Dragonball Kai (FUNimation English) Dub: General Discussion

[Gaffer Tape]

I wish you'd stop using the term "purist" like it's a bad thing.

And, yes, I do pronounce it "Sah-tan." I have for ten years. It's hard to watch the show and hear everyone calling him that (and chanting it) without saying it that way. And it's not just a loan word... it's his name.

[Tsukento]

Mr. Satan is his professional name and the only name given to him in the series proper.

Mark was revealed in an interview with Toriyama to be his real name, as it is an anagram of akuma.

Doesn't that technically count as a late submission, considering like it seems like Toriyama just came up with it on the fly for the interview?

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

I wish you'd stop using the term "purist" like it's a bad thing.

And, yes, I do pronounce it "Sah-tan." I have for ten years. It's hard to watch the show and hear everyone calling him that (and chanting it) without saying it that way. And it's not just a loan word... it's his name.

But he has an English name, and it should be pronounced how it would normally be in said language. We don't pronounce "Trunks" as "Torankusu" just because we hear that in the show.

[Gaffer Tape]

Doesn't that technically count as a late submission, considering like it seems like Toriyama just came up with it on the fly for the interview?

Actually, wasn't it in one of the recent guides?

But, I dunno. I sometimes have a hard time with the canonicity of things like this, as it simply doesn't exist in the actual series at all. I do believe it and accept it, but I'd never consider it appropriate to use the name "Mark" in the series itself since it wasn't even invented until very recently. Now, if there was a new storyline, and Toriyama decided to use the name "Mark," that would be fine from then on. But since the name is essentially a retcon, it would irk me if FUNimation decided to make a serious reference to it in their dub, as the name simply didn't exist at this point in the story. It would be like making an offhand reference to Saiya-jin during the Red Ribbon Arc. But that might just be me. I mean, there are certainly many worse things they could do, and this would rank pretty low on my scale.

EDIT... Re: Piccolo Daimaoh

Yes, but it's his name, and he can pronounce it however he wants to. And he chose to pronounce it differently from the evil-incarnate devil he stole it from. Probably better for PR that way.

Seriously, though, I consider this totally different from "Torankusu." That's simply "Trunks" expressed as best as it could be in the Japanese phonetic system. My logic is, if they had wanted his name to be pronounced "Say-tan," it would have been quite easy using that same phonetic system: use kana to write it as "Setan." It's basically what they did with Vegeta. The romanization of "Bejiita" doesn't match the English word spelling at all. They could have gotten it closer with "Begeta," but then the pronounciation would be totally wonky. In that case, they wrote it to match the pronounciation. However, in this case, for whatever reason (possibly ignorance, but I guess we'll never know for sure), Toriyama chose to write it and pronounce it the way he did.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

EDIT... Re: Piccolo Daimaoh

Yes, but it's his name, and he can pronounce it however he wants to. And he chose to pronounce it differently from the evil-incarnate devil he stole it from. Probably better for PR that way.

Seriously, though, I consider this totally different from "Torankusu." That's simply "Trunks" expressed as best as it could be in the Japanese phonetic system. My logic is, if they had wanted his name to be pronounced "Say-tan," it would have been quite easy using that same phonetic system: use kana to write it as "Setan." It's basically what they did with Vegeta. The romanization of "Bejiita" doesn't match the English word spelling at all. They could have gotten it closer with "Begeta," but then the pronounciation would be totally wonky. In that case, they wrote it to match the pronounciation. However, in this case, for whatever reason (possibly ignorance, but I guess we'll never know for sure), Toriyama chose to write it and pronounce it the way he did.

I'm not really understanding your Japanese example here. Sorry.


The Kana spelling of the English word "Satan" (サタン) is the same as it is in his name. Toriyama hasn't changed the Kana spelling of the pun here like he did with Zarbon, Appule, Burta and various other names.

[Gaffer Tape]

Exactly. That's my point. They adapted that name, and, for whatever reason, chose the English spelling over the English pronounciation. This is unlike Vegeta, where they wrote the name more in line with the English pronounciation of the word vegetable rather than the spelling.

Okay. So they basically screwed that up, but to me, that's irrelevant. It's still the character's name. It would be like me telling you you pronounce your own name wrong because it doesn't conform to the way the ancient Celts originally pronounced it (and before I get any flack for this, I obviously don't know your real name and am just using Celts in this hypothetical example).

Now, if Toriyama and DB were referring to the actual Satan character from the Judeo-Christian legacy (rather than just alluding to it through an entirely different character) and pronounced it "Sah-tan," then I might be more inclined to agree with you. But unlike Bulma's invention of the Micro Band (which also used spelling over pronounciation, coming out "Meecro") where it's just a word, this is his name.

[dan2026]

Doesn't that technically count as a late submission, considering like it seems like Toriyama just came up with it on the fly for the interview?

True but it doesn't technically retcon anything we knew from the show.
It was never established what Mr. Satan's first name was, so its just a bit of trivia.

But he has an English name, and it should be pronounced how it would normally be in said language. We don't pronounce "Trunks" as "Torankusu" just because we hear that in the show.

While I agree with you in essence. I also have trouble thinking of him as anything other than 'Mr Sah-tan'.
After watching the show for so long, pronouncing it 'Say-tan' seems weird even though it is correct.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

I see where both dan2026 and Gaffer Tape are coming from in saying that it's pronounced "Sah-tan" in the series and that's the pronounciation that I have been hearing for so long. But let me give my explanation.


サタン is the official Kana for the English word "Satan" and this same Kana appears in the character's name ミスター・サタン (Mr. Satan). While Toriyama could've written the character's name as ミスター・セイテン (Mr. Seiten) to better convey the pronounciation, it wouldn't transliterate to "Satan" in English anymore as the Kana has been changed.


サタン is pronounced "Sah-tan" in Japanese. That's just how Japanese people naturally pronounce it based on the spelling. Toriyama intended for his name to be a pun on the bibical character which is pronounced "Say-tin" in English (and by extention, Hebrew). But as I said before, this pronounciation can't be expressed without changing the name altogether.


We're not disrespecting Toriyama by changing the pronounciation of his name. We do this all the time: "Bejiita" to "Vegeta", "Torankusu" to "Trunks" etc. And just like these names, the pun is on an English word (Satan) and we should use the English pronounciation. You don't see people using "Torankusu" or such.


Wow, I really got off topic there but I've said what I needed to say.

[penguintruth]

I have to be honest, as much of a stickler I can be, I do not care how they pronounce "Satan" in the dub, as long as it isn't "Hercule".

And that he's played by Chris Rager.

[TripleRach]

This argument is getting ridiculous. "Satan" is not an English word. At least not originally. The English language and English-speaking countries are not the center of the universe, and Japanese can and does import loan words from other languages. Their pronunciation is more than likely based on another language's pronunciation. I don't know enough about the subject to guess which one, but IIRC, it was the Portuguese who first introduced Christianity to Japan. The idea that they were ignorant and didn't know how English speakers actually pronounce it is really close-minded and silly.

As far as how the word/name should be pronounced in Dragon Ball, I personally don't think it really matters. The Japanese pronunciation is identical to the way they pronounce the Judeo-Christian devil's name, so you can easily make an argument for using the English pronunciation when speaking English. But on the other hand, since he's a fictional character and not the Judeo-Christian devil, the way his name is pronounced on the original version of the show could also be considered the only "correct" pronunciation. I flip-flop between both pronunciations myself, but I don't really talk about the character aloud very often anyway.

To be more on-topic, I think that the Kai dub should totally go with the Japanese pronunciation, because they could also get away with using that on the edited TV dub. But they'd still have to edit the "SATAN CITY" signs to avoid riots, and I doubt it would happen anyway.

[Big Momma]

I wish you'd stop using the term "purist" like it's a bad thing.

And, yes, I do pronounce it "Sah-tan." I have for ten years. It's hard to watch the show and hear everyone calling him that (and chanting it) without saying it that way. And it's not just a loan word... it's his name.

I'm pretty sure that, in this case, it's just how the Japanese accent(for lack of a better word) pronounces it. It's the same word as "Say-tun", but their accent and how they speak the kana just makes it come out as "Sa-tan". The same could go with his first name. There's no doubt that it's "Mark", but they way they say it...it sounds like "Makku".

I personally don't care, either way, I'm just saying.


TripleRach does have a point though...for broadcasts sake...they could probably get away with using "Sa-tan". They probably won't even try...but still.

[Undercooked Sausage]

I always figured that the reason Satan was spelled "Satan" was because he was a "American" character(based off american pro wrestlers/Jessie Ventura) and therefore his name spelled as such. The only reason he speaks Japanese is that, well, every character in the show spoke Japanese.

It would not make sense for an American wrestler to name himself Mr. Seiten, don't know if I am making any sense, and since there is no proof of english or "Americans" in Dragon world it's really just Toriyama fucking around.

EDIT: to better clarify, let's say "Hulk Hogan" was in an episode of Dragonball Z. The pronunciation of his name would be fairly different than to a native English speakers. but Hulk Hogan's name is still spelled Hulk Hogan, no matter where he is in the world. Since "Mr. Satan" is inspired by Jessie Ventura, it is to be assumed that Toriyama would use a English name instead of changing it for a pun.

[Karrit]

I always figured that the reason Satan was spelled "Satan" was because he was a "American" character(based off american pro wrestlers/Jessie Ventura) and therefore his name spelled as such. The only reason he speaks Japanese is that, well, every character in the show spoke Japanese.

It would not make sense for an American wrestler to name himself Mr. Seiten, don't know if I am making any sense, and since there is no proof of english or "Americans" in Dragon world it's really just Toriyama fucking around.

EDIT: to better clarify, let's say "Hulk Hogan" was in an episode of Dragonball Z. The pronunciation of his name would be fairly different than to a native English speakers. but Hulk Hogan's name is still spelled Hulk Hogan, no matter where he is in the world. Since "Mr. Satan" is inspired by Jessie Ventura, it is to be assumed that Toriyama would use a English name instead of changing it for a pun.

I thought Mr. Satan was based on the late Count Dante:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_Dante

[jjgp1112]

In an interview with Shonen Jump (I think it was the first issue), Toriyama did say he was supposed to be like a pro wrestler.

[Karrit]

In an interview with Shonen Jump (I think it was the first issue), Toriyama did say he was supposed to be like a pro wrestler.

Interesting. Although I thought Count Dante was his larger-than-life myth and the name. Dante being a connection to Satan, derived from Dante's Inferno, which describes the nine levels of hell.

[bkev]

I don't think Toriyama's that deep... this is the man who's characters are often named after food, remember?

[jjgp1112]

Eh, scratch that, I went back and read that issue and it was just my memory playing tricks on me. The interviewer asked Toriyama if Mr Satan was inspired by Pro Wrestling characters and Toriyama said he's not much of a fan of wrestling.

[Karrit]

I don't think Toriyama's that deep... this is the man who's characters are often named after food, remember?

Hard to say, but it is possible. Dante was quite a character and his appearance is somewhat similar to Satan's. It's still an interesting theory though.

[Taku128]

Mr. Satan is his professional name and the only name given to him in the series proper.

Mark was revealed in an interview with Toriyama to be his real name, as it is an anagram of akuma.

Doesn't that technically count as a late submission, considering like it seems like Toriyama just came up with it on the fly for the interview?

How is that any different from the way he wrote the entire rest of the series?

[Rocketman]

In an interview with Shonen Jump (I think it was the first issue), Toriyama did say he was supposed to be like a pro wrestler.

Interesting. Although I thought Count Dante was his larger-than-life myth and the name. Dante being a connection to Satan, derived from Dante's Inferno, which describes the nine levels of hell.

Dante has no connection to Satan at all. Dante is a regular mortal man who gets taken on a tour of hell (and purgatory and heaven, but nobody remembers those two).