Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ssj3kakarot]

"State of the Gods" just refers to Ultra Instinct. Ultra Instinct is a state of the Gods. Vegeta's statement had nothing to do with the Gods of Destruction, just like Whis' usage of the term had nothing to do with them.

And there's no reason why Toppo would be magically weaker than every other God of Destruction. Nothing implies it and it's nonsensical for people to claim that that despite being stated to be a God of Destruction no different from any other by Belmod, he for some reason was nowhere near their level. None of the Gods of Destruction are "fodder" to any of the others as seen in their match in the manga. Beerus can't wipe the floor with any God of Destruction. So no he can't beat Vegeta.

Toppo is still a God of Destruction candidate after all.

Vegeta can't beat Beerus since UI Omen Goku can't.

Toppo being a God candidate means nothing against him. If you're a candidate then you're already regarded as suitable enough. He's stated to be no different from a God of Destruction.

"State of the Gods" just refers to Ultra Instinct. Ultra Instinct is a state of the Gods. Vegeta's statement had nothing to do with the Gods of Destruction, just like Whis' usage of the term had nothing to do with them.

And there's no reason why Toppo would be magically weaker than every other God of Destruction. Nothing implies it and it's nonsensical for people to claim that that despite being stated to be a God of Destruction no different from any other by Belmod, he for some reason was nowhere near their level. None of the Gods of Destruction are "fodder" to any of the others as seen in their match in the manga. Beerus can't wipe the floor with any God of Destruction. So no he can't beat Vegeta.

Ultra Instinct was never been stated to be a state of the Gods, first and foremost. We can reasonably deduce that it's actually more a state of the angels. Probably closer to a technique of the angels. Especiall since it seems that none of the current Gods of Destruction seem to be able to use mastered Ultra at will or at all, in the anime at least. Beerus wasn't even sure that Goku was in masterd ultra, and had to ask Whis. Further, Whis seems to be the only one who knows anything about ultra.r

Anyway, back to the real backwards thinking. You find no reason that Toppo should be weaker? No reason? So all saiyans are born with similar power levels? Are all super saiyans have similar power levels? Supreme Kais have been shown to have
wildly different power levels? Why would Gods of Destruction's be any different? Gods who have been Gods of Destructions for thousands of years. We don't even really understand how God of Destruction works even. Is it a transformation that you are taught? Do you need a certain power level to even undergo the process?

It's not Toppo being magically weaker,its him being vastly newer to the game. Belmods statement about Toppo being no different was that in kind, not in power level. And their match in the manga has very little weight in a anime discussion. If we are to use the manga, it only furthers my point that people like Belmod, Beerus, and Ratface, are probably the top 3 Gods. The manga doesn't help your case, it hurts it.

Ultra Instinct is stated to be a state of the Gods by Whis and Vegeta. The Angels are Gods. The Kaioshin, Gods of Destruction, Angels and Zeno are all Gods. If Toppo is vastly weaker than he isn't the same. Him being a God for less time than the others isn't stated to be relevant to anything. He was comparable to the rest on all areas. The level of power is part of what defines a God of Destruction. There is a power requirement. People like Jiren are stated to have surpassed that state due to his power. None of the Gods of Destruction have surpassed the state. They all share the same plane of power hence why they're always talked about as a whole when power comparisons are brought up. There is no "he's way weaker than Beerus but a lot stronger than Sidra".

The angels are NOT Gods. Clearly. Just like the Sayians are NOT humans. Gods in the Dragonball verse are not deities like the word generally describes. It is a position. Little Green, aka Dende, is a God. King kai, a God. Supreme Kai, a God. Beerus, a God of Destruction. These are titles given, a job really. Angels are a different race in Super. Clearly above anything we have ever encountered. Zeno, maybe he is an actual deity. Or maybe he, too, is filling a position. But the Angels are not Gods. They are Angels because their biology. That makes them very unique and thus you cannot put them in the same category as Gods of Destruction-type Gods.

Even though I start to wade into head-canon territory now, and I can admit that up front. Every time a God of Destruction uses the hakai energy, aka booty butter,aka God of Destruction power, its that purply stuff. That's what defines a God of Destruction, the ability to use Destruction power. Toppo is being considered the same in title, in ability, not in power level. They share the title, the energy destruction, not the same power level.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Toppo is still a God of Destruction candidate after all.

Vegeta can't beat Beerus since UI Omen Goku can't.

Toppo being a God candidate means nothing against him. If you're a candidate then you're already regarded as suitable enough. He's stated to be no different from a God of Destruction.

Ultra Instinct was never been stated to be a state of the Gods, first and foremost. We can reasonably deduce that it's actually more a state of the angels. Probably closer to a technique of the angels. Especiall since it seems that none of the current Gods of Destruction seem to be able to use mastered Ultra at will or at all, in the anime at least. Beerus wasn't even sure that Goku was in masterd ultra, and had to ask Whis. Further, Whis seems to be the only one who knows anything about ultra.r

Anyway, back to the real backwards thinking. You find no reason that Toppo should be weaker? No reason? So all saiyans are born with similar power levels? Are all super saiyans have similar power levels? Supreme Kais have been shown to have
wildly different power levels? Why would Gods of Destruction's be any different? Gods who have been Gods of Destructions for thousands of years. We don't even really understand how God of Destruction works even. Is it a transformation that you are taught? Do you need a certain power level to even undergo the process?

It's not Toppo being magically weaker,its him being vastly newer to the game. Belmods statement about Toppo being no different was that in kind, not in power level. And their match in the manga has very little weight in a anime discussion. If we are to use the manga, it only furthers my point that people like Belmod, Beerus, and Ratface, are probably the top 3 Gods. The manga doesn't help your case, it hurts it.

Ultra Instinct is stated to be a state of the Gods by Whis and Vegeta. The Angels are Gods. The Kaioshin, Gods of Destruction, Angels and Zeno are all Gods. If Toppo is vastly weaker than he isn't the same. Him being a God for less time than the others isn't stated to be relevant to anything. He was comparable to the rest on all areas. The level of power is part of what defines a God of Destruction. There is a power requirement. People like Jiren are stated to have surpassed that state due to his power. None of the Gods of Destruction have surpassed the state. They all share the same plane of power hence why they're always talked about as a whole when power comparisons are brought up. There is no "he's way weaker than Beerus but a lot stronger than Sidra".

The angels are NOT Gods. Clearly. Just like the Sayians are NOT humans. Gods in the Dragonball verse are not deities like the word generally describes. It is a position. Little Green, aka Dende, is a God. King kai, a God. Supreme Kai, a God. Beerus, a God of Destruction. These are titles given, a job really. Angels are a different race in Super. Clearly above anything we have ever encountered. Zeno, maybe he is an actual deity. Or maybe he, too, is filling a position. But the Angels are not Gods. They are Angels because their biology. That makes them very unique and thus you cannot put them in the same category as Gods of Destruction-type Gods.

Even though I start to wade into head-canon territory now, and I can admit that up front. Every time a God of Destruction uses the hakai energy, aka booty butter,aka God of Destruction power, its that purply stuff. That's what defines a God of Destruction, the ability to use Destruction power. Toppo is being considered the same in title, in ability, not in power level. They share the title, the energy destruction, not the same power level.

The Kaioshin, Gods of Destruction, Angels and Zeno are all deities. "God of Destruction" is simply a position. Beerus would still be a God if he didn't have that position just like Toppo was stated to be a God despite having no official position. And SSJG Goku was stated to be a God despite having no official position. All of them have God ki. Ultra Instinct is a state of the Gods as stated by Whis. Goku was the first mortal to reach it. The Angels are Gods. They don't have to be God of Destruction type Gods.

There is a power requirement to be a God of Destruction. This idea that Toppo is the same as a God in everything but power level despite Belmod saying otherwise is unsubstantiated. The power is what makes a God of Destruction, not just having Destruction Energy. You're reaching. The obvious intention here is that Toppo simply isn't any different from any of the other Gods of Destruction that were sitting in the stands. If he's a weakling compared to all of them, then he's a lot different. It's that simple. Just like Goku in the manga can use Destruction Energy but isn't referred to as God of Destruction level because he doesn't have enough power.

[ankokudaishogun]

God can mean:
either POSITION(Kami, Dende, the Kaiohs)
or HAVING GOD KI(Toppo, Goku&Vegeta)
or both(Gods of Destructions, etc)

[RecolorSaiyan]

If Toppo is no different to GoDs in power then that would mean Toppo ~= Beerus and Belmod

Toei's own promotional material says 3rd UIO Goku MIGHT be > Beerus

Vegeta, Goku, 17 and Freeza all got smacked by a suppressed jiren, UIO Goku forced him to FP.

So by this logic Jiren > UIO Goku > SSBE Vegeta > Toppo ~= GoDs

if Beerus ~ 3rd UIO then how can he be relative to Toppo or Vegeta?
Nagamine told us vegeta is desperately trying to catch up to a goku who is closing in on GoD level. So which one is it?

[PFM18]

If Toppo is no different to GoDs in power then that would mean Toppo ~= Beerus and Belmod

Toei's own promotional material says 3rd UIO Goku MIGHT be > Beerus

Vegeta, Goku, 17 and Freeza all got smacked by a suppressed jiren, UIO Goku forced him to FP.

So by this logic Jiren > UIO Goku > SSBE Vegeta > Toppo ~= GoDs

if Beerus ~ 3rd UIO then how can he be relative to Toppo or Vegeta?

Well said. Those beliefs can't co-exist.

Nagamine told us vegeta is desperately trying to catch up to a goku who is closing in on GoD level. So which one is it?

No idea why he said that. We'll find out in the movie.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Or Goku and Beerus aren't rivals in power since the promotional material doesn't actually say that. It makes no mention to quantify the gap between them. It says that Goku could be stronger and leaves it at that. And any assumption that the material tried to equate them is just that, an assumption.

And there's no evidence that the material is referring to something as obscure as "the 3rd UI Omen usage" either. There's no indication that the picture poses any relevance beyond just being a picture of Goku using UI.

[ankokudaishogun]

So by this logic Jiren > UIO Goku > SSBE Vegeta > Toppo ~= GoDs

if Beerus ~ 3rd UIO then how can he be relative to Toppo or Vegeta?

easy: not alla GoDs have the same exact power-level.

Vegeta Evolution might well be weaker than some GoDs(Beerus~=Omen Goku) while being stronger than others(Toppo) all while everybody remaining in the general "GoD level"

Though I wouldn't bother using promotional materials for comparison.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Well, Toppo doesnt have to be equal to all gods.
The gap between 3rd omen goku and blue evolution vegeta, while wide, its still around the same realm. toppo and vegeta could very well be at the level of hakaishins, being stronger or at the level of the weakest ones. Beerus might be the strongest hakaishin, being up there with jiren and UI goku (and the gap between jiren and belmod might be kinda small too, who knows). I dont see a contradiction here at all. There is no reason to put all hakaishins exactly equal to one another.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Vegeta and Toppo being Active GoD level is contradicted by Nagamine saying that Goku is NEARING the level of the Gods (plural) while Vegeta is desperately trying to catch up. That would imply vegeta is not at the active GoD level yet.

[Marlowe89]

Though I wouldn't bother using promotional materials for comparison.

Especially not when said material is too vaguely worded to properly quantify or confirm anything, contains dialogue that was ultimately unused in the episode it's promoting, and even specifies Goku "completing/mastering" (極める) Ultra Instinct before mentioning Beerus's replaced dialogue (meaning it couldn't be singling out Sign).

Supplemental materials are fine when they're explicit with their own content, but promotions like this are usually anything but. You're more likely to find something clear-cut from official merchandise rather than a magazine ad.

[Kenneth La Torre]

That statement has nothing to do with gods of destruction, just gods in general. It says that goku is basically almost a god, while vegeta is trying to catch up.

It isnt goku nearing hakaishin level because, hes already at least at that level with completed ui, and defeated a mortal beyond at the very least his hakaishin.

Its talking about god in general. As UI was reference as being the state of the gods, despite only angels having the complete form of it.

But its still debatable wether toppo and vegeta are at hakaishin level. I assume they are, but thats just my head canon.

About 129 ui goku possibly surpassing beerus. Lets say its the complete UI they are mentioning, 129 UI goku its still outclassed by 130 jiren and UI gokus self. So this is again something that doesnt help us guess if beerus has been surpassed. At best we can say jiren, UI goku, and beerus are at the same relavence of power, with goku having the best reflexes thanks to UI.

[PFM18]

Especially not when said material is too vaguely worded to properly quantify or confirm anything, contains dialogue that was ultimately unused in the episode it's promoting, and even specifies Goku "completing/mastering" (極める) Ultra Instinct before mentioning Beerus's replaced dialogue (meaning it couldn't be singling out Sign).

Disregarding your attempt at feigning Japanese fluency, the line 100% refers to Sign because it literally shows UI Omen Goku, with the black hair, right next to the line that is being discussed. No idea why they would be referring to Completed UI when it literally shows the opposite right next to it.

Well, Toppo doesnt have to be equal to all gods.
The gap between 3rd omen goku and blue evolution vegeta, while wide, its still around the same realm. toppo and vegeta could very well be at the level of hakaishins, being stronger or at the level of the weakest ones. Beerus might be the strongest hakaishin, being up there with jiren and UI goku (and the gap between jiren and belmod might be kinda small too, who knows). I dont see a contradiction here at all. There is no reason to put all hakaishins exactly equal to one another.

I agree 100%. Toppo/SSBE Vegeta could be on the level of the Hakaishin, while also being considerably weaker than Beerus.

[Miracles]

Though I wouldn't bother using promotional materials for comparison.

Especially not when said material is too vaguely worded to properly quantify or confirm anything, contains dialogue that was ultimately unused in the episode it's promoting, and even specifies Goku "completing/mastering" (極める) Ultra Instinct before mentioning Beerus's replaced dialogue (meaning it couldn't be singling out Sign).

Supplemental materials are fine when they're explicit with their own content, but promotions like this are usually anything but. You're more likely to find something clear-cut from official merchandise rather than a magazine ad.

So that anime magazine was talking about completed Ultra Instinct maybe being above Beerus and not the half baked version?

That statement has nothing to do with gods of destruction, just gods in general. It says that goku is basically almost a god, while vegeta is trying to catch up.

It isnt goku nearing hakaishin level because, hes already at least at that level with completed ui, and defeated a mortal beyond at the very least his hakaishin.

Its talking about god in general. As UI was reference as being the state of the gods, despite only angels having the complete form of it.

But its still debatable wether toppo and vegeta are at hakaishin level. I assume they are, but thats just my head canon.

About 129 ui goku possibly surpassing beerus. Lets say its the complete UI they are mentioning, 129 UI goku its still outclassed by 130 jiren and UI gokus self. So this is again something that doesnt help us guess if beerus has been surpassed. At best we can say jiren, UI goku, and beerus are at the same relavence of power, with goku having the best reflexes thanks to UI.

I think it's safe to assume that statement was talking gods of destruction as well. Due to the power comparison between Goku and Vegeta. Who are pretty much god of destruction level.

[PFM18]

So that anime magazine was talking about completed Ultra Instinct maybe being above Beerus and not the half baked version?

No, it shows Omen right next to it. It was obvious that it was referring to Omen and I don't think Herms' translatioon had "completed/mastered" in it IIRc.

[Marlowe89]

So that anime magazine was talking about completed Ultra Instinct maybe being above Beerus and not the half baked version?

Affirmative. The scan is a summary/advertisement for Episode 129 and specifically refers to Goku mastering Ultra Instinct (kiwameru/極める literally means "to master") followed by the line where Beerus supposedly questions if Goku is even stronger than him. In the final version of that episode, that line was replaced with him just declaring that Goku finally mastered Ultra Instinct.

Others on Twitter with more proficiency in the language than me have translated the line and vouched for the same thing, so that pretty much eliminates the possibility of it being a reference to Ultra Instinct Sign. Herms himself never directly translated the words on the scan, he just briefly mentioned what Beerus's cut dialogue said.

[ekrolo2]

I mean, Whis refers to Jiren as a warrior who's surpassed Hakaishin without even seeing him go all out and Goku is superior to him with UI, that should tell us Beerus has been surpassed by, at the very least, two people by now.

[Miracles]

So that anime magazine was talking about completed Ultra Instinct maybe being above Beerus and not the half baked version?

Affirmative. The scan is a summary/advertisement for Episode 129 and specifically refers to Goku mastering Ultra Instinct (kiwameru/極める literally means "to master") followed by the line where Beerus supposedly questions if Goku is even stronger than him. In the final version of that episode, that line was replaced with him just declaring that Goku finally mastered Ultra Instinct.

Others on Twitter with more proficiency in the language than me have translated the line and vouched for the same thing, so that pretty much eliminates the possibility of it being a reference to Ultra Instinct Sign. Herms himself never directly translated the words on the scan, he just briefly mentioned what Beerus's cut dialogue said.

I see. Thanks for that.

So that anime magazine was talking about completed Ultra Instinct maybe being above Beerus and not the half baked version?

No, it shows Omen right next to it. It was obvious that it was referring to Omen and I don't think Herms' translatioon had "completed/mastered" in it IIRc.

Why would they have Beerus suspect UI omen when the episode in question was when Goku mastered UI?
I think Marlowe89 is on to something here.

[PFM18]

Why would they have Beerus suspect UI omen when the episode in question was when Goku mastered UI?

...because for 90% of the episode in question he was using UI Omen? Why would he be referring to the completed version when it barely makes an appearance at the end? Jiren is stronger than Belmod, and beyond the GoDs, and 3rd UI Omen Goku was really close to Beerus, so it makes perfect sense that he would be around Beerus as the magazine indicates. If Goku surpassed Jiren, who was stronger than the GoDs, why would there be any question that he was stronger than Beerus? I don't see how the implication is anything other than 3rd UI Omen Goku~Beerus.

[Miracles]

Why would they have Beerus suspect UI omen when the episode in question was when Goku mastered UI?

...because for 90% of the episode in question he was using UI Omen? Why would he be referring to the completed version when it barely makes an appearance at the end? Jiren is stronger than Belmod, and beyond the GoDs, and 3rd UI Omen Goku was really close to Beerus, so it makes perfect sense that he would be around Beerus as the magazine indicates. If Goku surpassed Jiren, who was stronger than the GoDs, why would there be any question that he was stronger than Beerus? I don't see how the implication is anything other than 3rd UI Omen Goku~Beerus.

Episode 129 title said Goku masters UI. The magazine straight up talks about UI Goku, not the fan name "omen."

[Kenneth La Torre]

What I'm about to say its Not really a debate about wether UI goku and jiren surpassed beerus, but its more of how powerful jiren and UI goku actually are in the scheme of things.

To me, its not really important if jiren and goku have surpassed beerus, whats important is that a 129 Completed UI goku was hinted to be at beerus level, if not maybe slightly higher by promotional material, and that goes for Limit Breaker jiren as well, who was able to go toe to toe against CUI goku.

Think of how big of a powerhouse beerus is, that the whole of super he has been waiting (and still is) for a rival who he can go all out against.
Think of the fact that he may very well be the strongest hakaishin, and not by a slight edge. Think of the fact that he is the only one who has been shown with UI omen.

Jiren and UI goku just being at beerus level is amazing on its own, even if they are not above it.