Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

Ultimate Gohan is blue level and some. In the manga he was able to fight a fusion made of a character who is blue level and in the anime he made Goku use Blue KK to beat him.

His fight with Goku isn't really the best indication considering Super Saiyan Blue Goku has fought everyone from Krillin to Merged Zamasu.

In the manga, when Krillin was watching Gohan fight Goku he said he wondered if he could surpass him if he were to train more so he wouldn't be as strong as Goku there.

Little more unclear in the anime but Toppo wasn't damaged at all by Gohan's Kamehameha but he was by Goku's in the Zen Exhibition. He also wasn't that far above Dyspo whereas Golden Frieza was even faster than him.

Gohan was able to trade blows with "Hyper speed mode Dyspo" who was above Golden Freeza, who was equal to Goku Blue. Goku going Blue against Kuririn and stacking KK on Blue Blue isn't the same scenario.

I'm not saying Gohan is stronger than Goku BTW. Gohan is not CSSB level in the manga nor is he KK Blue level. He is slightly above Blue at best.

Gohan in the anime is on the level of SSB but still weaker. he still isnt "SSB level and then some." Otherwise Toppo wouldnt have easily tanked his KHH with no damage. Goku just used KK for dramatic affect.

manga Gohan is irrationally, ridiculously strong.

Except Gohan was able to trade blows with "Hyper speed mode" Dyspo. Who was above Golden Freeza who is blue level. Gohan losing to KK Blue was definitely proven to be the case when battling Dyspo head up.

[Bullza]

Gohan was able to trade blows with "Hyper speed mode Dyspo" who was above Golden Freeza, who was equal to Goku Blue.

He wasn't using that Hyper Mode when Gohan fought him remember? Golden Frieza trapped the pair of them in his laser cage so that Dyspo couldn't use it because he was hitting the laser so he was using his regular speed presumably.

[PFM18]

Ultimate Gohan is blue level and some. In the manga he was able to fight a fusion made of a character who is blue level and in the anime he made Goku use Blue KK to beat him.

As for Beerus, really guys, I would leave him alone. He is protected by the story. Toriyama himself has said he keeps Beerus around cause it gives Goku and Vegeta a future.
Toriyama also stated he has no plans of Beerus being surpassed by Goku shortly before the future Trunks arc. In order for Beerus to be surpassed, it will be explicitly shown, due to Goku's "destined" battle with him.

Gohan in the anime is on the level of SSB but still weaker. he still isnt "SSB level and then some." Otherwise Toppo wouldnt have easily tanked his KHH with no damage. Goku just used KK for dramatic affect.

manga Gohan is irrationally, ridiculously strong.

Gohan in the manga is also slightly weaker than SSB Goku.

I mean it's kind of a grey area because from what we see with Kale's fight with Goku, and shes a fusion that should be way stronger than the fusees and Vados implies that she's the strongest out there and then Krillin implies that he is weaker than SSB Goku.

Gohan was able to trade blows with "Hyper speed mode Dyspo" who was above Golden Freeza, who was equal to Goku Blue.

He wasn't using that Hyper Mode when Gohan fought him remember? Golden Frieza trapped the pair of them in his laser cage so that Dyspo couldn't use it because he was hitting the laser so he was using his regular speed presumably.

Little more unclear in the anime but Toppo wasn't damaged at all by Gohan's Kamehameha but he was by Goku's in the Zen Exhibition. He also wasn't that far above Dyspo whereas Golden Frieza was even faster than him.

Yeah exactly.

[Miracles]

Gohan was able to trade blows with "Hyper speed mode Dyspo" who was above Golden Freeza, who was equal to Goku Blue.

He wasn't using that Hyper Mode when Gohan fought him remember? Golden Frieza trapped the pair of them in his laser cage so that Dyspo couldn't use it because he was hitting the laser so he was using his regular speed presumably.

Yeah I forgot...Did Belmound say Dyspo couldn't use the Hyper speed mode in the cage?

[Bullza]

Yeah I forgot...Did Belmound say Dyspo couldn't use the Hyper speed mode in the cage?

He says that if he does use it then he'll damage himself.

Though now I look at it again, he does still have have the purple aura from that mode during the first half of the fight with Gohan so I think may have still been using it. Gohan was still holding his own too though Piccolo does say his attacks are landing because his movement is limited so he shouldn't have been able to hit him otherwise.

Once he drops the purple aura then Gohan really starts pushing him back.

[Bergamo]

Gohan in the anime is on the level of SSB but still weaker. he still isnt "SSB level and then some." Otherwise Toppo wouldnt have easily tanked his KHH with no damage. Goku just used KK for dramatic affect.

manga Gohan is irrationally, ridiculously strong.

Gohan in the manga is also slightly weaker than SSB Goku.

I mean it's kind of a grey area because from what we see with Kale's fight with Goku, and shes a fusion that should be way stronger than the fusees and Vados implies that she's the strongest out there and then Krillin implies that he is weaker than SSB Goku.

Gohan was able to trade blows with "Hyper speed mode Dyspo" who was above Golden Freeza, who was equal to Goku Blue.

He wasn't using that Hyper Mode when Gohan fought him remember? Golden Frieza trapped the pair of them in his laser cage so that Dyspo couldn't use it because he was hitting the laser so he was using his regular speed presumably.

Little more unclear in the anime but Toppo wasn't damaged at all by Gohan's Kamehameha but he was by Goku's in the Zen Exhibition. He also wasn't that far above Dyspo whereas Golden Frieza was even faster than him.

Yeah exactly.

Vados said that Kefla may turn out to be the strongest, but once Kefla fights Gohan, her limits are clear. It's also important to note that Vados mentions that Kefla is comprised of Kale's strength and Caulifla's skill, and Kahserol says that Kefla's moves are better than Kale while making no mention of a power increase. It's debatable whether or not Kefla is stronger than FP Kale at all, but she is for sure no stronger than Gohan.

[PFM18]

Gohan in the manga is also slightly weaker than SSB Goku.

I mean it's kind of a grey area because from what we see with Kale's fight with Goku, and shes a fusion that should be way stronger than the fusees and Vados implies that she's the strongest out there and then Krillin implies that he is weaker than SSB Goku.

He wasn't using that Hyper Mode when Gohan fought him remember? Golden Frieza trapped the pair of them in his laser cage so that Dyspo couldn't use it because he was hitting the laser so he was using his regular speed presumably.

Little more unclear in the anime but Toppo wasn't damaged at all by Gohan's Kamehameha but he was by Goku's in the Zen Exhibition. He also wasn't that far above Dyspo whereas Golden Frieza was even faster than him.

Yeah exactly.

Vados said that Kefla may turn out to be the strongest, but once Kefla fights Gohan, her limits are clear. It's also important to note that Vados mentions that Kefla is comprised of Kale's strength and Caulifla's skill, and Kahserol says that Kefla's moves are better than Kale while making no mention of a power increase. It's debatable whether or not Kefla is stronger than FP Kale at all, but she is for sure no stronger than Gohan.

Vados had just seen Goku and Jiren fight and she is still talking about Kefla being the best. She's meant to be an intelligent God it doesn't make much sense for her to be horribly mistaken even if she wasn't 100% certain on the matter. And I thought Kahseral's verbatim was "She's on another level" or something to that effect. And what reason would there be for Kefla to not be stronger than Kale? Potara fusion is supposed to be a monumental boost even if it is diminished by the fact that the gap between Caulifla and Kale have a large gap.

And I never said Kefla was stronger than Gohan.

[Bergamo]

I mean it's kind of a grey area because from what we see with Kale's fight with Goku, and shes a fusion that should be way stronger than the fusees and Vados implies that she's the strongest out there and then Krillin implies that he is weaker than SSB Goku.




Yeah exactly.

Vados said that Kefla may turn out to be the strongest, but once Kefla fights Gohan, her limits are clear. It's also important to note that Vados mentions that Kefla is comprised of Kale's strength and Caulifla's skill, and Kahserol says that Kefla's moves are better than Kale while making no mention of a power increase. It's debatable whether or not Kefla is stronger than FP Kale at all, but she is for sure no stronger than Gohan.

Vados had just seen Goku and Jiren fight and she is still talking about Kefla being the best. She's meant to be an intelligent God it doesn't make much sense for her to be horribly mistaken even if she wasn't 100% certain on the matter. And I thought Kahseral's verbatim was "She's on another level" or something to that effect. And what reason would there be for Kefla to not be stronger than Kale? Potara fusion is supposed to be a monumental boost even if it is diminished by the fact that the gap between Caulifla and Kale have a large gap.

And I never said Kefla was stronger than Gohan.

It's not that Vados was horribly mistaken, It's more of Vados speculating about Kefla. Kefla hadn't really shown off her abilities besides beating up fodder pride troopers, so no matter how smart Vados is, she literally cannot know how much power Kefla is yet to unveil.

About Kefla being stronger than Kale, she is obviously stronger than Kale at her current level, but at the time of the fusion she had been badly beaten by the pride troopers and her power had dropped off. This is why FP Kale could possibly be as strong as Kefla.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

In essence, this boils down to major differences between how characters are portrayed between mediums.

Toyotaro tends to bring some of the characters down with weaknesses or limitations, whilst Toei upscales others through power-ups to keep up with otherwise ludicrous but still logical levels.

[Bullza]

I don't want to go into the Future Trunks Saga stuff much yet because I haven't got around to rewatching it and I want to pay attention at the time but how strong do people think Trunks is really?

Would Base Trunks easily beat the tar out of Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks? He'd appear to be at least stronger than Super Saiyan Kid Trunks so he should be well beyond any of the Base Saiyans in Z

Being as Cabba is as strong as Vegeta he also would be far above Gotenks. Would Trunks be more powerful than Cabba in the same forms and beyond?

It'd seem so as Super Saiyan Cabba was knocked unconscious from a small hit from Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta. Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was hit more times by the same Vegeta and also by Super Saiyan Rose Black but he still stayed awake.

[SayianBeyondGod]

I don't want to go into the Future Trunks Saga stuff much yet because I haven't got around to rewatching it and I want to pay attention at the time but how strong do people think Trunks is really?

Would Base Trunks easily beat the tar out of Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks? He'd appear to be at least stronger than Super Saiyan Kid Trunks so he should be well beyond any of the Base Saiyans in Z

SSJ2 Trunks was enough to push Goku to use SSJ3. Even when SSJ2 Goku fought Base Black, Trunks claims Black was holding back and he also stated prior that Black was more powerful than SSJ3 Goku. Most likely Trunks must've tangled with Black using more power than SSJ2 and SSJ3 Goku. One of the resistance fighters claimed Trunks at some point slatemated Black but we don't know how strong Black was at the point. But to conclude SSJ2 Trunks should be above SSJ2 even not SSJ3 Goku. So considering Trunks is above Goku in the same form and the same Goku should be stronger than the one the rival the copy Vegeta that foddered SSJ3 Gotenks, then base Trunks should be able to beat the tar out of SSJ3 Gotenks but in a more humiliating fashion.

When going into SSJ Rage Goku Black was holding his own agasint SSR Black and even incapacaited him initially even when needing to preserve stamina to face Zamasu, so his rivals the Blue tier. After seeing both Goku and Vegeta going all out in Blue against fused Zamasu, Gowasu was surprised by Trunks SSJ Rage form power, this can imply Trunks being more powerful than Vegeta and Goku in Blue form at the time.

Being as Cabba is as strong as Vegeta he also would be far above Gotenks. Would Trunks be more powerful than Cabba in the same forms and beyond?

This doesn't make sense, SSJ Vegeta was seen casually one hand deflecting dozens of ki blast as well as casually taking a punch to the head without flinching from SSJ enraged Cabba. So clearly Base Vegeta(without holding back like prior) should be above base Cabba base off the presented feats rather than statements. Vegeta was probaly implying Cabba is on pair with his supressed form or relative to him.


Furthermore the same Vegeta in the U6 arc isn't strong as the copy Vegeta in the filler arc as Vegeta would've gotten stronger later on, even Goku mentioned this when facing copy Vegeta. Going back to Cabba, if we take into account what I said prior about Trunks power compared to Goku then it's obvious that base Trunks is more powerful than base Cabba.

[SSJgogeto]

I don't want to go into the Future Trunks Saga stuff much yet because I haven't got around to rewatching it and I want to pay attention at the time but how strong do people think Trunks is really?

Well, the answer will depend of which theory you believe, I suppose.

[BlueBasilisk]

I'd say Future Trunks is about on par with base form Goku and Vegeta, maybe a bit weaker. When SS2 Trunks 'fought' SS2 Goku he was able to push him back a bit but Goku didn't seem to have much trouble stopping his blows once he went off the defensive and he was easily crushed by SS3. I also don't think Trunks' rage form was as strong as people think it is. He was able to blow Black away with the Galick Gun when they first fought, but Black wasn't really hurt by it at all. If I recall he scoffed that he might get a bruise from it and didn't have much trouble manhandling Trunks after that. It also looked like Trunks was mostly on the defensive against Fused Zamasu too until he absorbed the energy for the Sword of Hope. He slashed Zamasu across the chest but it easily healed.

[RecolorSaiyan]

F Trunks in episode 63 knocked SS Rose black out temporarily with his galick gun, he was even able to slug it out somewhat with Corrupted Zamasu BEFORE the spirit sword.

In base, I'd say Trunks was more or less comparable to Goku and Vegeta so yeah he should be able to wreck anything from Z without the need to transform

[Bullza]

I don't know how much stock people would place in it but the Super Dragon Heroes anime opening does shown Trunks, Goku and Vegeta (the DBS versions as well) all fighting each other equally.

So if Base Goku and Vegeta are still meant to be above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks then by extension Base Trunks should be as well.

I'd definitely say he was comparable to Goku in the same form and so stronger than Cabba considering he has Super Saiyan 2 as well.

So what are the explanations for how Trunks was able to get that strong in just 8 years when he has no Gravity Machine, no Sparring Partner, no Whis and no King Kai's Planet to train on?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I don't know how much stock people would place in it but the Super Dragon Heroes anime opening does shown Trunks, Goku and Vegeta (the DBS versions as well) all fighting each other equally.

So if Base Goku and Vegeta are still meant to be above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks then by extension Base Trunks should be as well.

I'd definitely say he was comparable to Goku in the same form and so stronger than Cabba considering he has Super Saiyan 2 as well.

So what are the explanations for how Trunks was able to get that strong in just 8 years when he has no Gravity Machine, no Sparring Partner, no Whis and no King Kai's Planet to train on?

Half-Saiyan; actually gives a damn about training himself up despite having defeated 17, 18, Cell, and Dabura; several years of time; Shin getting into contact with and presumably giving him some training; and finally fighting with Goku Black who inherited Goku's Saiyan body fresh with his Kaioshin Ki.

[RecolorSaiyan]

I don't know how much stock people would place in it but the Super Dragon Heroes anime opening does shown Trunks, Goku and Vegeta (the DBS versions as well) all fighting each other equally.

So if Base Goku and Vegeta are still meant to be above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks then by extension Base Trunks should be as well.

I'd definitely say he was comparable to Goku in the same form and so stronger than Cabba considering he has Super Saiyan 2 as well.

So what are the explanations for how Trunks was able to get that strong in just 8 years when he has no Gravity Machine, no Sparring Partner, no Whis and no King Kai's Planet to train on?

I mean, training gains are whatever the story requires for you to be relevant. Gohan basically used one night with Piccolo + the ToP to become ssg-ssb tier in both versions of the story so Trunks becoming on par with goku in equal golden forms isn't so crazy.

[ZombieVito]

I don't know how much stock people would place in it but the Super Dragon Heroes anime opening does shown Trunks, Goku and Vegeta (the DBS versions as well) all fighting each other equally.

So if Base Goku and Vegeta are still meant to be above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks then by extension Base Trunks should be as well.

I'd definitely say he was comparable to Goku in the same form and so stronger than Cabba considering he has Super Saiyan 2 as well.

So what are the explanations for how Trunks was able to get that strong in just 8 years when he has no Gravity Machine, no Sparring Partner, no Whis and no King Kai's Planet to train on?

Training gains are never consistent. You are as strong as the plot demans.

I explain it by Trunks fighting Black to death for a year.

He could have gotten many zenkais but also he could have just adapted to Black and grown stronger like Saiyans do as confirmed by Toriyama in an 2013 interview.

[BlueBasilisk]

What about Future Dabura? I'd imagine he's stronger than the one in the present since he's what, about 20 years older? Lately the video games have been power creeping him to be way stronger than Cell.

[Bullza]

The newest episode of Super Dragon Ball Heroes is out. Now there's nothing that directly would imply such a thing at all, but it made me wonder if Super Saiyan Blue Goku with the Kaio-ken x20 is maybe being portrayed as stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Vegito?

No? Probably not?

Other than that Fu probably is ridiculously strong and for whatever reason Goku thinks Super Saiyan is going to be of use.