The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[TheUltimateNinja]

17, 18 and Piccolo are the only real players here, the SSJs are totally irrelevant. And Cell has shown he can very easily defeat Piccolo & 17, and by extension 18 who is weaker than either of them.

He defeated #17 and an exhausted Piccolo who weren't even working together. And while the Super Saiyans might not be strong enough to fight Cell outright, they certainly can provide distractions and block attacks.

Even if they were to work together, they still wouldn't be able to do too much, Cell easily tanked Piccolo's Light Grenade without even budging and that's the strongest attack they have. And the Saiyans can't block any hits from Cell, the power gap is too big, even a glancing blow from him would be a knock out, even 17 and 18 could easily demolish the SSJs in a few blows, let alone Cell who is much stronger.

[DanielSSJ]

Even if they were to work together, they still wouldn't be able to do too much, Cell easily tanked Piccolo's Light Grenade without even budging and that's the strongest attack they have. And the Saiyans can't block any hits from Cell, the power gap is too big, even a glancing blow from him would be a knock out, even 17 and 18 could easily demolish the SSJs in a few blows, let alone Cell who is much stronger.

Cell tanked an attack from an exhausted Piccolo. Considering that this Piccolo is at full strength and has the cooperation of both Android No. 17 and Android No. 18, it might be a different story altogether.
And when I said that the Super Saiyans could block attacks, I meant that they could deflect Ki attacks from afar, like how Piccolo knocked away the blast that 3rd form Freeza deflected back at Gohan, or how Tenshinhan blasted away a Ki blast from Gotenks-Boo, or how Vegeta deflected a planet-destroying Ki attack from Pure Boo.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Even if they were to work together, they still wouldn't be able to do too much, Cell easily tanked Piccolo's Light Grenade without even budging and that's the strongest attack they have. And the Saiyans can't block any hits from Cell, the power gap is too big, even a glancing blow from him would be a knock out, even 17 and 18 could easily demolish the SSJs in a few blows, let alone Cell who is much stronger.

Cell tanked an attack from an exhausted Piccolo. Considering that this Piccolo is at full strength and has the cooperation of both Android No. 17 and Android No. 18, it might be a different story altogether.
And when I said that the Super Saiyans could block attacks, I meant that they could deflect Ki attacks from afar, like how Piccolo knocked away the blast that 3rd form Freeza deflected back at Gohan, or how Tenshinhan blasted away a Ki blast from Gotenks-Boo, or how Vegeta deflected a planet-destroying Ki attack from Pure Boo.

17 fled immediately once he saw Piccolo charging up his Light Grenade that wasn't even aimed at him, so it's likely Piccolo has the highest attack potency of them all. This means he's the only one capable of actually dealing damage to Cell, so if Cell just takes him down the rest are completely screwed. And Cell is much faster than the SSJs so he could speedblitz and instantly kill them before they have the chance to do anything.

[Ki Breaker]

I got some

• Jaco vs Roshi
• Buu vs rof gohan
• teen gohan vs rof gohan

[TheUltimateNinja]

I got some

• Jaco vs Roshi
• Buu vs rof gohan
• teen gohan vs rof gohan

- Probably Roshi, Jaco said he'd lose to any adult Saiyan.

- RoF Gohan wins, unless you mean Ultimate Gohan in which case F Gohan loses.

- RoF Gohan wins.

[Doctor.]

Kuririn (versus Freeza) vs The Ginyu Force

[dragonball0900]

Frieza was taking much more brutal hits from an angry healthy ssj Goku after tanking a spirit bomb.

Yeah, but SSJ Sick Goku should be much stronger than the spirit bomb with the reasons I said earlier.

Show me where Piccolo was confident he could beat the androids.
And Krillin just said Piccolo was extremely strong for not being a ssj, which is true. He wasn't ssj level yet but he was close, just like Frieza 50%.
Also the Daizenshuu confirms after the Frieza saga they stoped getting big gains like and zenkais and focused more on transformations.
And what are you talking about Roshi? He didn't get much stronger. Even 21st Budokai Roshi was stronger than Yamcha and Krillin.

Piccolo outright said in the manga, when he flying with Goku and Gohan to the city, that he was confident on beating them but he just have a slightly bad feeling.

SSJ level is not close to 50%. Krillin never sensed Goku from Namek, but he did sense Trunks and Goku's SSJ ki before the 3 year gap, and for him to think Piccolo was near the SSJ level it can't be anywhere close to 50% Frieza since that's a very weak level. Even 100% Frieza couldn't reach the SSJ level that Trunks and Goku had, much less Vegeta and Goku during the Android Arc.

Maybe they focused more on transformations, but that doesn't mean they can't get much stronger. Through the series they did became stronger during periods of time, the 7 year gap for instance when Gohan became weaker, but Goku and Vegeta trained and became stronger than him, obviously with a smaller boost. The 3 year gap for the Androids arc was a period of intensive training, how can they not get high boosts at that moment? There's also the ROSAT, when they became stronger and stronger too. Just because they focus more on transformations, it doesn't mean that they have to stay at the same power and getting small boosts.

As for Roshi, he did get much stronger in the 22nd Budokai, he was fighting nearly on par with Tien! Tien at the same time is much stronger than Goku post Korin, who is much stronger than 21st Roshi. Yamcha also managed to make a good fight with Tien, indicating that the larger gap that Yamcha and Roshi had in the 21st Budokai had shortened in the 22nd thanks to the training Roshi give to him. Roshi would be like Goku, while Krillin/Yamcha would be like Piccolo. Goku was always stronger than Piccolo, while at the same time Roshi was always stronger than Krillin/Yamcha in that part of the Dragon Ball series.

Manga Imperfect Cell (Post-humans absorption) VS #17, #18, Kamiccolo (no weighted clothing on), SSJ Vegeta, healthy SSJ Goku, SSJ Future Trunks (All SSJ's are pre-ROSAT)

Initial Android 20 VS Manga Androids Saga; pre-ROSAT Base Gohan (additively and permanently given the full power levels of Androids Saga Krillin, Tien, Yamcha, and Chiaotzu)-- No Ki Attacks or absorbing allowed

SSJ Goku (Yardrat) VS Initial Android 19-- No absorbing allowed

Future #17 and #18 VS Android #13, #14, #15

1st Round. Imperfect Cell wins, there was large gap between him and Piccolo/Android 17.

2nd Round. Android 20 wins in strenght. With attacks like Tri Beam, Kienzan, or Gohan's rage, they might have a chance.

3rd Round. Android 19 wins in strenght, but with Goku's smart fighting, he may have a chance to win.

4th Round. Difficult, but I have 17 and 18 maybe winning this.

Kuririn (versus Freeza) vs The Ginyu Force

At the end of the Frieza fight, I have Krillin winning everyone except for Captain Ginyu, since it was stated that he had 75K. In the beggining of the Frieza battle, however, I have him at 42K since I don't think his potential was total unlocked at the moment.

[Doctor.]

Hit gets his power scaled back to SP Cell's level and gets hired to kill him. How does the fight go?

[dragon boss z]

Cell gets gang banged.

How? Cell is too strong for them to do shit to him.

While Cell is being detracted by Piccolo, 17, and 18 Goku or Vegeta could charge up a really large attack. Piccolo could also try a special beam canon. There are just so many of them that Cell would most likely get overwhelmed. 17 admitted if Trunks, Krillin, Tien, and Piccolo helped Vegeta, 18 would probably lose, and a lot of them are normally one shot material for her.

[dragon boss z]

Hit gets his power scaled back to SP Cell's level and gets hired to kill him. How does the fight go?

Cell probably wins because I don' think destroy his heard would do anything.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Cell gets gang banged.

How? Cell is too strong for them to do shit to him.

While Cell is being detracted by Piccolo, 17, and 18 Goku or Vegeta could charge up a really large attack. Piccolo could also try a special beam canon. There are just so many of them that Cell would most likely get overwhelmed. 17 admitted if Trunks, Krillin, Tien, and Piccolo helped Vegeta, 18 would probably lose, and a lot of them are normally one shot material for her.

Cell is on a completely different level from even the androids. Neither the androids nor the Saiyans can charge up a strong enough attack to damage Cell, Piccolo's Light Grenade has massive power yet Cell completely tanked it. Cell is also incredibly fast, he could instantly oneshot all 3 Saiyans before they even realize what's happening.

[dragon boss z]

Yeah, but SSJ Sick Goku should be much stronger than the spirit bomb with the reasons I said earlier.

Ya but the spirit bomb damaged Frieza and Goku still couldn't finish off 50% Frieza without a kamehameha (that's the move he was preparing to kill Frieza with before Frieza attacked the planet). Sick ssj Goku was dominating 19 just like he dominated 50% Frieza. It is likely sick ssj Goku was twice as strong as 19 before his energy started dropping fast and before he gave 19 energy.

Piccolo outright said in the manga, when he flying with Goku and Gohan to the city, that he was confident on beating them but he just have a slightly bad feeling.

Did he say he was confident in winning in a 1v1? He could of mean as a team he was confident in beating them. It was like 7v2.

SSJ level is not close to 50%. Krillin never sensed Goku from Namek, but he did sense Trunks and Goku's SSJ ki before the 3 year gap, and for him to think Piccolo was near the SSJ level it can't be anywhere close to 50% Frieza since that's a very weak level. Even 100% Frieza couldn't reach the SSJ level that Trunks and Goku had, much less Vegeta and Goku during the Android Arc.

Krillin didn't say Piccolo was ssj level, he said he was strong for not being a ssj. 50% Frieza is also strong for not being a ssj. But I think Piccolo was more like 70% Frieza. 100% Frieza is actually ssj tier.

here are my estimates
sick base Goku: 3 mil (full power: 4 mil)
19: 30 mil (post absorption: 50 mil)
20: 40 mil (post absorption: 60 mil)
Piccolo: 80 mil
sick ssj Goku: 150 mil and dropping (full power: 200 mil)

Maybe they focused more on transformations, but that doesn't mean they can't get much stronger. Through the series they did became stronger during periods of time, the 7 year gap for instance when Gohan became weaker, but Goku and Vegeta trained and became stronger than him, obviously with a smaller boost. The 3 year gap for the Androids arc was a period of intensive training, how can they not get high boosts at that moment? There's also the ROSAT, when they became stronger and stronger too. Just because they focus more on transformations, it doesn't mean that they have to stay at the same power and getting small boosts.

You are focusing too much on multiplying their power. They aren't just multiplying their power when they are train, they most likely are adding on to it. So the higher their power level gets, the less it actually adds up. For example When their power levels were in the thousands, adding thousands to their power level was making them much stronger, but now that they are in the millions, adding thousands on to their power level doesn't make as much of a difference.

As for Roshi, he did get much stronger in the 22nd Budokai, he was fighting nearly on par with Tien! Tien at the same time is much stronger than Goku post Korin, who is much stronger than 21st Roshi. Yamcha also managed to make a good fight with Tien, indicating that the larger gap that Yamcha and Roshi had in the 21st Budokai had shortened in the 22nd thanks to the training Roshi give to him. Roshi would be like Goku, while Krillin/Yamcha would be like Piccolo. Goku was always stronger than Piccolo, while at the same time Roshi was always stronger than Krillin/Yamcha in that part of the Dragon Ball series.

Roshi was going easy on Goku in the 21st Budokai. Though after busting the moon he lost almost all of his power and actually had to try. Post Korin Goku also had trouble with grandpa Gohan who was confirmed weaker than 21st Roshi. Roshi is like Beerus. You thought Beerus was trying against SSG Goku, but he was really hiding his power.

here are my levels
Goku (21st): 100
Roshi (21st): 130 (but holding back)
Roshi max power: 200, with kamehameha: 400+
Tao: 110
Crane: 120
grandpa Gohan: 125
Roshi (22nd): 139
Roshi getting serious against Tien: 180
Tien: 180
Goku (22nd): 180

[DanielSSJ]

Kuririn (versus Freeza) vs The Ginyu Force

Kuririn was supposed to be around 75K when the battle with Freeza started, more than enough to thoroughly spank Ginyu Force except for the Captain himself. Even if Kuririn's Ki continued to rise, he'd probably max out at around a 100K and would, at best, stalemate Captain Ginyu.

[RedShift]

Makyouka Form Demigra vs Omega Shenron?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Kuririn (versus Freeza) vs The Ginyu Force

Kuririn was supposed to be around 75K when the battle with Freeza started, more than enough to thoroughly spank Ginyu Force except for the Captain himself. Even if Kuririn's Ki continued to rise, he'd probably max out at around a 100K and would, at best, stalemate Captain Ginyu.

Taiyoken + Kienzan combo should allow him to beat Ginyu despite being weaker, though unfortunately he isn't smart enough to utilize such a strategy.

[dragonball0900]

Ya but the spirit bomb damaged Frieza and Goku still couldn't finish off 50% Frieza without a kamehameha (that's the move he was preparing to kill Frieza with before Frieza attacked the planet). Sick ssj Goku was dominating 19 just like he dominated 50% Frieza. It is likely sick ssj Goku was twice as strong as 19 before his energy started dropping fast and before he gave 19 energy.

But who's to say that Sick Goku is not much stronger than the Spirit Bomb? Or what's more, the Spirit Bomb can easily be weaker than SSJ Namek Goku or 100% Frieza. There's more proof to say that Sick Goku is much stronger than his Namek saga counterpart.

Did he say he was confident in winning in a 1v1? He could of mean as a team he was confident in beating them. It was like 7v2.

Again, if he sensed Trunks' power as SSJ 3 years earlier, we don't know if he said as a team either, he wouldn't try to come to battle, we know how Piccolo is, he's always there when he knows if he's capable.

Krillin didn't say Piccolo was ssj level, he said he was strong for not being a ssj. 50% Frieza is also strong for not being a ssj. But I think Piccolo was more like 70% Frieza. 100% Frieza is actually ssj tier.

He did say his power was somewhat like a SSJ, he said that in the manga, and 50% Frieza is nowhere close anyone of them.

You are focusing too much on multiplying their power. They aren't just multiplying their power when they are train, they most likely are adding on to it. So the higher their power level gets, the less it actually adds up. For example When their power levels were in the thousands, adding thousands to their power level was making them much stronger, but now that they are in the millions, adding thousands on to their power level doesn't make as much of a difference.

It was never stated that it has to be that way. Look at how well they incremented their powers on the ROSAT training only on 1 year. Vegeta, who trained with much heavier gravity in 3 years, was equal to Goku after the 3 years. If you train hard, you get much stronger, that's how it always is, specially during those 3 years.

Roshi was going easy on Goku in the 21st Budokai. Though after busting the moon he lost almost all of his power and actually had to try. Post Korin Goku also had trouble with grandpa Gohan who was confirmed weaker than 21st Roshi. Roshi is like Beerus. You thought Beerus was trying against SSG Goku, but he was really hiding his power.

Roshi was not going easy with Goku. He was trying to use all the techniques he could, but without using his buff form, which is much stronger than that

Grandpa Gohan is NOT weaker than 21st Roshi. Goku was on par with Roshi (with no buff form), and got defeated easily by Tao Pai Pai, then Goku got much stronger than Tao Pai Pai after Korin's training, but was equal with Grandpa Gohan.

Let's not include Buff Roshi on this right? We're talking about normal Roshi. It was never stated that in the 22nd Budokai Roshi was buff against Tien, he was just serious.
Also, Crane Hermit should be stronger than Roshi without being serious, serious Roshi is stronger, judging by Tien's comments. There's also Chiaotzu, Yamcha and Krillin (the later 2 who manage to fight well against Tien and Goku, but ended up losing obviously).

21st Yamcha << 21st Krillin << 21st Goku = 21st Roshi <<< Tao Pai Pai << Post Korin Goku = Grandpa Gohan < 22nd Chiaotzu <= 22nd Yamcha <= 22nd Krillin < 22nd Roshi < Crane Hermit < 22nd Serious Roshi < 22nd Goku = 22nd Tien

You can easily see how much big of a gap was between Yamcha and Roshi in the 21st, and in the 22nd it got much shorter.

[Sailor Haumea]

Zen-Oh (full power) vs. Toribot (full power)

Who wins?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Zen-Oh (full power) vs. Toribot (full power)

Who wins?

Zeno > Beerus > Arale > Toribot

By powerscaling Zeno takes this.

[Sailor Haumea]

Zen-Oh (full power) vs. Toribot (full power)

Who wins?

Zeno > Beerus > Arale > Toribot

By powerscaling Zeno takes this.

>Zeno

WEEEEABOOOOO

[Pantalones]

Could the fighters overcome the power differences in one-on-one fights?

- Hit vs. Saibamen (90% stronger than his opponent)
- Perfect Cell vs. Final Form Freeza (55% stronger)
- Piccolo vs. Kid SSJ2 Gohan (30% stronger)
- SSJ Future Trunks vs. Nappa (15% stronger)
- Super Boo-han vs. Krillin (60% stronger)
- Tenshinhan (25% stronger) vs. Beerus
- Yamcha (10% stronger) vs. LSSJ Broly

This is a pretty interesting idea.

I think Hit should be able to pull off a win against an opponent as mindless as a Saibaiman, even with such a big gap in power. He was able to hold up pretty well against Goku even with Kaio-ken x10 on top of SSj Blue, after all -- fighting surprisingly evenly despite a gap in power is something Hit's been known to do. Even if the Saibaiman would be strong enough to muscle through Hit's time-skip it wouldn't be smart enough to figure it out, so it'd be helpless against the time-skip and would probably get caught off guard and killed by his assassination techniques eventually. The only danger is catching Hit in a self-destruct, but with the time-skip he should be able to avoid any attempts at that, and being an assassin he probably expects suicidal last-ditch attempts from cornered opponents and could see it coming rather than lowering his guard the moment the Saibaiman stops moving.

Cell is more skilled and has regeneration on his side, but I don't think he's quite skilled enough to overcome that kind of a power gap without A LOT of luck (and Freeza's not exactly unskilled himself, and with a 55% power advantage I'm sure one of his bigger blasts would have enough "oomph" to finish off Cell despite regeneration.) He wasn't able to pull it off against SSj2 Gohan, after all. Alternatively, Freeza tries to finish off Cell with a big blast but doesn't quite manage it and he comes back "Super Perfect" and effortlessly destroys Freeza.

Hmm... Piccolo would need to take advantage of the fact that Gohan wouldn't want to hurt Mr. Piccolo if he wants to win this one. Piccolo is more skilled for sure, so he might be able to pull it off, but a 30% gap and Gohan probably being in rage-monster mode are pretty significant factors.

Trunks vs. stronger-than-Trunks Nappa... huh, that's a tricky one. If it's the current Trunks in Super, who seems to have become much more skilled than the version we saw in the Android Saga, I'd say he'd be able to pull it off for sure. Android Saga Trunks would have a harder time but if he can get Nappa to lose focus the way he did when he was fighting Goku at first he could still have a chance of winning. Alternatively, if Nappa loses an arm he's screwed regardless of which Trunks he's fighting.

Krillin probably can't overwhelm Buu's regeneration without putting all his strength into a massive Kamehameha, but Buu likely can't win against someone that much stronger unless he falls back on absorption. If Krillin figures out that he needs a huge blast to overwhelm Buu's regeneration, he definitely wins -- with that kind of power advantage Buu won't be able to stop him, and he doesn't have to fight against SSj3 energy drain unlike Goku so building up all his strength for a major blast should be no problem. If not, he's probably getting absorbed.

With a power advantage like that Tenshinhan gives Beerus a great fight, one that convinces him to definitely not destroy Earth, but due to the strength-draining nature of his fighting style (and Beerus' superior skill) he runs out of steam before Beerus does. Basically, we'd have something like SSj God Goku vs. Beerus all over again. Alternatively, if Beerus gets nailed by a Shin Kikoho barrage like what Cell got and doesn't manage to dodge or nullify it in time, Tenshinhan would definitely win. Either way, Earth is saved and Tenshinhan's getting trained by Whis afterward.

Broly can't win against any serious fighter without superior strength on his side -- he's the polar opposite of the "very skilled, but kinda weak" human fighters. If they're fighting up close they'll be mostly even at first, but eventually Yamcha puts some distance between them, ping-pongs him through a few mountains with a giant Sokidan for a while, and then finishes him off with a Wolf Fang Fist and Kamehameha combo while he's still dazed. Broly's only chance is if he gets really lucky with a big blast or something and injures Yamcha early on.