have to be a pretty big jump from where they were before and they did say before they went in that they were nearing their limits so I wouldn't have thought they'd have jumped up so much but there's nothing to say they couldn't be.

Hit could be. It could go SSJB Goku > Hit > Golden Frieza > SSJB Goku for all I know.

[ZombieVito]

But then all that says is that Piccolo>Goten/Trunks and nothing of Gotenks. You changed where Gotenks stands compared to Piccolo and I was wondering why

Oh sorry I misread, I thought you put SSJ Goten.

Not sure what you're referring to then because I had Super Saiyan Gotenks over Piccolo last time too. I had Piccolo over Base Gotenks before if you mean that. I just took him ouwt this time because I wasn't sure where he should go.

Wouldn't Piccolo at least surpass Ginyu with 8 months of training with Gohan?

Do we know it's 8 months? It's hard to say because we don't know how much Piccolo improved nor how much stronger Tagoma was than Piccolo.

We know Piccolo got around as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Gohan by the ToP, so at that point he'd be well over twice as strong as Tagoma so it's possible he could he have.

Speaking of Gohan, doesn't he fight on par with Piccolo in base in E30?

He does and Piccolo had his fights off to but it's where some of the older confusion into it so I'm just writing that off as it just being sparring for now. Gohan fought on par with Goku also and that should be possible but that's jumping ahead.

P.S. Why do you think Goku and Vegeta haven't surpassed Golden Freeza?

Well again they could have but that would have to be a pretty big jump from where they were before and they did say before they went in that they were nearing their limits so I wouldn't have thought they'd have jumped up so much but there's nothing to say they couldn't be.

Hit could be. It could go SSJB Goku > Hit > Golden Frieza > SSJB Goku for all I know.

They used the Dragon Balls again in E29 so 8 months had to pass.

I would take the sparring explanation but Piccolo was also tired and that should be impossible since he would be dozens of times stronger than base Gohan. They were on par strength wise.

Was Freeza really that much stronger than them?

[PFM18]

But then all that says is that Piccolo>Goten/Trunks and nothing of Gotenks. You changed where Gotenks stands compared to Piccolo and I was wondering why

Oh sorry I misread, I thought you put SSJ Goten.

Not sure what you're referring to then because I had Super Saiyan Gotenks over Piccolo last time too. I had Piccolo over Base Gotenks before if you mean that. I just took him ouwt this time because I wasn't sure where he should go.

Wouldn't Piccolo at least surpass Ginyu with 8 months of training with Gohan?

Do we know it's 8 months? It's hard to say because we don't know how much Piccolo improved nor how much stronger Tagoma was than Piccolo.

We know Piccolo got around as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Gohan by the ToP, so at that point he'd be well over twice as strong as Tagoma so it's possible he could he have.

Speaking of Gohan, doesn't he fight on par with Piccolo in base in E30?

He does and Piccolo had his fights off to but it's where some of the older confusion into it so I'm just writing that off as it just being sparring for now. Gohan fought on par with Goku also and that should be possible but that's jumping ahead.

P.S. Why do you think Goku and Vegeta haven't surpassed Golden Freeza?

Well again they could have but that would have to be a pretty big jump from where they were before and they did say before they went in that they were nearing their limits so I wouldn't have thought they'd have jumped up so much but there's nothing to say they couldn't be.

Hit could be. It could go SSJB Goku > Hit > Golden Frieza > SSJB Goku for all I know.

Oh really? I could have sworn you said SSJ Gotenks<Piccolo before. My bad

I have no problem with Piccolo>SSJ Goten/Trunks for several reasons. They probably were pretty close in the Buu arc and Piccolo has been diligently training since then so it makes sense and is confirmed by the dialogue with Vegeta. Right now Goten and Trunks on their own should be a complete joke so Vegeta SHOULD have had a problem with their inclusion.

But yeah I dont have much to critique of your list it looks pretty good

[Bullza]

They used the Dragon Balls again in E29 so 8 months had to pass.

Ehhhh that's true but then at least Xenoverse 2 has them both in the same year so...maybe the game was the one that got it wrong.

If it was eight months then yeah maybe he could be stronger.

I would take the sparring explanation but Piccolo was also tired and that should be impossible since he would be dozens of times stronger than base Gohan.

The problem that's hard for me to accept is that it would mean he'd have gone from being on par with Base Gohan to being around a hundred times stronger in just one year. That seems a bit much.

I could see him going from a Cell Jr to a Super Perfect Cell level in a year though.

Based on the Zen Exhibition I wouldn't say that Super Saiyan Gohan is even as strong as Good Buu as Buu won an easier fight against a stronger opponent.

I'd say it was something like

Good Buu
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan ~ Piccolo (ToP)
Super Perfect Cell
Super Saiyan Gohan
Piccolo (U6)
Super Saiyan Goten ~ Cell Jr

Was Freeza really that much stronger than them?

I'd say by a good bit yeah. Not to the same extent that Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black was stronger than them but enough to win fairly quickly with some effort.

[ZombieVito]

Ehhhh that's true but then at least Xenoverse 2 has them both in the same year so...maybe the game was the one that got it wrong.

If it was eight months then yeah maybe he could be stronger.

The problem that's hard for me to accept is that it would mean he'd have gone from being on par with Base Gohan to being around a hundred times stronger in just one year. That seems a bit much.

I could see him going from a Cell Jr to a Super Perfect Cell level in a year though.

Based on the Zen Exhibition I wouldn't say that Super Saiyan Gohan is even as strong as Good Buu as Buu won an easier fight against a stronger opponent.

I'd say it was something like

Good Buu
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan ~ Piccolo (ToP)
Super Perfect Cell
Super Saiyan Gohan
Piccolo (U6)
Super Saiyan Goten ~ Cell Jr

Well the manga and anime never got the dates wrong so I go with that.

But base Gohan was already on par with Lavender. Are you forgetting that he countered every single one of his attacks while being blind? He also couldn't sensed him.

He only used Super Saiyan when he needed to detect him since Lavender flew but more importantly his body was rotting away so he was getting weaker.

P.S. I think it's a bit silly to complain about training gains when Gohan went from SS2 tier to Blue tier in less than a day.

[Bullza]

Well the manga and anime never got the dates wrong so I go with that.

What dates? In the manga there was no extra wish from Shenron and then in the Future Trunks Saga Whis said that he'd only just used the Time Skip recently referring to saving Earth. Xenoverse 2 put that Saga in the same year too so it should all be close together.

The anime had the same line about it being recent too so it's odd that it was meant to be many months later.

But base Gohan was already on par with Lavender. Are you forgetting that he countered every single one of his attacks while being blind? He also couldn't sensed him.

He only used Super Saiyan when he needed to detect him since Lavender flew but more importantly his body was rotting away so he was getting weaker.

I remember, he fought on par with Lavender briefly, then he seemed to be dominating him and then it was closer in Super Saiyan though he was affected by the poison. Still I wouldn't say that Piccolo was stronger than Buu so I also wouldn't have said that Super Saiyan 2 Gohan or lower were stronger than Buu either.

P.S. I think it's a bit silly to complain about training gains when Gohan went from SS2 tier to Blue tier in less than a day.

Well maybe but they did say that Gohan had the potential to surpass them all and the Ultimate Form is all about his potential. Then it depends if he really was Blue tier, I'd say probably not quite but yeah it did shoot up.

At least Piccolo was still meant to be weaker than Frost.

[PFM18]

Good Buu
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan ~ Piccolo (ToP)
Super Perfect Cell
Super Saiyan Gohan
Piccolo (U6)
Super Saiyan Goten ~ Cell Jr

How could Base Gohan be relative to Piccolo while his SSJ is still below Cell? His Base was never on par with Piccolo prior to this point so he must have retained some of the power from his potential being unleashed from Old Kai. Cell should be rendered irrelevant by this point

[Bullza]

How could Base Gohan be relative to Piccolo while his SSJ is still below Cell? His Base was never on par with Piccolo prior to this point so he must have retained some of the power from his potential being unleashed from Old Kai. Cell should be rendered irrelevant by this point

Well that's if Base Gohan really is comparable to Piccolo. It's all pretty confusing.

Going by Base Goku being weaker than Frieza then Gohan should be much weaker but the Resurrection F Saga seemed to suggest he was stronger or as strong. After the Future Trunks Saga he fought evenly with Goku but then the Universe Survival Saga has him nowhere near Piccolo.

In the episode after that he's back to fighting on par with Goku who is supposed to be well above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and in the Tournament itself Base Gohan was doing at least as good as Piccolo against the other Namekians.

So he shouldn't have been, then he was, then he wasn't and then he probably was.

[PFM18]

Well that's if Base Gohan really is comparable to Piccolo. It's all pretty confusing.

Going by Base Goku being weaker than Frieza then Gohan should be much weaker but the Resurrection F Saga seemed to suggest he was stronger or as strong.

Yeah the way I interpreted it was that his Base was weaker than Freeza during the Buu arc pr-Ultimate, but after he retained power from his ritual with Old Kai his Base is around Piccolo level and his SSJ is stronger than his Cell Games self but weaker than his Buu arc Ultimate self. In a nutshell:

Buu arc Ultimate Gohan>SSJ RoF Gohan>SSJ2 CG Gohan>>RoF Piccolo~RoF Base Gohan>>Namek Freeza>Base Gohan Buu arc

After the Future Trunks Saga he fought evenly with Goku

I don't see him as being even with Goku in equivalent forms after the FT arc. Goku is insanely strong by this point and Gohan should be nowhere close to him. They fight in Base, Goku admits to holding back, then they fight in SSJ and continue to fight evenly. To me the natural assumption is that he continued to hold back during their SSJ vs SSJ fight. Not to mention this was a casual sparring match that amounted to a gag scene.

SSJ Goku>>>> Suppressed SSJ Goku~SSJ Gohan

in the Tournament itself Base Gohan was doing at least as good as Piccolo against the other Namekians.

Yeah. That makes sense to me.

Base Gohan(post-training)~Piccolo>SSJ2 Gohan(pre-training)>RoF SSJ Gohan>RoF Piccolo~RoF Base Gohan

Where the bolded is referring to the iterations of the characters from episode 90 something or whatever episode it was. For Gohan's Ultimate form to remotely be able to compete with Blue he must have gotten a massive power boost no matter which way you look at it.

I don't know a lot of this is just personal interpretation but this makes sense to me

[ZombieVito]

I think people underestimate how much of a feat Gohan had against Lavender. The guy couldn't see or sense him at all and he still could not only block but also attack him. It wasn't until Lavender flew that Gohan had no choice but to use Super Saiyan to detect him. He never transformed because he was overpowered.

Bergamo, Lavender and Basil are considered the 3 strongest fighters in their universe so they shouldn't be that far apart from each other and Basil was already on par or stronger than a Boo arc Super Saiyan 2 judging by his fight with Boo so saying that Gohan was the same as he was in the Boo arc is ridiculous to me.

Even in the damn manga they are comparable to each other.

I do agree however that Piccolo is still weaker than Frost and base Gohan caught up to him after E88.

[dragon boss z]

Good Buu
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan ~ Piccolo (ToP)
Super Perfect Cell
Super Saiyan Gohan
Piccolo (U6)
Super Saiyan Goten ~ Cell Jr

How could Base Gohan be relative to Piccolo while his SSJ is still below Cell? His Base was never on par with Piccolo prior to this point so he must have retained some of the power from his potential being unleashed from Old Kai. Cell should be rendered irrelevant by this point

Maybe the boost Gohan gets as a ssj is fairly small now.

[PFM18]

Good Buu
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan ~ Piccolo (ToP)
Super Perfect Cell
Super Saiyan Gohan
Piccolo (U6)
Super Saiyan Goten ~ Cell Jr

How could Base Gohan be relative to Piccolo while his SSJ is still below Cell? His Base was never on par with Piccolo prior to this point so he must have retained some of the power from his potential being unleashed from Old Kai. Cell should be rendered irrelevant by this point

Maybe the boost Gohan gets as a ssj is fairly small now.

Why would it suddenly change?

[Bullza]

Bergamo, Lavender and Basil are considered the 3 strongest fighters in their universe so they shouldn't be that far apart from each other and Basil was already on par or stronger than a Boo arc Super Saiyan 2 judging by his fight with Boo so saying that Gohan was the same as he was in the Boo arc is ridiculous to me.

Even in the damn manga they are comparable to each other.

There has to be some kind of significant difference if Basil was far below Good Buu but then Bergamo was on par with Base Goku who was supposedly above Gotenks.

Yeah the drugged up Basil should probably be on the level of say Majin Vegeta but normally it's hard to say.

Gohan was blocking all of his attacks when blinded but Lavender could have been caught by surprise because he was doing fine at first. He also did just fine only shortly after Gohan turned Super Saiyan.

Unless you think in such a short period of time Super Saiyan Gohan's power fell below his Base level.

Lavender held his own against Super Saiyan Vegeta for just as long as Frost really. Which again shouldn't have happened either way if Gotenks can't even budge him.

[dragon boss z]

How could Base Gohan be relative to Piccolo while his SSJ is still below Cell? His Base was never on par with Piccolo prior to this point so he must have retained some of the power from his potential being unleashed from Old Kai. Cell should be rendered irrelevant by this point

Maybe the boost Gohan gets as a ssj is fairly small now.

Why would it suddenly change?

Because of his potential unleashed power which made it so going ssj would no longer give him a boost. But he stopped training, so while he got weaker he may have retained a stronger base. It would also explain why his base was Piccolo tier one moment, ssj2 tier the next, to being base again in just a day. His base form and ssj form also both fought Lavender pretty much the same way, with ssj only seeming slightly stronger.

[PFM18]

Maybe the boost Gohan gets as a ssj is fairly small now.

Why would it suddenly change?

Because of his potential unleashed power which made it so going ssj would no longer give him a boost. But he stopped training, so while he got weaker he may have retained a stronger base. It would also explain why his base was Piccolo tier one moment, ssj2 tier the next, to being base again in just a day. His base form and ssj form also both fought Lavender pretty much the same way, with ssj only seeming slightly stronger.

That makes sense. It's still head canon, but sensible head canon.

[ZombieVito]

There has to be some kind of significant difference if Basil was far below Good Buu but then Bergamo was on par with Base Goku who was supposedly above Gotenks.

Yeah the drugged up Basil should probably be on the level of say Majin Vegeta but normally it's hard to say.

Gohan was blocking all of his attacks when blinded but Lavender could have been caught by surprise because he was doing fine at first. He also did just fine only shortly after Gohan turned Super Saiyan.

Unless you think in such a short period of time Super Saiyan Gohan's power fell below his Base level.

Lavender held his own against Super Saiyan Vegeta for just as long as Frost really. Which again shouldn't have happened either way if Gotenks can't even budge him.

Basil only did good because Gohan didn't focus properly. Once he did, Basil didn't hit him a single time and had to take the match to the air.

Bergamo wasn't on par with base Goku. The latter overpowered him in base at the ToP when the Trio de Dangers fought Goku 3 vs 1.