Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PFM18]

Look at the image I posted on page 1349. Vegeta says he surpassed Super Saiyan God specifically.

They also specifically used the term "level of the gods" there. That's the whole conundrum: BoG indicates post-absorption Super Saiyan Goku = level of the gods, while US explicitly indicates (via the exhibition match) Super Saiyan Goku < level of the gods. Bolstering the latter, there's recent Broly material that specifically confirms Vegeta reached the level of the gods by obtaining Super Saiyan God through Whis's training.

They can't both be correct.

That's why the retcon interpretation remains a valid one that also happens to be supplemented by a lot of things shown in the actual tournament as well as film merchandise.

Still, this idea that SSG=SSJ Goku was at the level of the Gods, and then much further in the story established not to be, is flawed because almost immediately after that episode, Whis clarifies that they are nowhere near the level of the Gods even after Goku got stronger than when he fought Beerus, indicating that they are a tree to the level of the God's castle sitting on a huge plateau above them.(In case, for some reason you seem to think that this dialogue indicates they are on the lower level of the Gods, that doesn't hold up in the slightest because even the tree stump is way lower than the bottom of the castle.) Whis established they weren't' on the level of the Gods even after Goku got stronger than Super Saiyan God, and then 70 episode later they say Goku in SSB is on the level of the Gods. There's no contradiction, and therefore, there's no reason to believe there was a retcon just based on those two pieces of dialogue spaced around 70 episodes apart. The retcon interpretation seemingly is usually just an illegitimate way to manipulate the scaling in the anime to be in line with the manga because they prefer the manga''s scaling.

...But let's not get back into that.

Well they aren't going to be that needlessly specific in the dialogue. We know that it was Super Saiyan that was stronger than Super Saiyan God, he didn't fight using any other form.

The episode that was called "Goku, Surpass Saiyan God" was the one where he turned back into a Super Saiyan.

Beerus said that Goku and Vegeta had become much stronger after they're training. That's why he was prepared to fight them again. This was before they had learned to become Super Saiyan God on their own.

Exactly. Before Goku and Vegeta had any clue how to access God Ki at will, they were deemed by Beerus to be a more entertaining challenge than Goku when he used Super Saiyan God. As was stated earlier, their normal SSJ forms are superior to BoG Super Saiyan God by this point.

[Marlowe89]

But let's not get back into that.

Wait, what?

As I recall, you were the one who said you were done arguing with me about this the last time you replied.

Still, this idea that SSG=SSJ Goku was at the level of the Gods, and then much further in the story established not to be

That's not an "idea", it's exactly what happened. Both Beerus and the narrator outright said that Super Saiyan Goku was at the level of the gods. The exhibition match (and movie material) outright establishes the exact opposite. Whatever Whis said doesn't change the fact that there are two contradictory statements at different points of the series.

In case, for some reason you seem to think that this dialogue indicates they are on the lower level of the Gods, that doesn't hold up in the slightest because even the tree stump is way lower than the bottom of the castle.

The castle (which is shaped like a tree) touches the ground. The tree/stump also touches the ground. Whis said that the castle itself represents the level of the gods, also reiterating that Goku and Vegeta were now strong enough to sense god ki.

His analogy just demonstrates that, despite being at the level of the gods, which is a huge range, they've only barely managed to breach it.

The retcon interpretation seemingly is usually just an illegitimate way to manipulate the scaling in the anime to be in line with the manga because they prefer the manga''s scaling.

My personal speculation that Toei might have intended the anime's scaling to fit more with the manga is completely tangential to the fact that there's a blatant internal conflict regardless.

Let me be honest with you: I don't really care that much about what Toei intends, despite whatever postulation I may put forth. Yoshitaka Toshio can't even keep his own character rankings straight on Twitter, despite being a writer for the show. A lot of the same writers are involved in the Heroes anime right now, and that's a power scaling disaster.

[PFM18]

As I recall, you were the one who said you were done arguing with me about this the last time you replied.

You're right I did. I really should have just ignored your post about it. My bad

[Miracles]

Looks like this too is a general statement. Doesn't say SSJ is stronger than red. We know Goku evolved in red during the fight with Beerus too.

Well they aren't going to be that needlessly specific in the dialogue. We know that it was Super Saiyan that was stronger than Super Saiyan God, he didn't fight using any other form.

The episode that was called "Goku, Surpass Saiyan God" was the one where he turned back into a Super Saiyan.

Beerus said that Goku and Vegeta had become much stronger after they're training. That's why he was prepared to fight them again. This was before they had learned to become Super Saiyan God on their own.

It was never said anywhere that SSJ surpassed SSJ god. We know Goku in god kept evolving too. We also know Beerus kept questioning SSJ Goku about having god powers.

The point is only the BOG movie made a straight blatant comparison between god and SSJ. And SSJ was stated to be weaker than god. Hence why we don't see SSJ EVER stronger than god.

[PFM18]

Looks like this too is a general statement. Doesn't say SSJ is stronger than red. We know Goku evolved in red during the fight with Beerus too.

Well they aren't going to be that needlessly specific in the dialogue. We know that it was Super Saiyan that was stronger than Super Saiyan God, he didn't fight using any other form.

The episode that was called "Goku, Surpass Saiyan God" was the one where he turned back into a Super Saiyan.

Beerus said that Goku and Vegeta had become much stronger after they're training. That's why he was prepared to fight them again. This was before they had learned to become Super Saiyan God on their own.

It was never said anywhere that SSJ surpassed SSJ god. We know Goku in god kept evolving too. We also know Beerus kept questioning SSJ Goku about having god powers.

The point is only the BOG movie made a straight blatant comparison between god and SSJ. And SSJ was stated to be weaker than god. Hence why we don't see SSJ EVER stronger than god.

It says that at the end of an episode in which only golden SSJ is used. Beerus wasnt questioning Beerus whatsoever, Goku says that he hasnt lost any power and Beerus agrees with him and explains why this is the case. Beerus was provoking Goku to use more power, nothing more.

The movie is completely irrelevant and doesnt somehow take precedence over what is right in front of us. Tons of things were changed from the movie, so it doesnt matter. That is exactly why the retellings exist in the first place. Things had to be changed with the rest of an entire series in mind.

[Miracles]

Well they aren't going to be that needlessly specific in the dialogue. We know that it was Super Saiyan that was stronger than Super Saiyan God, he didn't fight using any other form.

The episode that was called "Goku, Surpass Saiyan God" was the one where he turned back into a Super Saiyan.

Beerus said that Goku and Vegeta had become much stronger after they're training. That's why he was prepared to fight them again. This was before they had learned to become Super Saiyan God on their own.

It was never said anywhere that SSJ surpassed SSJ god. We know Goku in god kept evolving too. We also know Beerus kept questioning SSJ Goku about having god powers.

The point is only the BOG movie made a straight blatant comparison between god and SSJ. And SSJ was stated to be weaker than god. Hence why we don't see SSJ EVER stronger than god.

It says that at the end of an episode in which only golden SSJ is used. Beerus wasnt questioning Beerus whatsoever, Goku says that he hasnt lost any power and Beerus agrees with him and explains why this is the case. Beerus was provoking Goku to use more power, nothing more.

The movie is completely irrelevant and doesnt somehow take precedence over what is right in front of us. Tons of things were changed from the movie, so it doesnt matter. That is exactly why the retellings exist in the first place. Things had to be changed with the rest of an entire series in mind.

You aren't taking this objectively. Beerus clearly question whether SSJ Goku had god powers. Then SSJ Goku finally SHOWS the power of SSJ God. Never did it say SSJ surpassed god. Only in BOG movie does it clearly give a comparison to god and SSJ, SSJ is weaker than god.

[PFM18]

It was never said anywhere that SSJ surpassed SSJ god. We know Goku in god kept evolving too. We also know Beerus kept questioning SSJ Goku about having god powers.

The point is only the BOG movie made a straight blatant comparison between god and SSJ. And SSJ was stated to be weaker than god. Hence why we don't see SSJ EVER stronger than god.

It says that at the end of an episode in which only golden SSJ is used. Beerus wasnt questioning Beerus whatsoever, Goku says that he hasnt lost any power and Beerus agrees with him and explains why this is the case. Beerus was provoking Goku to use more power, nothing more.

The movie is completely irrelevant and doesnt somehow take precedence over what is right in front of us. Tons of things were changed from the movie, so it doesnt matter. That is exactly why the retellings exist in the first place. Things had to be changed with the rest of an entire series in mind.

You aren't taking this objectively. Beerus clearly question whether SSJ Goku had god powers. Then SSJ Goku finally SHOWS the power of SSJ God. Never did it say SSJ surpassed god. Only in BOG movie does it clearly give a comparison to god and SSJ, SSJ is weaker than god.

the episode in which it states that Goku had surpassed Super Saiyan God, he was in SSJ the entire time. When the narrator comments about surpassing that level, it screens to SSJ Goku. Beerus and Goku had each already explicitly stated that Goku didnt lose any power upon dropping out of SSG. At NO point, is there any kind of clear indication that Goku had lost power when dropping from SSG to SSJ. It really couldn't be much more clear, you arent being objective about this.

Again, the movie has absolutely no bearing on this conversation.

[Bullza]

We also know Beerus kept questioning SSJ Goku about having god powers.

He questioned it once when Goku was under water half drowned because he couldn't breathe. When Goku came to, powered up and forced him out of the water and into space, Beerus said "This is the power of Super Saiyan God".

The questioning was more belittlement if anything. He was equally as strong upon first reverting and then in the end when he powered up more he had surpassed the level he was at as a Super Saiyan God.

That's why Vegeta said he had surpassed Super Saiyan God and why after Goku trained under Whis did Beerus say he'd become a lot stronger let's have another fight.

[Miracles]

It says that at the end of an episode in which only golden SSJ is used. Beerus wasnt questioning Beerus whatsoever, Goku says that he hasnt lost any power and Beerus agrees with him and explains why this is the case. Beerus was provoking Goku to use more power, nothing more.

The movie is completely irrelevant and doesnt somehow take precedence over what is right in front of us. Tons of things were changed from the movie, so it doesnt matter. That is exactly why the retellings exist in the first place. Things had to be changed with the rest of an entire series in mind.

You aren't taking this objectively. Beerus clearly question whether SSJ Goku had god powers. Then SSJ Goku finally SHOWS the power of SSJ God. Never did it say SSJ surpassed god. Only in BOG movie does it clearly give a comparison to god and SSJ, SSJ is weaker than god.

the episode in which it states that Goku had surpassed Super Saiyan God, he was in SSJ the entire time. When the narrator comments about surpassing that level, it screens to SSJ Goku. Beerus and Goku had each already explicitly stated that Goku didnt lose any power upon dropping out of SSG. At NO point, is there any kind of clear indication that Goku had lost power when dropping from SSG to SSJ. It really couldn't be much more clear, you arent being objective about this.

Again, the movie has absolutely no bearing on this conversation.

Wrong, Goku was red too in the episode that states Goku surpassed SSJ god. Beerus tells goku in red that he surpassed his limits time and time again. The narrator never says SSJ surpassed SSJ god, Beerus provoking Goku only proves the fact he had to do something to make SSJ as strong as god. With that, Goku only showed the power of SSJ god in SJJ. Never was it stated that he surpassed it in blonde. This is the objective truth.

[Miracles]

We also know Beerus kept questioning SSJ Goku about having god powers.

He questioned it once when Goku was under water half drowned because he couldn't breathe. When Goku came to, powered up and forced him out of the water and into space, Beerus said "This is the power of Super Saiyan God".

The questioning was more belittlement if anything. He was equally as strong upon first reverting and then in the end when he powered up more he had surpassed the level he was at as a Super Saiyan God.

That's why Vegeta said he had surpassed Super Saiyan God and why after Goku trained under Whis did Beerus say he'd become a lot stronger let's have another fight.

Goku in red kept surpassing his limits stated by Beerus in episode 13. Goku goes blonde and gets pwned and Beerus has to goad SSJ god power out of him. Never was it said Goku surpassed god in SSJ. No need to question if one has the god powers when Beerus earlier was praising Goku for surpassing it 's limits as a god. Context matters.

[PFM18]

You aren't taking this objectively. Beerus clearly question whether SSJ Goku had god powers. Then SSJ Goku finally SHOWS the power of SSJ God. Never did it say SSJ surpassed god. Only in BOG movie does it clearly give a comparison to god and SSJ, SSJ is weaker than god.

the episode in which it states that Goku had surpassed Super Saiyan God, he was in SSJ the entire time. When the narrator comments about surpassing that level, it screens to SSJ Goku. Beerus and Goku had each already explicitly stated that Goku didnt lose any power upon dropping out of SSG. At NO point, is there any kind of clear indication that Goku had lost power when dropping from SSG to SSJ. It really couldn't be much more clear, you arent being objective about this.

Again, the movie has absolutely no bearing on this conversation.

Wrong, Goku was red too in the episode that states Goku surpassed SSJ god. Beerus tells goku in red that he surpassed his limits time and time again. The narrator never says SSJ surpassed SSJ god, Beerus also questions if Goku had god powers. Goku only showed the power of SSJ god in SJJ. Never was it stated that he surpassed it in blonde. This is the objective truth.

Are you sure? If not the entire episode, it is most of the episode. The implication should obviously be that Goku had surpassed this level upon something actually changing. The narrator says it while it is showing SSJ Goku, so obviously he is referring to blonde. Beerus never actually questions if Goku had SSG power, he had stated that he did, and now he was provoking Goku to draw out more power. If he ever did have any doubt, it was vanquished when Goku pushed him back in SSJ.

Whichever way you slice it, there's certainly no reason to think he got weaker is the point of this conversation.

The questioning was more belittlement if anything. He was equally as strong upon first reverting and then in the end when he powered up more he had surpassed the level he was at as a Super Saiyan God.

Exactly.

[Miracles]

the episode in which it states that Goku had surpassed Super Saiyan God, he was in SSJ the entire time. When the narrator comments about surpassing that level, it screens to SSJ Goku. Beerus and Goku had each already explicitly stated that Goku didnt lose any power upon dropping out of SSG. At NO point, is there any kind of clear indication that Goku had lost power when dropping from SSG to SSJ. It really couldn't be much more clear, you arent being objective about this.

Again, the movie has absolutely no bearing on this conversation.

Wrong, Goku was red too in the episode that states Goku surpassed SSJ god. Beerus tells goku in red that he surpassed his limits time and time again. The narrator never says SSJ surpassed SSJ god, Beerus also questions if Goku had god powers. Goku only showed the power of SSJ god in SJJ. Never was it stated that he surpassed it in blonde. This is the objective truth.

Are you sure? If not the entire episode, it is most of the episode. The implication should obviously be that Goku had surpassed this level upon something actually changing. The narrator says it while it is showing SSJ Goku, so obviously he is referring to blonde. Beerus never actually questions if Goku had SSG power, he had stated that he did, and now he was provoking Goku to draw out more power. If he ever did have any doubt, it was vanquished when Goku pushed him back in SSJ.

Whichever way you slice it, there's certainly no reason to think he got weaker is the point of this conversation.

The questioning was more belittlement if anything. He was equally as strong upon first reverting and then in the end when he powered up more he had surpassed the level he was at as a Super Saiyan God.

Exactly.

There definitely is a reason to see that Goku in SSJ got weaker than god because why would Beerus need to question/provoke/belittle SSJ about not having god powers when earlier he was just praising red Goku for going beyond the limits of god again and again? Context matters.

[PFM18]

There definitely is a reason to see that Goku in SSJ got weaker than god because why would Beerus need to question/provoke/belittle SSJ about not having god powers when earlier he was just praising red Goku for going beyond the limits of god again and again? Context matters.

He doesn't. He was just provoking Goku to draw out more power. Right after the scene you are referencing when Goku powers up he says "that's it" and then "this is the power of a Super Saiyan God" so if there was any doubt for some reason after the explicit statement from Goku and Beerus prior to this, there's clarification that comes AFTER this scene. You're cherrypicking one line of dialogue that doesn't even mean what you claim it does, that is surrounded by statements that contradict the meaning you claim it has.

[Miracles]

There definitely is a reason to see that Goku in SSJ got weaker than god because why would Beerus need to question/provoke/belittle SSJ about not having god powers when earlier he was just praising red Goku for going beyond the limits of god again and again? Context matters.

He doesn't. He was just provoking Goku to draw out more power. Right after the scene you are referencing when Goku powers up he says "that's it" and then "this is the power of a Super Saiyan God" so if there was any doubt for some reason after the explicit statement from Goku and Beerus prior to this, there's clarification that comes AFTER this scene. You're cherrypicking one line of dialogue that doesn't even mean what you claim it does, that is surrounded by statements that contradict the meaning you claim it has.

There's no clarification that SSJ surpassed god. Even after Beerus provoking. Stop saying it like it makes a difference it doesn't. Objective fact. Your implications and suspicions aren't good enough.

[PFM18]

There definitely is a reason to see that Goku in SSJ got weaker than god because why would Beerus need to question/provoke/belittle SSJ about not having god powers when earlier he was just praising red Goku for going beyond the limits of god again and again? Context matters.

He doesn't. He was just provoking Goku to draw out more power. Right after the scene you are referencing when Goku powers up he says "that's it" and then "this is the power of a Super Saiyan God" so if there was any doubt for some reason after the explicit statement from Goku and Beerus prior to this, there's clarification that comes AFTER this scene. You're cherrypicking one line of dialogue that doesn't even mean what you claim it does, that is surrounded by statements that contradict the meaning you claim it has.

There's no clarification that SSJ surpassed god. Objective fact. Your implications suspicions aren't good enough.

Sure. You can believe that he didn't surpass it at that particular time, but it doesn't really matter because he got way stronger training with Whis. So if SSG wasn't left in the dust then, it certainly was during his training with Whis and Vegeta. Point is, there's absolutely no reason to believe that he lost power.

[Bullza]

Goku in red kept surpassing his limits stated by Beerus in episode 13. Goku goes blonde and gets pwned and Beerus has to goad SSJ god power out of him. Never was it said Goku surpassed god in SSJ. No need to question if one has the god powers when Beerus earlier was praising Goku for surpassing it 's limits as a god. Context matters.

Yeah and even after he reverted to Super Saiyan he still kept surpassing his limits it's that which allowed him to eventually surpass Super Saiyan God.

Where one Kamehameha from Super Saiyan Goku was negated effortlessly with one hand. The final Kamehameha which Goku fired after having seemingly passed his limits yet again was powerful enough that Beerus couldn't negate that one so easily which is why he instead countered with a blast of his own.

That final Kamehameha was more powerful than any Kamehameha he fired as a Super Saiyan God.

It didn't need to be said. What was said was that he wasn't any weaker. He had the exact same strength going from Super Saiyan God to Super Saiyan. He then passed his limits again as a Super Saiyan which put him above what he had shown as a Super Saiyan God.

After the training on his planet he's far more powerful still. If he were weaker than he was before then Beerus wouldn't have said the opposite or would have even wanted to fight him.

[Miracles]

He doesn't. He was just provoking Goku to draw out more power. Right after the scene you are referencing when Goku powers up he says "that's it" and then "this is the power of a Super Saiyan God" so if there was any doubt for some reason after the explicit statement from Goku and Beerus prior to this, there's clarification that comes AFTER this scene. You're cherrypicking one line of dialogue that doesn't even mean what you claim it does, that is surrounded by statements that contradict the meaning you claim it has.

There's no clarification that SSJ surpassed god. Objective fact. Your implications suspicions aren't good enough.

Sure. You can believe that he didn't surpass it at that particular time, but it doesn't really matter because he got way stronger training with Whis. So if SSG wasn't left in the dust then, it certainly was during his training with Whis and Vegeta. Point is, there's absolutely no reason to believe that he lost power.

SSJ was weaker than god because Beerus asked where the god powers were then Goku finally powers up and all he could do is show the power of SSJ god.

Goku in red kept surpassing his limits stated by Beerus in episode 13. Goku goes blonde and gets pwned and Beerus has to goad SSJ god power out of him. Never was it said Goku surpassed god in SSJ. No need to question if one has the god powers when Beerus earlier was praising Goku for surpassing it 's limits as a god. Context matters.

Yeah and even after he reverted to Super Saiyan he still kept surpassing his limits it's that which allowed him to eventually surpass Super Saiyan God.

Where one Kamehameha from Super Saiyan Goku was negated effortlessly with one hand. The final Kamehameha which Goku fired after having seemingly passed his limits yet again was powerful enough that Beerus couldn't negate that one so easily which is why he instead countered with a blast of his own.

That final Kamehameha was more powerful than any Kamehameha he fired as a Super Saiyan God.

It didn't need to be said. What was said was that he wasn't any weaker. He had the exact same strength going from Super Saiyan God to Super Saiyan. He then passed his limits again as a Super Saiyan which put him above what he had shown as a Super Saiyan God.

After the training on his planet he's far more powerful still. If he were weaker than he was before then Beerus wouldn't have said the opposite or would have even wanted to fight him.

The training with Whis has no bearing on whether SSJ being stronger than god. Also no, the Kamehameha Goku shot in red with the universe shattering clash was greater than the SSJ where Beerus claimed he had to nullify it with great power..

[PFM18]

SSJ was weaker than god because Beerus asked where the god powers were then Goku finally powers up and all he could do is show the power of SSJ god.

at this point you're just not interested in being objective. There's statements that SSJ=SSG both before and after the scene you are referencing that you insist upon ignoring. Any doubt that Beerus would have had after just prior complementing Goku on retaining the power, SHOULD have been gone after Goku pushes him back, calls it the power of a SSG.

[Bullza]

The training with Whis has no bearing on whether SSJ being stronger than god.

It makes no difference whether it was Super Saiyan or anything else. Beerus very plainly said that Goku had become much stronger, whether that's in his Base, Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 3, he was stronger at that point than when he fought Beerus regardless, that's just a fact.

And that does not include Super Saiyan Blue which he did not have at the time.

Also no, the Kamehameha Goku shot in red with the universe shattering clash was greater than the SSJ where Beerus claimed he had to nullify it with great power..

He claimed he had to use 100% of his power to nullify it but that was a confirmed lie. Beerus threw a purple energy blast and Super Saiyan God Goku fired a Kamehameha that clashed with it and created a small blast of energy which Beerus nullified.

The Kamehameha that Super Saiyan Goku fired at the very end, Beerus said was not so easily nullified meaning it was more powerful. That was why he countered that Kamehameha with a larger purple energy blast which created a much larger, more powerful ball of energy that looked like the sun.

In fact initially that single purple blast overwhelmed Super Saiyan God Goku and he had to surpass his limits again to match it. Meanwhile Super Saiyan Goku was actually holding back the larger combined blast and Beerus had to add even more energy to it for it to overwhelm him.

[Miracles]

SSJ was weaker than god because Beerus asked where the god powers were then Goku finally powers up and all he could do is show the power of SSJ god.

at this point you're just not interested in being objective. There's statements that SSJ=SSG both before and after the scene you are referencing that you insist upon ignoring. Any doubt that Beerus would have had after just prior complementing Goku on retaining the power, SHOULD have been gone after Goku pushes him back, calls it
the power of a SSG.

No one is saying Goku did not have the power of god in SSJ. But the performance was weaker due to Beerus having to draw it out. There are no statements backing you up either. It's all suspicion about SSJ being stronger than Super Saiyan god.

The training with Whis has no bearing on whether SSJ being stronger than god.

It makes no difference whether it was Super Saiyan or anything else. Beerus very plainly said that Goku had become much stronger, whether that's in his Base, Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 3, he was stronger at that point than when he fought Beerus regardless, that's just a fact.

And that does not include Super Saiyan Blue which he did not have at the time.

Also no, the Kamehameha Goku shot in red with the universe shattering clash was greater than the SSJ where Beerus claimed he had to nullify it with great power..

He claimed he had to use 100% of his power to nullify it but that was a confirmed lie. Beerus threw a purple energy blast and Super Saiyan God Goku fired a Kamehameha that clashed with it and created a small blast of energy which Beerus nullified.

The Kamehameha that Super Saiyan Goku fired at the very end, Beerus said was not so easily nullified meaning it was more powerful. That was why he countered that Kamehameha with a larger purple energy blast which created a much larger, more powerful ball of energy that looked like the sun.

In fact initially that single purple blast overwhelmed Super Saiyan God Goku and he had to surpass his limits again to match it. Meanwhile Super Saiyan Goku was actually holding back the larger combined blast and Beerus had to add even more energy to it for it to overwhelm him.

None of it proves SSJ was stronger than god. The energy clash with SSJ and Beerus didn't do anywhere near the damage as SSJ god and Beerus.
No one is denying that Goku absorbing god powers improved all his modes BTW. The point is, SSJ wasn't stated or shown stronger than god.