Is it a rip off if Toriyama created both? Also, why is that neccessarily a bad thing?RandomGuy96 wrote:1. He's just more fun to watchABED wrote:How do you figure?RandomGuy96 wrote:Babidi is a better villain than Perfect Cell.
2. He's actually original, while Cell is a blatant Freeza rip-off
3. His idiocy is played for laughs.
4. Gorier death
Yes, it can still be a rip-off, as it comes off as cheap and repetitive to have the same character twice. Also, Freeza wasn't exactly the best villain to begin with, so repeating certain things about him for Cell (such as the absurd amount of "I'm not really left-handed" moments) isn't good for the story.Is it a rip off if Toriyama created both? Also, why is that neccessarily a bad thing?
Why is being played for laughs automatically better? Cell is the main threat, playing him for laughs isn't a good idea, it undercuts the tension.
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Cipher wrote:Also, you can seriously like whatever and still get laid. That's a revelation that'll hit you at some point.
Khalid Shahin wrote:Yeah, pretty much sums the show up right there.Dragon Soul Funimation Lyrics wrote:Nothing ever dies; we will rise again!
Bite your tongue, heathen!Also, Freeza wasn't exactly the best villain to begin with, so repeating certain things about him for Cell (such as the absurd amount of "I'm not really left-handed" moments) isn't good for the story.
No, Gohan got both a transformation and a rage boost.ABED wrote:The boost IS the transformation. It's not just his hair and eye color, it boosts his power.
Less soft, more merciless, vengeful, etc, depending on the situation.Define more impure.
It is implied in the manga through the art, and stated in Movie 7. When Goku was creating the Genki Dama to kill Merged #13, he transformed into a Super Saiyan. Kuririn said that Goku shouldn't be able to use the Genki Dama as a Super Saiyan, because of the malicious heart it grants. This resulted in SS Goku absorbing the Genki Dama.WHere did it state that it did this? You inferred what the drawing meant.
Chapter: 497 (DBZ 303), P1.5
Context: as Gohan approaches Boo and co.
Piccolo: “It’s a str-strong ki…! I can’t tell who it is…Is it some new enemy…!?”
Chapter: 497 (DBZ 303), P4.1
Piccolo: “Is-is that Gohan…!? No…Something’s different about him…His features are a little different…And he has a different type of ki than before…His softness has vanished too…That’s why I couldn’t tell it was him…”
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
I feel the same way.goku the krump dancer wrote:I think Cell making the same mistakes Vegeta and Trunks did is supposed to be the irony of the whole situation and I like that. Goku and Cell even teach the exact same lesson at the exact same time.
Cell is a perfect example of "Now What?"... He achieves is life's goal and probably a bit quicker than he expected so now it's like "well where do we go from here? Oh I know I'll see if that computer was all fluff about my power."
That's a movie, not canon.stated in Movie 7.
So anger is impure? It just says Gohan got rid of his softness, that doesn't imply anything malicious.But as for Ultimate Gohan, it is stated in the manga that it makes him more impure.
It is stated in the Boo arc that Gohan got a rage boost against Cell on top of SS2. And I don't understand how it doesn't make sense, in fact, it doesn't make sense for him to not have a rage boost.ABED wrote:No, I have never heard that before and it doesn't make a lick of sense. Gohan's anger unlocks a transformation that gives him more power. That's it.
There is no canon.That's a movie, not canon.
I never said that, it implies that he isn't pure anymore, along with his attitude, and the way his eyes are drawn.So anger is impure? It just says Gohan got rid of his softness, that doesn't imply anything malicious.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Toriyama's story is canon. Even if there is no canon (doesn't make any sense but whatever), the manga is still far more authoritative than the movies.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:It is stated in the Boo arc that Gohan got a rage boost against Cell on top of SS2. And I don't understand how it doesn't make sense, in fact, it doesn't make sense for him to not have a rage boost.ABED wrote:No, I have never heard that before and it doesn't make a lick of sense. Gohan's anger unlocks a transformation that gives him more power. That's it.
There is no canon.That's a movie, not canon.
I never said that, it implies that he isn't pure anymore, along with his attitude, and the way his eyes are drawn.So anger is impure? It just says Gohan got rid of his softness, that doesn't imply anything malicious.
This is pretty much my thoughts on the subject as well.Godo wrote:Wasn't the rage boost simply what made him able to transform in the first place?
If training is required to reach the form, it probably means that a specific ki level is required to be able to transform. Gohan could (at the Cell games) reach this form by getting stronger via his rage boost.
Whether he could access it later, without a rage boost, is another question, though (although I believe that this is the case in the Boo arc as well).
I don't think that his SSJ2 form does include a rage boost on top of it all, since it is, in essence, his rage boost power + his SSJ form (at least this was the case in the Cell Games before the SSJ2 was referenced to be a separate form from SSJ).
I agree, but this is purely our opinion, not a fact. Plus, there is nothing in the manga that contradicts what was said in the movie.ABED wrote:Toriyama's story is canon. Even if there is no canon (doesn't make any sense but whatever), the manga is still far more authoritative than the movies.
So, transforming when showing off his forms makes him more determined after each form?THe eyes? That just means he's determined or angry.
In Boo arc, Goku telling Gohan to get angry so that he can get as strong as he was against Cell (which failed), and Vegeta saying that he is stronger than Gohan as he is now, but there is no telling what will happen if he had gotten angry.SS2 isn't a rage boost, I don't get you're getting at anyways. How do you figure it doesn't make sense for him to not have a rage boost, he was already pissed enough to transform. "rage boost" isn't an official term, and when did it say he got a boost against Cell?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Not an opinion, Toriyama's story IS the story. I don't even know what the hell it would mean for HIS story to not be canon.I agree, but this is purely our opinion, not a fact. Plus, there is nothing in the manga that contradicts what was said in the movie.
That's you inferring again.In Boo arc, Goku telling Gohan to get angry so that he can get as strong as he was against Cell (which failed), and Vegeta saying that he is stronger than Gohan as he is now, but there is no telling what will happen if he had gotten angry.
And no, Goku & Vegeta aren't talking about SS2, because Gohan was shown to easily transform against Kibito, and they sensed his power (Vegeta even said that he was weaker that he was against Cell).
And while "rage boost" isn't an official term, it is an official thing. Every time that Gohan would get angry, he would get stronger than he normally is. Yet against Cell, instead of getting stronger than normally, he just triggers a form that isn't even unique to him?
No, there is the story present in the manga, the story present in the anime, the story present in a video game, etc. There are many alternative takes of the story, Toriyama's story is just the original one. No matter how you slice it, there is no official canon.ABED wrote:Not an opinion, Toriyama's story IS the story. I don't even know what the hell it would mean for HIS story to not be canon.
And I see him getting more & more angry as he transforms. But I'll make a thread to gather all the statements that state or imply any change in the Saiyans heart when they transform, if there are more than the ones I posted.No, his transformations don't make him anything other than more powerful. You are putting the cart before the horse. All I see is a different design, I don't see him as any different personality wise.
What are you talking about?! Goku told Gohan to get angry like he did against Cell. Gohan tries to get angry & stronger, but he fails. And he isn't failing to transform into a SS2, we saw him transforming against Kibito without any issue, and without having to get angry. Vegeta even sees SS2 Gohan's power, says that it was far bigger against Cell and that he is stronger than him now, but there is no telling what would happen if he had gotten angry. Daizenshuu 2 even states directly that SS2 Gohan was weaker both because he didn't train, and because he couldn't get power from his anger. There is no debate, it's been made very clear that Gohan got SS2 + Rage Boost against Cell, and he could only turn into SS2 in Boo arc easily, but couldn't get a rage boost on top of it.That's you inferring again.
It obviously wasn't temporary against Cell, since Gohan had a complete change of personality. It seems that SS2 maintained Gohan's rage boost.Here's the thing about Gohan's rage boosts, they are temporary! They don't last for chapters. They last for a few seconds and then dissipate, SS2 doesn't dissipate.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
You no like SSJ?Kid Buu wrote:I like the Nappa-Recoome rehash, and I don't think the arc jumped the shark here; I think it did when the Genki Dama refused to kill Freeza.
