The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Super Vegetto]

I have Cui at 11,500. Vegeta killed him with a Kiai attack, there is no way Cui is at 18,000.

Well didnt Freeza sad in manga that Cui is much stronger than Vegeta when he was on earth ? Dodoria states Vegeta was never above 18,000 which means Freeza knowd Vegeta max was 18,000 and he says Cui is much stronger,,,i dont get that part but Daizenshuu clearly correct that yust like Cuis words,,,meaninig Vegeta equal to Cui and Vegeta 24,000 owns Cui who was 18,000....

You know, I was answering to the guy who said Nappa should be be at 6,500, so I wasn't being serious about it. My point is that if someone can say that the battle powers in the guidebooks are "wrong", I can also say the same about the battle powers in the manga.

Yes guidebooks > fan words...

[Son_Gohan]

Dude, you're just making stuff up now. It was never suggested that C18 didn't use her full strength. You also make assumptions like her not being able to sense Ki although her statements and actions suggest otherwise.

If #18 were using her full strength during hand-to-hand combat she would've at least broken a sweat. I truthfully never had seen her demonstrate the ability to sense Ki up till then, it sure would've come in handy in recognizing Mighty Mask as being composed of two different people instead of just judging by his seemingly odd body. But if there's evidence of her being capable up till that point then feel free to share it, just saying there is doesn't really tell me much.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The Series Androids versus the Movie Androids.

17 and 18 find themselves in a 2-vs-3 battle against 13, 14, and 15. If this is too unfair in 17 and 18's favor, then 14 and 15 may be sacrificed so the twins are fighting two-on-one against Super 13 instead. If THAT'S too unfair in Super 13's favor, then 16 may join the fray to help 17 and 18.

I guess #8, #19, #20 & Cell aren't there, right?

[Super Vegetto]

So what's with all the talk about Fusion being so awesome if Goten and Trunks fused isn't even as strong as base Goku?

It was awesome because they achieved ssj3 as little kids with fusion. It tells us that ssj3 was The destined transformation to take boo out the entire time. You need to remember that Goku took Gotenks as a huge gamble and he said they needed a miracle. That miracle ended up being ssj3.

The Daizenshuus state Gotenks surpassed majin vegeta after rosat training. Which means He went through a true multiplier that way and held his own against super boo

Wow i got fealing i already seen this somewhere,,same comments about Kid buu > Super buu and that Gotenks Gohan and no one else can beat Kid buu exept Goku ssj3,,,first Kid buu is weaker form but not the weakest,,Kid Buu is Buu's true form. Majin Buu is his weakened form after absorbing Daio Kai and suppressing his evil. Super Buu is his powered up form. How can we come to this conclusion? Well it is stated explicitly in the manga, AND Super Buu was even to SSJ3 Gotenks, who is stronger than SSJ3 Goku who stood toe to toe with Kid Buu. Logic is your friend, use it.Still did you forget about Goku telling we are no match for him even now or something like that meaning Super buu > Goku ssj3 Vegeta ssj2..now if you say Goku didnt what to use that form becasue of his living body or becuase of Vegeta that is stupid especily small like fly whic happend after he sad he cant beat him,,,True is that Goku underestimated Kid buu yust like Vegeta when he returned in his original form,,in manga after they remove Fat buu he started changing in his first absorbation of South Kai which cleary Goku states his power is incrising and again he started to change which Vegeta reply with "He is a midget" not knowing anything about his full power or his evil and dangerous side,,Now Ultra buu > Kid buu as i sad beacause when he changed in Ultra buu its stated that he is getting stronger and thats yust proof of Buuf or Ultra buu > Original buu,,,its more like transformation from ssj2 to ssj3 to ssj1,,he is getting stronger when he goes buuf but in his original form his transformtion is weaker..
And Gohan is the stronger unfused characters and if you have eyes you should know that,,the thing about daizenshuu telling Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the others,,, did you ever think about his base surpassed Vegeta ssj2 cuz he didnt stand chance in base against Majin buu while Vegeta ssj2 gived him some beating which cleary wasnt enough,,,Goku counted on Gotenks to only go ssj1 which could be enough like his ssj3 so after some traning in time chamber he becomes stronger than Goku ssj3 in his ssj1 form,,but then Super buu comes which is far stronger than Fat buu and only choice is to make ssj3 cuz cleray ssj2 Gotenks wouldnt stand a chance since Evil buu dominated Fat buu and now they are both in one,, Super buu,,,yust dont tell Goku in ssj3 is stronger cuz its more like fan thing of making him look strong yust like Toei does it everytime,,,its always like this: Gohan > Gotenks ssj3 > Super buu > Kid buu > Gotenks ssj1 in time chamber > Goku ssj3...

[dbgtFO]

@dbgtFO

I don't see how that indicates he stopped focusing on power. He still makes several comments about power straight afterwards lol

Given that fights are generally won with superior power and speed in Dragon Ball, I wouldn't be surprised. I guess I should have worded my post differently, as power obviously matters a lot throughout the entire series making it weird not to be focused on it(Vegeta still has a focus on power after making that line). So in line with his line, I'm going to reword it:
Vegeta destroyed his scouter, so it's possible this was the point, he stopped being focused just on power.

If #18 were using her full strength during hand-to-hand combat she would've at least broken a sweat.

Not when you have infinite energy.

[Super Vegetto]

Looks like the thread needs to be put back on track... again.

The Series Androids versus the Movie Androids.

17 and 18 find themselves in a 2-vs-3 battle against 13, 14, and 15. If this is too unfair in 17 and 18's favor, then 14 and 15 may be sacrificed so the twins are fighting two-on-one against Super 13 instead. If THAT'S too unfair in Super 13's favor, then 16 may join the fray to help 17 and 18.

Goku Vegeta and Trunks are only ssj1 which means they didnt enter time chamber but for Piccolo i would say he still didnt fuse with Kami,,reason is because some movies are like what if story while some movies like Bojack unbound goes perfectly with timeline,,i would say Vegeta destroyed 19 and Piccolo destroy 20 which means they never fought 17 and 18 because only Gero can relise them,,thats my opinion since i whatched movie long ago and Gohan is still young,,,also Trunks use his sword which is destroyed by Android 18 i think,,so 17 and 18 beat 14 and 15 and 13 with no problems in my opinion..then Super 13 have some troubles with 17 and 18 but in time he manages to beat them,,,but if 16 is with 17 and 18 Super 13 probably doesnt stand a chance cuz 16 is above Piccolo(Kami) which is like 17 and 18 and he can take down Cells imperfect form...but I'm not sure still how much Super 13 would be against 17 or 18 or both since they prowed strong against Vegeta and Trunks while Super 13 doesnt even feel the punches from them but dont forget its a movie so everything is diffrent in movie,,my opinion is that even 16 wouldnt feel any punch from them so i would say 17 and 18 with 16 beat Super 13 no problems...but 16 vs Super 13 i still say 16 mostly because of timeline...

[Son_Gohan]

Not when you have infinite energy.

It wouldn't be to show that she would get tired, but that she was actually exerting effort to the degree that Mighty Mask was shown, since he is the only one that's drawn with it there. #18 only begins to sweat after Trunks fires his Ki attack and is shown to take it more seriously.

[Fox666]

If #18 were using her full strength during hand-to-hand combat she would've at least broken a sweat. I truthfully never had seen her demonstrate the ability to sense Ki up till then, it sure would've come in handy in recognizing Mighty Mask as being composed of two different people instead of just judging by his seemingly odd body. But if there's evidence of her being capable up till that point then feel free to share it, just saying there is doesn't really tell me much.

The manga is very clear about No.17 and 18 being unable to sense Ki, and constantly required No.16 to tell them about the ability of their opponents.

[FNF]

Dude, you're just making stuff up now. It was never suggested that C18 didn't use her full strength. You also make assumptions like her not being able to sense Ki although her statements and actions suggest otherwise.

If #18 were using her full strength during hand-to-hand combat she would've at least broken a sweat. I truthfully never had seen her demonstrate the ability to sense Ki up till then, it sure would've come in handy in recognizing Mighty Mask as being composed of two different people instead of just judging by his seemingly odd body. But if there's evidence of her being capable up till that point then feel free to share it, just saying there is doesn't really tell me much.

C18 even fired a Ki blast at them while they were still in their base forms. She was hardly holding back.

C18 herself makes the conscious decision to dodge the suppressed Ki blast they fired. She even had an 'oh shit' (see Cell vs Final flash) face when it was coming at here implying she knew just how much force was behind it.
Anyway who says you need to be able to sense Ki to tell just how formidable an opponent someone is? They can judge someone's strength via their movements as stated/implied many times in the manga.

But yeah, the burden of proof is on you really. C18 notes the mighty masks' strength and notes he wasn't anyone ordinary. There was no reason for her to hold back and as shown in the fight itself (flying, firing Ki blasts etc) she wasn't.
Base kids ~ C18 is pretty clearly shown in the manga.


@dbgtFO

That still doesn't explain Nappa actually being able to match Goku in all aspects inc power(as shown by the unamplified 'BLAARRRGH' near cancelling out the KHH) and movement(clearly able to make Goku put effort in to dodging his attacks and being able to dodge Goku's attacks). These are both power orientated.

Also the way Vegeta describes himself being focused only on power suggests he was focused only on power until he learned how to sense Ki/realized that he should learn how to sense Ki and he doesn't imply during the fight at all if I remember correctly. IMO it took Goku to beat him into submission before he realized this.

@Fox666

Well that's the Android arc. I am taking about the Boo arc specifically where it is suggested that c18 learned how to sense Ki.

@Super_Vegetto

Manga>>>Guidebooks>'Fan words'.

@Kaboom's Android match up

Well the power chain set in movie 7 is;

Piccolo>>c13~SSjin Goku etc etc

...while the main story power chain is;

Piccolo~/>c17>>SSjin Goku etc etc

...so imo c17 could probably beat all 3 of them through a tough fight but with c18's help it would be too easy.

Also I think c17 and c18 could probably take Super 13 via teamwork pretty easily.

[Rocketman]

"Isn't ordinary" doesn't mean "I can use my full Super Saiyan arm-breaking power". Master Roshi "isn't ordinary" either.

[Saiga]

"Isn't ordinary" doesn't mean "I can use my full Super Saiyan arm-breaking power". Master Roshi "isn't ordinary" either.

"He has a long torso yet short legs and arms... BETTER USE PLANET BUSTING FORCE!" - #18.

[Son_Gohan]

C18 even fired a Ki blast at them while they were still in their base forms. She was hardly holding back.

C18 herself makes the conscious decision to dodge the suppressed Ki blast they fired. She even had an 'oh shit' (see Cell vs Final flash) face when it was coming at here implying she knew just how much force was behind it.
Anyway who says you need to be able to sense Ki to tell just how formidable an opponent someone is? They can judge someone's strength via their movements as stated/implied many times in the manga.

But yeah, the burden of proof is on you really. C18 notes the mighty masks' strength and notes he wasn't anyone ordinary. There was no reason for her to hold back and as shown in the fight itself (flying, firing Ki blasts etc) she wasn't.
Base kids ~ C18 is pretty clearly shown in the manga.

Unless you're arguing that the blast she used to make a small dent to the tournament ring was her full power, you've already conceded she's holding back.

You really see her dodging as some well-thought-out decision and not just a knee-jerk reaction? She couldn't have had the time to think. Trunks' attack was coming far too fast for #18 to determine in her head how strong it was, hence her surprise. She notes it's power based on the destructive force it caused to the area. If that's really all the evidence you had for her being able to sense Ki, then it was right for me to infer that she couldn't.

You've pretty much accomplished that well enough on your own. I think we can both agree that #18's full power being capable of destroying the entire ring is a gross understatement (which her attack didn't manage to even do). And if you still think she was using her full power the entire time, I don't know what else to say other than you don't appear to be demonstrating an outlook that is receptive to anything other than the beliefs that you favor. Asserting that "Base kids ~ C18 is pretty clearly shown in the manga", invalidly claims something as common knowledge when I personally didn't interpret it that way, and surely I'm not the only one. #18 recognizing Mighty Mask as no ordinary human doesn't necessarily mean she views him as a threat to her own power and would need to exert full effort. Evidently he wasn't able to land anything on her, and it's only after transforming and seeing through the disguise did she exhibit concern to end the match. Their capabilities before then weren't shown to be an issue to her. So there are unmistakably other ways of looking at, I think you've only falsely convinced yourself of there being just a single viewpoint.

[FNF]

Saying c18 was holding back against Trunks is no better than saying Pure Boo was holding back unspoken of power against Goku. Nuff' said.
If characters are holding back endless amounts of power they are stated to be doing so.

The message is clear that c18~base Kids.

[Piccolo Daimao]

The Series Androids versus the Movie Androids.

17 and 18 find themselves in a 2-vs-3 battle against 13, 14, and 15. If this is too unfair in 17 and 18's favor, then 14 and 15 may be sacrificed so the twins are fighting two-on-one against Super 13 instead. If THAT'S too unfair in Super 13's favor, then 16 may join the fray to help 17 and 18.

#17 and #18 defeated the Super Saiyans, who defeated #14 and #15, not to mention that they have infinite energy (I don't think it was ever stated that #13, #14 and #15 do, and I think they might be purely mechanical like #16 and #19). Before merging, #13 is, at most, equal with Super Saiyan Gokuu.

But after merging, Super #13 would utterly thrash #17 and #18. So if #16 jumped in, then it would be a one-on-one fight between Super #13 and #16, whom #17 and #18 (if they weren't destroyed beforehand) wouldn't be able to keep up with. I don't know which one's stronger than the other, since I believe they're both around the same level, so it could go either way.

[dbgtFO]

It wouldn't be to show that she would get tired, but that she was actually exerting effort to the degree that Mighty Mask was shown, since he is the only one that's drawn with it there. #18 only begins to sweat after Trunks fires his Ki attack and is shown to take it more seriously.

Refer to #17's fight with Piccolo, where he didn't sweat at any point, even though he was giving it his all. Also look at #18's fight with Vegeta, where no android sweat was present either.

@dbgtFO

That still doesn't explain Nappa actually being able to match Goku in all aspects inc power(as shown by the unamplified 'BLAARRRGH' near cancelling out the KHH) and movement(clearly able to make Goku put effort in to dodging his attacks and being able to dodge Goku's attacks). These are both power orientated.

Sure, but neither of that was a part of my argument.

Also the way Vegeta describes himself being focused only on power suggests he was focused only on power until he learned how to sense Ki/realized that he should learn how to sense Ki and he doesn't imply during the fight at all if I remember correctly. IMO it took Goku to beat him into submission before he realized this.

Maybe/maybe not.
The way I figure, 'Vegeta destroying his own scouter' is a pretty powerful message to send the reader, making it possible this was the point, Vegeta stopped being "focused just on power" and perhaps started to try and see things from his opponents' perspective.
All we can really go by is opinions, as there's nothing definitive stated about this issue AFAIK.

[Mystic Gohan]

Mystic gohan vs buff buu. Personally, i got mystic gohan winning this easily.

[Fox666]

Considering Trunks said Gohan was only "a little" stronger than Gotenks, I think South Kaioshin-absorbed Boo would win.

[Mystic Gohan]

That is coming from the guy who thought they could beat fat buu in base before going into the rosat and they got pounded. Thought they could beat super buu in base and ssj got pounded.

[Kaboom]

Mystic gohan vs buff buu. Personally, i got mystic gohan winning this easily.

I think it'd be either dead-even, or just slightly in Boo's favor.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Mystic gohan vs buff buu.

I think Boo would be able to hold his own, but Gohan's slightly stronger and, unlike SS3 Gokuu (who I believe was slightly stronger than Pure Boo) would be able to push him back and/or charge up enough ki to finish him off in one final attack. Perhaps it would turn out like SS3 Gotenks vs. Super Boo if Gotenks hadn't ran out of time (he was about to kill him before he defused), without the childish showboating.