"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Rakurai]

It would be a nice touch if Frieza is motivated to find the legendary Super Saiyan of their universe with the intention to control that power after meeting Kale, which leads into the Broly saga. That feels like the most natural course of action instead of another random "Oh look I found another strong Saiyan!"

Nobody commenting this?

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1057 ... Fpage-5152

DBS manga is the legitimate/canonical sequel to DB manga. Nothing incorrect about that.

[FortuneSSJ]

ToP in the manga was a disaster compared to the anime. It didn't have a single memorable moment yet, so I'm not really looking forward to the final.
Bring in the next arc.

[PFM18]

It would be a nice touch if Frieza is motivated to find the legendary Super Saiyan of their universe with the intention to control that power after meeting Kale, which leads into the Broly saga. That feels like the most natural course of action instead of another random "Oh look I found another strong Saiyan!"

I totally agree. I'd like to see Freeza realizing that Universe 6 is our twin Universe so there must be a Universe 7 Legendary Super Saiyan and then embarking on a man hunt. It would be way more cohesive that way. Although I kind of expect it to just be Freeza's men going to massacre a planet and finding a crazy strong Saiyan or something like that.

[Miracles]

ToP in the manga was a disaster compared to the anime. It didn't have a single memorable moment yet, so I'm not really looking forward to the final.
Bring in the next arc.

I think you should save this comment for when the TOP for the manga is actually finished.
It's possible you may eat your words after next chapter.

[Shaddy]

One good chapter won't save an entire arc. And that's assuming it would be good at all.

[TKA]

Cool.

I think the manga did this arc about as well as you possibly could.

An entire arc being a tournament was a bad idea from the start, but the manga executed this as well as anyone could. It utilized and kept fidelity to the premise, it preserved characters' characterization throughout the chaos, the antagonist makes sense and is understandable and it's all building to a conclusion that plays into things that have been established in the most early chapters of Super.

The next chapter could be 30 pages of Jiren and Goku tongue kissing and the sum total of this arc would still be better than what the anime put out, to be honest.

[Lukmendes]

ToP in the manga was a disaster compared to the anime. It didn't have a single memorable moment yet, so I'm not really looking forward to the final.
Bring in the next arc.

I think you should save this comment for when the TOP for the manga is actually finished.
It's possible you may eat your words after next chapter.

Even if the last chapter is the most amazing thing that ever happened in dragon ball, won't really change the overall feeling that the manga is lacking in ToP.

[PFM18]

ToP in the manga was a disaster compared to the anime. It didn't have a single memorable moment yet, so I'm not really looking forward to the final.
Bring in the next arc.

I think you should save this comment for when the TOP for the manga is actually finished.
It's possible you may eat your words after next chapter.

Yeah even if this ends up being the most amazing chapter in existence, it wouldn't suddenly make them eat their words when the rest of the arc is crap.

Even if the last chapter is the most amazing thing that ever happened in dragon ball, won't really change the overall feeling that the manga is lacking in ToP.

lol you beat me to it.

An entire arc being a tournament was a bad idea from the start, but the manga executed this as well as anyone could. It utilized and kept fidelity to the premise, it preserved characters' characterization throughout the chaos, the antagonist makes sense and is understandable and it's all building to a conclusion that plays into things that have been established in the most early chapters of Super.

An entire arc being a tournament was a bad idea? What about the 21st, 22nd and 23rd Tenkaichi Budokais? They were all tournaments. And this one is a tournament with an entirely new format that has the biggest stakes we have seen yet. As if not screwing up the characterization of the characters is an achievement.

The next chapter could be 30 pages of Jiren and Goku tongue kissing and the sum total of this arc would still be better than what the anime put out, to be honest.

Couldn't disagree more. The anime's ToP features a laundry list of great character moments in addition to better fighting, although they could have done a much better job than they did, they explored the idea of other Universes blaming Goku for the tournament and seeing him as villainous, and it featured scenes with actual emotional weight instead of the manga's version of treating tossing entire Universes out of existence like tossing out an old pair of socks. It didn't provoke any emotion like the anime did, especially when you have a chapter that has a sequence where you have a four Universes being erased in an 8 page span.

[Son-Kakaroto]

I'm really glad this ToP arc is coming to an end. The manga has been pretty sucky in all arcs bar the future trunks which was okay. It's funny because the one of the few things the manga had going for it was decent power scailing (except for ssj2 vegeta > ssj black > base black >>>> ssj3 goku >= "full power" ssj2 trunks>>>>>>>>>>>> Base VEGETA = base goku) but toyotaro utterly ruined that in the ToP, lol. Let's see what this broly arc has to offer. I bet it's going to be rushed with medicore story telling. I wish we had a new author... sighs...

[TKA]

An entire arc being a tournament was a bad idea? What about the 21st, 22nd and 23rd Tenkaichi Budokais? They were all tournaments.

Those were the climaxes to different arcs, though. They were not entire arcs. Most of dragonball is adventure. Even the one arc in the original manga that was all fighting, the Saiyan arc, still had multiple chapters of build up to that fight and the arc had 3 acts.

The Tournament of Power was conceived as just a long fight scene. That's a tough sell. That's the kind of shit I expect from western dragonball fans who only care about the characters' stats and flash. So much more intricacies tend to be at play in dragonball story arcs.

So yes, it is conceptually a bad idea.

And this one is a tournament with an entirely new format that has the biggest stakes we have seen yet.

This is the only interesting aspect of the tournament of power. However, as has been made abundantly clear with this chapter versus the previous chapters: many people don't like a battle royale format and prefer fights with a single antagonist where characters can yell, flex, show off, power up and all that stuff. Many people don't like to see characters blindsided or robbed of their big "moments".

I rather enjoyed how Toyotaro structured this arc and the eliminations, since that keeps fidelity with the concept of a battle royale, while the anime completely flubbed that.

As if not screwing up the characterization of the characters is an achievement.

It is something to be lauded, yes. The fact that GT, Heroes, decades of video games, the Super anime and everything other non-Toriyama work has not been able to capture the characters' characters, you bet your ass it's an achievement.

[Son-Kakaroto]

An entire arc being a tournament was a bad idea? What about the 21st, 22nd and 23rd Tenkaichi Budokais? They were all tournaments.

Those were the climaxes to different arcs, though. They were not entire arcs. Most of dragonball is adventure. Even the one arc in the original manga that was all fighting, the Saiyan arc, still had multiple chapters of build up to that fight and the arc had 3 acts.

The Tournament of Power was conceived as just a long fight scene. That's a tough sell. That's the kind of shit I expect from western dragonball fans who only care about the characters' stats and flash. So much more intricacies tend to be at play in dragonball story arcs.

So yes, it is conceptually a bad idea.

And this one is a tournament with an entirely new format that has the biggest stakes we have seen yet.

This is the only interesting aspect of the tournament of power. However, as has been made abundantly clear with this chapter versus the previous chapters: many people don't like a battle royale format and prefer fights with a single antagonist where characters can yell, flex, show off, power up and all that stuff. Many people don't like to see characters blindsided or robbed of their big "moments".

I rather enjoyed how Toyotaro structured this arc and the eliminations, since that keeps fidelity with the concept of a battle royale, while the anime completely flubbed that.

As if not screwing up the characterization of the characters is an achievement.

It is something to be lauded, yes. The fact that GT, Heroes, decades of video games, the Super anime and everything other non-Toriyama work has not been able to capture the characters' characters, you bet your ass it's an achievement.

The manga ToP had rushed progression of story-telling which led to many lead characters getting shafted like Hit, toppo, piccolo etc. The power scaling was abymsal. So ultimate gohan is as strong as kefla whos stronger then kale whos stronger then mssj blue, but gohan is somehow not stronger then mssj blue?
The chapters barley flowed, the page lay-out is bad. The manga has just not been good for this ToP. It dosen't matter what the "concept" was (it wasn't even a bad concept...), the execution of the ToP in the manga was just bad. The anime actually made the ToP interesting. Including giving us some of the most memorable fights in DB history! While the manga was boring and flat to a lot of dragon ball fans. "concept idea" has little do to if you execute it bad.

[Alruneia]

The Tournament of Power was conceived as just a long fight scene. That's a tough sell. That's the kind of shit I expect from western dragonball fans who only care about the characters' stats and flash. So much more intricacies tend to be at play in dragonball story arcs. So yes, it is conceptually a bad idea.

I know this is a bit of a what-if, but what do you think Tori/Toyo/Toei/etc. should, or even could, have done to make the ToP more than just a long fight scene, as you put it?

[supersaiyanZero]

The Tournament of Power was conceived as just a long fight scene. That's a tough sell. That's the kind of shit I expect from western dragonball fans who only care about the characters' stats and flash. So much more intricacies tend to be at play in dragonball story arcs. So yes, it is conceptually a bad idea.

I know this is a bit of a what-if, but what do you think Tori/Toyo/Toei/etc. should, or even could, have done to make the ToP more than just a long fight scene, as you put it?

Actually write a goddamn story.

[Rakurai]

The manga ToP had rushed progression of story-telling which led to many lead characters getting shafted like Hit, toppo, piccolo etc. The power scaling was abymsal. So ultimate gohan is as strong as kefla whos stronger then kale whos stronger then mssj blue, but gohan is somehow not stronger then mssj blue?
The chapters barley flowed, the page lay-out is bad. The manga has just not been good for this ToP. It dosen't matter what the "concept" was (it wasn't even a bad concept...), the execution of the ToP in the manga was just bad. The anime actually made the ToP interesting. Including giving us some of the most memorable fights in DB history! While the manga was boring and flat to a lot of dragon ball fans. "concept idea" has little do to if you execute it bad.

Dragon Ball is not about giving characters moments to shine. That was never DB's style to begin with. Just because your favorite character didn't have a dedicated single chapter doesn't make them shafted. That's why Super anime's ToP progression was very unseemly of DB. Piccolo has been "shafted" since Android saga. Hit got eliminated by the strongest fighter in the ToP bar UI Goku. Toppo played his role in the exhibition match and got plenty of panel time in the ToP.

I totally agree. I'd like to see Freeza realizing that Universe 6 is our twin Universe so there must be a Universe 7 Legendary Super Saiyan and then embarking on a man hunt. It would be way more cohesive that way. Although I kind of expect it to just be Freeza's men going to massacre a planet and finding a crazy strong Saiyan or something like that.

The manga had the right set-up, pitting Frieza against the LSSJ of U6, experiencing the power first-hand. It can do so much more with the concept now that Broly is a thing.

I would be extremely disappointed if it ended up with Paragus searching for Frieza instead of the other way around.

[Miracles]

ToP in the manga was a disaster compared to the anime. It didn't have a single memorable moment yet, so I'm not really looking forward to the final.
Bring in the next arc.

I think you should save this comment for when the TOP for the manga is actually finished.
It's possible you may eat your words after next chapter.

Yeah even if this ends up being the most amazing chapter in existence, it wouldn't suddenly make them eat their words when the rest of the arc is crap.

ToP in the manga was a disaster compared to the anime. It didn't have a single memorable moment yet, so I'm not really looking forward to the final.
Bring in the next arc.

I think you should save this comment for when the TOP for the manga is actually finished.
It's possible you may eat your words after next chapter.

Even if the last chapter is the most amazing thing that ever happened in dragon ball, won't really change the overall feeling that the manga is lacking in ToP.

The manga from a structure standpoint handled the TOP better than the anime. The way it didn't waste time on fodder but actually used them to develop the stronger characters.
Now I understand why people are saying the anime's TOP is better than the manga but that is only due to emotional aspect because it has advantage with visual, visible and musical arts.
Besides, only a handful of fights were memorable from the anime's TOP and they were mostly the Goku vs Jiren special Goku vs Kefla and the last fight between them. The rest of the TOP was mediocre and bad.

[reecehoward]

I think you should save this comment for when the TOP for the manga is actually finished.
It's possible you may eat your words after next chapter.

Yeah even if this ends up being the most amazing chapter in existence, it wouldn't suddenly make them eat their words when the rest of the arc is crap.

I think you should save this comment for when the TOP for the manga is actually finished.
It's possible you may eat your words after next chapter.

Even if the last chapter is the most amazing thing that ever happened in dragon ball, won't really change the overall feeling that the manga is lacking in ToP.

The manga from a structure standpoint handled the TOP better than the anime. The way it didn't waste time on fodder but actually used them to develop the stronger characters.
Now I understand why people are saying the anime's TOP is better than the manga but that is only due to emotional aspect because it has advantage with visual, visible and musical arts.
Besides, only a handful of fights were memorable from the anime's TOP and they were mostly the Goku vs Jiren special Goku vs Kefla and the last fight between them. The rest of the TOP was mediocre and bad.

How were stronger characters developed? Only Jiren and Kale were treated as legitimate threats. Out of 70 other contestants, only two were legitimate threats.lol

[alakazam^]

An entire arc being a tournament was a bad idea? What about the 21st, 22nd and 23rd Tenkaichi Budokais? They were all tournaments.

Those were the climaxes to different arcs, though. They were not entire arcs. Most of dragonball is adventure. Even the one arc in the original manga that was all fighting, the Saiyan arc, still had multiple chapters of build up to that fight and the arc had 3 acts.

The Tournament of Power was conceived as just a long fight scene. That's a tough sell. That's the kind of shit I expect from western dragonball fans who only care about the characters' stats and flash. So much more intricacies tend to be at play in dragonball story arcs.

So yes, it is conceptually a bad idea.

And this one is a tournament with an entirely new format that has the biggest stakes we have seen yet.

This is the only interesting aspect of the tournament of power. However, as has been made abundantly clear with this chapter versus the previous chapters: many people don't like a battle royale format and prefer fights with a single antagonist where characters can yell, flex, show off, power up and all that stuff. Many people don't like to see characters blindsided or robbed of their big "moments".

I rather enjoyed how Toyotaro structured this arc and the eliminations, since that keeps fidelity with the concept of a battle royale, while the anime completely flubbed that.

As if not screwing up the characterization of the characters is an achievement.

It is something to be lauded, yes. The fact that GT, Heroes, decades of video games, the Super anime and everything other non-Toriyama work has not been able to capture the characters' characters, you bet your ass it's an achievement.

The 22nd Tenkaichi Budoukai wasn't the climax of the Red Ribbon arc, no matter if Tenshinhan was Tao Baibai's student or not. And I don't know what Tournament of Power arc are you referring to because this one had that build up you mentioned, in both the anime and manga. And even if the tournament had started in chapter one, it never was a "long fight scene". So no, it never was a bad idea in the slightest, it was actually pretty interesting.

Yeah, because that's what tournament arcs are made for in the first place: spectacle, flash, interactions, characters and story. Everyone would hate a battle royal where one character would make a ki explosion in the first second of the fight and push out everyone else off bounds. Chaos for the sake of chaos doesn't work and doesn't even exist so Toei had the right approach of depicting that initial chaos and then shifting focus again and again to make things fresh. Toyotarou did the same in his own way but Toei had enough time to expand on it while he didn't.

Yeah, it's a great achievement that Toyotarou needs daddy Toriyama to re-write his dialogues and re-draw his layouts and characters. It really shows he understands the characters, right?

[SSJgogeto]

Cover of volume 8:

[Lukmendes]

I think you should save this comment for when the TOP for the manga is actually finished.
It's possible you may eat your words after next chapter.

Yeah even if this ends up being the most amazing chapter in existence, it wouldn't suddenly make them eat their words when the rest of the arc is crap.

I think you should save this comment for when the TOP for the manga is actually finished.
It's possible you may eat your words after next chapter.

Even if the last chapter is the most amazing thing that ever happened in dragon ball, won't really change the overall feeling that the manga is lacking in ToP.

The manga from a structure standpoint handled the TOP better than the anime. The way it didn't waste time on fodder but actually used them to develop the stronger characters.
Now I understand why people are saying the anime's TOP is better than the manga but that is only due to emotional aspect because it has advantage with visual, visible and musical arts.
Besides, only a handful of fights were memorable from the anime's TOP and they were mostly the Goku vs Jiren special Goku vs Kefla and the last fight between them. The rest of the TOP was mediocre and bad.

I'm not even comparing manga ToP with anime ToP, I actualy only watched 3 episodes from it, and of those 3, one I liked, one I disliked, and the last one is so forgettable I, well, forgot about it, I just find the manga ToP boring and I don't need to have watched the (supposedly) better version to think so, manga ToP started good though.

Anyways, I don't agree about the manga using fodder to "develop" stronger characters means anything good, She-Broly elimitated a bunch of universes in a few panels, does that tell me how strong she is? No, because I have no idea how strong those guys are supposed to be, even when defeated that fused guy I wouldn't be able to tell how strong she's supposed to be since we don't know how strong he is in comparison with everyone else, however, when she was slapping Golden Freeza around and briefly overwhelmed CSSGSS Goku, that tells me how strong she is, and that happened before she went on an elimitation spree, so her defeating a bunch of fodder did nothing to develop her.

[Miracles]

Yeah even if this ends up being the most amazing chapter in existence, it wouldn't suddenly make them eat their words when the rest of the arc is crap.

Even if the last chapter is the most amazing thing that ever happened in dragon ball, won't really change the overall feeling that the manga is lacking in ToP.

The manga from a structure standpoint handled the TOP better than the anime. The way it didn't waste time on fodder but actually used them to develop the stronger characters.
Now I understand why people are saying the anime's TOP is better than the manga but that is only due to emotional aspect because it has advantage with visual, visible and musical arts.
Besides, only a handful of fights were memorable from the anime's TOP and they were mostly the Goku vs Jiren special Goku vs Kefla and the last fight between them. The rest of the TOP was mediocre and bad.

How were stronger characters developed? Only Jiren and Kale were treated as legitimate threats. Out of 70 other contestants, only two were legitimate threats.lol

You didn't see how Freeza used Frost to eliminate U9? He also used Tien and Krillian as sacrifices to gain Frost trust too. This demonstrated Freeza's devious persona. Kale wasting Uni's etc...
Even Hit was better developed in the manga. Overcoming his weakness of relying on time skip and actually honing what matters in DB, battle power.

Yeah even if this ends up being the most amazing chapter in existence, it wouldn't suddenly make them eat their words when the rest of the arc is crap.

Even if the last chapter is the most amazing thing that ever happened in dragon ball, won't really change the overall feeling that the manga is lacking in ToP.

The manga from a structure standpoint handled the TOP better than the anime. The way it didn't waste time on fodder but actually used them to develop the stronger characters.
Now I understand why people are saying the anime's TOP is better than the manga but that is only due to emotional aspect because it has advantage with visual, visible and musical arts.
Besides, only a handful of fights were memorable from the anime's TOP and they were mostly the Goku vs Jiren special Goku vs Kefla and the last fight between them. The rest of the TOP was mediocre and bad.

I'm not even comparing manga ToP with anime ToP, I actualy only watched 3 episodes from it, and of those 3, one I liked, one I disliked, and the last one is so forgettable I, well, forgot about it, I just find the manga ToP boring and I don't need to have watched the (supposedly) better version to think so, manga ToP started good though.

Anyways, I don't agree about the manga using fodder to "develop" stronger characters means anything good, She-Broly elimitated a bunch of universes in a few panels, does that tell me how strong she is? No, because I have no idea how strong those guys are supposed to be, even when defeated that fused guy I wouldn't be able to tell how strong she's supposed to be since we don't know how strong he is in comparison with everyone else, however, when she was slapping Golden Freeza around and briefly overwhelmed CSSGSS Goku, that tells me how strong she is, and that happened before she went on an elimitation spree, so her defeating a bunch of fodder did nothing to develop her.

It did develop how strong Kale is cause the TOP was about attrition. When she can spar with Golden freeza and Blue Goku then go and waste other universes untied fronts, especially with the fusion of Aniliza, it demonstrates the power of the legendary SSJ. No need for long drawn out battles with fodder when you can slap them around like children.