Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

We know exactly why he didn't use Kaioken against Black. The Ki disorder thing was only a few days before the FT arc and Kaiosama warned him not to do it. Even a preview described him using Kaioken as a life risking attack against Merged Zamasu.

Why he didn't use a higher form against Monaka is explained in E109 actually. When he wants to test his opponents he never uses his full power.

His fight with Beerus was a death match, it makes no sense for him to not use a higher form.

[PFM18]

We know exactly why he didn't use Kaioken against Black. The Ki disorder thing was only a few days before the FT arc and Kaiosama warned him not to do it. Even a preview described him using Kaioken as a life risking attack against Merged Zamasu.

Why he didn't use a higher form against Monaka is explained in E109 actually. When he wants to test his opponents he never uses his full power.

His fight with Beerus was a death match, it makes no sense for him to not use a higher form.

Yeah that's fair. He really shouldn't have used Kaioken against Black. He only used it as a last resort against MZ.

We are left to kind of head canon a possible reason I guess. Maybe after the absorption he wasn't able to use the higher forms? Maybe he figured the higher forms had too much strain? I know when the movie was made AT said he wanted to phase out the higher forms.

[ssj3kakarot]

Who here believes anime Gokus SSJ = SSG?

I know that in BoG that’s literally what happens.

But is that specifically said in the anime? Clearly people assume that’s the case because scenes like Ssj3 Gotenks vs base sayians and some other instances.

My questions stems from the ToP scene where Goku turns SSG against Dyspo. Why use the form if you have the power in super Saiyan?

[PFM18]

Who here believes anime Gokus SSJ = SSG?

I know that in BoG that’s literally what happens.

But is that specifically said in the anime? Clearly people assume that’s the case because scenes like Ssj3 Gotenks vs base sayians and some other instances.

My questions stems from the ToP scene where Goku turns SSG against Dyspo. Why use the form if you have the power in super Saiyan?

As someone showed in a screenshot, Goku explicitly says he hasn't lost any power. Beerus confirms this to be the case and then the narrator and episode title say that he had surpassed Super Saiyan God.

It doesn't really work like that. Goku became as strong as SSG was at that particular point in time, it doesn't mean that for the rest of the entire series SSJ and SSG are exactly the same in power. That doesn't make any sense.

[ssj3kakarot]

Who here believes anime Gokus SSJ = SSG?

I know that in BoG that’s literally what happens.

But is that specifically said in the anime? Clearly people assume that’s the case because scenes like Ssj3 Gotenks vs base sayians and some other instances.

My questions stems from the ToP scene where Goku turns SSG against Dyspo. Why use the form if you have the power in super Saiyan?

As someone showed in a screenshot, Goku explicitly says he hasn't lost any power. Beerus confirms this to be the case and then the narrator and episode title say that he had surpassed Super Saiyan God.

It doesn't really work like that. Goku became as strong as SSG was at that particular point in time, it doesn't mean that for the rest of the entire series SSJ and SSG are exactly the same in power. That doesn't make any sense.

So if it was explicitly stated that Goku didn’t lose any power, why can’t it always work like that? I don’t believe it does, but we have an explicit statement for him retaining the power, then are we to assume he loses it, somewhere, off screen? I like the SSG transformation, but I wish they wouldn’t have used it outside the ritual.

[PFM18]

So if it was explicitly stated that Goku didn’t lose any power, why can’t it always work like that? I don’t believe it does, but we have an explicit statement for him retaining the power, then are we to assume he loses it, somewhere, off screen? I like the SSG transformation, but I wish they wouldn’t have used it outside the ritual.

I just don't think the "SSG power" is a moving target, Goku just retained the power that he had at that particular time. And SSG is still distinguishable from the normal SSJ because it has God Ki and the normal SSJ does, so the accompanied boost could be a result of that. Also, the description of SSB kind of implies SSB to be a prerequisite because:

SSG= God Ki
SSB= God Ki+SSJ

[Marlowe89]

That many characters and that many writers they probably didn't even try to make them scale.

That's possible, but the downside is that it means the writers are only guessing how strong the characters are supposed to be just based on the vague information Toriyama provides them. Toshio once provided two contradictory rankings on his Twitter account and then said it was just his personal opinion, which is a major red flag if you ask me.

If we're being more optimistic, it could mean that they were trying to adopt a similar scale to the manga for the sake of franchise consistency. It's reiterated multiple times that Goku reached the level of the gods during the BoG arc, then during the exhibition match, they say the same thing after Goku transforms into Super Saiyan Blue. That lines up pretty well with what we were shown during the Tournament of Power.

[Bullza]

As I said recently, in the Battle of Gods movie, Goku started with Super Saiyan God, he reverted to Super Saiyan and was said to be no weaker because he'd absorbed that power, then he struggles to stop Beerus' attack until he comes back out with Super Saiyan God and destroys it immediately.

In the anime, he started with Super Saiyan God but it was nerfed to the point he couldn't even see Beerus' punches at first. He then powers up/reaches new heights about four of five times and then reverts to his Super Saiyan which would be as strong as Super Saiyan God at the time of reverting. Then he powers up a couple more times after that.

But there was nothing to say he couldn't still turn into a Super Saiyan God or that wouldn't be even more powerful still next time because he didn't necessarily max out before, he just ran out of time.

[RecolorSaiyan]

[Miracles]

Who here believes anime Gokus SSJ = SSG?

I know that in BoG that’s literally what happens.

But is that specifically said in the anime? Clearly people assume that’s the case because scenes like Ssj3 Gotenks vs base sayians and some other instances.

My questions stems from the ToP scene where Goku turns SSG against Dyspo. Why use the form if you have the power in super Saiyan?

This is what was stated in Battle of Gods movie...





Super Saiyan with god powers is a weaker version than red...

Here's what TV Dragonball Super states...





Beerus was asking Goku where is the power of god and then Goku shows the power of SSG. However, it didn't say he was equal with SSJG...





So, how could SSJ surpass god yet be weaker than it later in the TOP?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I always assumed Super Saiyan surpassing Super Saiyan God was just a one time thing. Goku absorbed the power and eventually went beyond that level. It's a special case. Once Super Saiyan God became a form he could transform into, it'd obviously be superior to Super Saiyan.

[Bullza]

So, how could SSJ surpass god yet be weaker than it later in the TOP?

Super Saiyan was as strong as Super Saiyan God at the time that Goku reverted from one form to the other. By the end of the fight and because Goku powered up more, Super Saiyan surpassed Super Saiyan God. That was said by Vegeta and Narrator.

By the time of the Tournament of Power, Super Saiyan God was now stronger than his Super Saiyan 3.

So perhaps once Goku had done the training and learned to become Super Saiyan God on his own and got control of the form then it was stronger at that point. Essentially you had Goku who became a Super Saiyan God, adapted to its strength and became as strong and then brought it out again on top of that later on.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Would the Super Saiyan Goku that tore into Frost be at the level he was when he fought Beerus, at the very least?

I'm really trying to figure out how strong Super Saiyan Goku was in Champa's tournament.

[Bullza]

Would the Super Saiyan Goku that tore into Frost be at the level he was when he fought Beerus, at the very least?

I'm really trying to figure out how strong Super Saiyan Goku was in Champa's tournament.

At the very least yeah because after that he trained with Whis for four months at which point Beerus said they'd got a lot stronger which is why he was about ready to fight them again.

Then he trained with Vegeta for another three years after that in the Rosat and got an unknown amount stronger still.

[Bullza]

In today's Super Dragon Ball Heroes, Super Saiyan 4 Vegito overpowers Super Saiyan Kanba despite Base Kanba overpowering Super Saiyan Blue Kanba while he was using Kaio-ken and Super Saiyan 4 Goku being the same in strength as Super Saiyan Blue Goku...



Oh and it looks like Goku is gonna bust out Ultra Instinct in the next episode where he'll probably be a match for the more powerful Super Fu.

[PFM18]

Beerus was asking Goku where is the power of god and then Goku shows the power of SSG. However, it didn't say he was equal with SSJG...

Goku said he didn't feel any weaker and Beerus agreed with him. Even in the screenshot he commented "this is the power of Super Saiyan God" as he is in his normal SSJ form. Additionally, the narrator stated that his SSJ had surpassed SSG and the episode where he fights as SSJ mentions that he surpassed SSG.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Cumber was a Super Saiyan 3 in todays DB Heroes episode. In terms of a power level list, the SSJ4s can be slightly weaker than the Blues but way more powerful in their fusion when their powers are multiplied.

Goku Xeno and Vegeta Xeno could have a way stronger base form than DBS Goku and DBS Vegeta.

Just some of my own numbers here:

Spoiler:

Super Saiyan 4 multiplier: 500,000x Base
Super Saiyan Blue multiplier: 7,500,000,000(7.5 Billion)xBase

Base Goku Xeno: 17,000,000,000,000,000(17 Quadrillion)
Base Vegeta Xeno: 17,000,000,000,000,000(17 Quadrillion)

Super Saiyan 4 Goku Xeno: 8,500,000,000,000,000,000,000(8.5 Sextillion)
Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta Xeno: 8,500,000,000,000,000,000,000(8.5 Sextillion)

Base Goku(DB Super): 1,170,000,000,000(1.17 Trillion)
Base Vegeta(DB Super): 1,170,000,000,000(1.17 Trillion)

Super Saiyan Blue Goku: 8,775,000,000,000,000,000,000(8.775 Sextillion)
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta: 8,775,000,000,000,000,000,000(8.775 Sextillion)

And for the fusions:

Spoiler:

Super Saiyan 4 Vegito Xeno= 17,000,000,000,000(17 Quadrillion) x17,000,000,000,000,000(17 Quadrillion)x500,000

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito=1,170,000,000,000(1.17 Trillion)x1,170,000,000,000(1.17 Trillion)x7,500,000,000(7.5 Billion)

Super Saiyan 4 Vegito Xeno: 144,500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000(144.5 Undecillion)

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito: 10,266,750,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000(10.26675 Decillion)
Super Saiyan Blue Kaiokenx20 Vegito: 205,335,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000(205.335 Decillion)

And Base->SSJ3 Cumber can easily fit within that gap between Super Saiyan 4 Vegito Xeno and Super Saiyan Blue Kaiokenx20 Vegito.

Super Saiyan 4 Vegito Xeno ends up a lot stronger simply due to the raw multiplication of their powers despite the Xeno SSJ4s being =< SSBs in strength. Not saying that the powers in fusions are multiplied in that specific way but there are scenarios where the Xeno fusion can be superior.

[ankokudaishogun]

Remember: the Heroes anime is NOT canon to DB Heroes.
You can as well use the opening movies of the many games for strength comparison if you use the Heroes anime

[CTAkuma]

Speaking multipliers Golden Oozaru Kanba who was fighting Vegito SSBKK would be 500x base(Oozaru 10x, Super Saiyan 50x ontop) and the Kanba fighting Vegito SS4 would be 400x base through using SS3.

[Bullza]

Yeah it actually was Super Saiyan 3 Kanba.

So you have Super Saiyan 4 Vegito > Super Saiyan 3 Kanba >>> Kanba > Super Saiyan Blue Vegito Kaio-ken. Wouldn't that make Super Saiyan 4 Vegito roughly 800 times as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Vegito?

Same with Super Fu and maybe Ultra Instinct Goku.