The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Super Vegetto]

Transformation gives more boost than zenkai so there is nothing to discuss here...

[Super Vegetto]

This is what i found and i what to see what you guys think:

(Freeza) (BP)
Normal Goku (3,000,000)
Normal Goku (Kaio-ken x10) (30,000,000)
Normal Goku (Kaio-ken x20) (60,000,000)
Super Saiyan Goku (150,000,000) (50x increase)

(Majin Buu) (Kiri)
Yakon (800)
Normal (higher than 800, probably 1,000 or 1,500)
Super Saiyan (3,000) (2x/3x increase)

I believe in one of the more recent data books Toriyama states that he originally imagined the Super Saiyan transformation as multiplying Goku's base power by 10x


OK, now we have 3 different conflicting (or are they?) statements on just how much stronger Goku becomes by transforming. I think I figured out a way to reconcile these.

During Goku's first transformation he indeed becomes 50x stronger than his base... or his old base. The transformation didn't just multiply his power by 50, but increased his natural power 5-fold then multiplies by 10-fold (temporarily) on top of that. So now he'd look like this:

Normal Goku (15,000,000)
Super Saiyan Goku (150,000,000) (10x increase)


Ah, but what about Kaio-ken? Why wouldn't Goku just use it x20! Then he'd be twice as strong as a Super Saiyan! Well, I think we need to look to another big strength increase, Gohan's in the Majin Buu arc where his Super Saiyan forms don't do anything! I think this is because those forms are actually still multiplying off his original base, even after the boost in power.

Gohan (A)
Gohan (B) (Way stronger than x10 Gohan (A))
Super Saiyan Gohan (Gohan Ax10)


Even if he uses Super Saiyan, it's still weaker than his 'new base', effectively giving him no strength bonus, just a waste of ki.

So Goku's Kaio-ken multiplications are still multiplying off his 'old base' while his Super Saiyan transformation is multiplying off his 'new base'

Normal Goku (15,000,000)
Normal Goku (Kaio-ken x10) (30,000,000)
Normal Goku (Kaio-ken x20) (60,000,000)
Super Saiyan Goku (150,000,000) (10x increase)


Even if Goku used Kaio-ken x40, he'd still be weaker than his Super Saiyan form, so I assume he just gave up on that technique.

Now there's the problem of his Super Saiyan transformation going from a 10x increase to a 2x or 3x increase in the Buu arc. However, since I've established Goku's power as rising 5-fold after transforming into a Super Saiyan then his new form being a 10x increase on top of that, we can assume that this is true for Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3, but if these new forms are a 10x increase, then the original Super Saiyan (or Super Saiyan 2 circa Super Saiyan 3) must now become a lower multiplier (and guess what, halving the Super Saiyan increase with each successive transformation ends up with a 2.5x increase on Goku's base form, the perfect number between the probable 2x or 3x I established earlier):

(note: these battle powers are all assuming that Goku didn't gain any strength other than what he got from the Super Saiyan transformations to make everything super simple)

Normal Goku (3,000,000 BP/10 Kiri)

Normal Goku (15,000,000/48 Kiri)
Super Saiyan Goku (150,000,000/480 Kiri) (10x)

Normal Goku (75,000,000/240 Kiri)
Super Saiyan Goku (375,000,000/1,200 Kiri) (5x)
Super Saiyan 2 Goku (750,000,000/2,400 Kiri) (10x)

Normal Goku (375,000,000/1,200 Kiri)
Super Saiyan Goku (937,500,000 BP/3,000 Kiri) (2.5x)
Super Saiyan 2 Goku (1,875,000,000 BP/6,000 Kiri) (5x)
Super Saiyan 3 Goku (3,750,000,000 BP/12,000 Kiri) (10x)


Super Kaio Ken (x2 on top of whatever the original Super Saiyan's multiplier is or equivelant to Super Saiyan 2, although massively less efficient I suppose)

[hleV]

he should have known that bulking up would achieve nothing and warning them not to attack him would actually be a bad idea.

Being desperate excuses this just fine. If I were Cell, I'd probably try everything I can as well.

Except Cell knew that it wouldn't help. Trunks tried the same thing and it didn't work, remember? Cell even taunted Trunks about it.

Again, he was desperate, so it doesn't matter what he knew and what he didn't prior to Gohan ascending and kicking his ass. Also, NOT bulking up wouldn't have helped him either. Why not try something different?

[Piccolo Daimao]

SSJ2 Kid Gohan vs Perfect Cell(Post Zenkai)
The difference is Gohan does not break his arm and they do not go into a beam struggle to end the whole thing right away. They do a real fight to the death.

I think that Gohan's slightly stronger than Cell, since he was still able to override Cell's regeneration and completely obliterate him with a full-power Kamehameha, even after his broken arm had decreased his power. So, eventually, Gohan would defeat him.

Cell isn't stupid enough to teleport back to Earth in order to fight Gohan if he's not strong enough.

I think you're seriously underestimate Cell's arrogance, something that most villains in DB fall victim to. I believe he figured that, since he'd "vastly powered up like Son Gohan", he thought that he'd gained such an immense boost in power that he could now defeat Gohan. But probably his joy at his lucky escape and/or strength increase clouded his judgement (plus, you don't expect Cell to just shuffle away like a coward and not return to Earth to finish the job he started, do you? That's like Freeza recovering from his defeat on Namek and not going to Earth for revenge on Gokuu), plus him not counting on Gohan's dormant power. There's even an argument to be made that Gohan never released his full power until that final Kamehameha, which destroyed Cell, since beforehand, he was so much stronger than Cell that he wouldn't even have to use his full power to knock him around like a pinball anyway.

Also, since I do think it's implied that Cell's almost as strong as Gohan now, he probably still counted on destroying the planet if he couldn't win with his own strength, like he attempted last time. There's no Gokuu to Shunkan-Idou him out of there, so he's free to let rip with a Kamehameha (which he actually did, claiming that he'd gathered enough ki to blow away not only Earth, but the solar system, but then Gohan countered with his own Kamehameha and killed him).

[dbgtFO]

*Super Saiyan multiplier analysis*

When I first saw this post, I had a deja vu, but now I see it's almost word for word the same post beast mode made awhile back.

[Kaboom]

*Super Saiyan multiplier analysis*

I think arguments like these are really just over-complicating the whole thing. Super Saiyan doesn't have to be anything more or less than the regular 50x that basically every piece of supplemental info out there says it is, and nothing in the story itself would lead us to believe that the form because less powerful over time. There's certainly nothing to suggest that Goku's Super Saiyan power managed to magically transfer itself into his base somehow, either. Goku's base form was never significant to the story again after the moment Freeza went to 50% anyway. Shoot, if you ask me, when it comes to figuring out post-Freeza battle powers, having solid and official multipliers for things like Super Saiyan (even for SSj2 and SSj3 now!) nowadays that can be considered universal across the board is a blessing.

As for Goku vs Yakon, we really know too little about the kiri system to use that as proof of anything. How can we try to judge what the multiplier is from that if we don't know things like Goku's base power in kiri, or whether or not Goku was at full power when transformed (he has the ability to freely control his output now, remember)? It's kind of a dead end, and the additional info from the anime (200-300 kiri is minimum planet-destroying level, Dabra > 4000 kiri) just make it more confusing.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Yeah, Gokuu only transformed to generate light, and the 800/3,000 kiri readings are meant to be symbolic anyway. I doubt Toriyama put much thought into it, especially after it'd been so long since the story had numbered power measurements.

[Fox666]

I agree with Kaboom, that only makes everything more complicated. If Kiri was supposed to mean anything, we will never know what exactly it is. But as far we know, it may not have any special meaning, or mean something that would serve for a purpose.

1 - The number 800 and 3,000 have strong symbolism behind it.
2 - Dabra is convinced 3,000 is nothing for him, while someone even weaker than Goku like Gohan could give him a hard time. That suggests Goku may not have released all of his power as a Super Saiyan at the time.
3 - It doesn't provide an expected difference beetween Yakon and Goku, which makes it open for many interpretations.

[Super Vegetto]

Yea i see what you guys mean about this..well power levels during Frieza arc realy dont make sence like Vegeta 30,000 against Reccome and after that he can rival Frieza in first form lv 530,000..that didnt make sence at all...well my opinion about what this guy whanted to prove is more like if we always go for 50x multiply for ssj and if characters got improved during lets say Cell saga in the base would mean they are already on billions which is way to much in my opinion...For zenkai it was proven that 18,000 to 24,000 and 24,000 to 30,000 but after that they put more multiply for zenkai and thats why things went wrong..after that Goku in time chamber like everyday got 1 mill from training so on that level in such short time he becomed stronger than when he trained on Yardrat and before Androids...so Goku after 7 years would be like lets say base of 10 billions and + 50x ssj which is way to much...also i heard somewhere something like when you mastered some ssj form you cant get that form higher and thats why transformation comes after that...but by llogic that base always gets up and 50x for ssj would mean in 50 years base could rival ssj3...

[hleV]

Yea i see what you guys mean about this..well power levels during Freeza arc realy dont make sence like Vegeta 30,000 against Reccome and after that he can rival Freeza in first form lv 530,000..that didnt make sence at all...

Vegeta got a Zenkai which booster him from 30,000 to 250,000 (which possibly became around 500,000 after he took a nap).

well my opinion about what this guy whanted to prove is more like if we always go for 50x multiply for ssj and if characters got improved during lets say Cell saga in the base would mean they are already on billions which is way to much in my opinion...

How much is too much in DB world?

For zenkai it was proven that 18,000 to 24,000 and 24,000 to 30,000 but after that they put more multiply for zenkai and thats why things went wrong..

There's a nice theory that Saiyans started receiving greater Zenkais because they were closing to unlocking the Super Saiyan form. The 18,000 to 24,000 and 24,000 to 30,000 cases weren't really near-death situation Zenkais, but rather great injury ones. Later we see Dende's healing and Sensu resulting in Zenkais of quite a different level.

after that Goku in time chamber like everyday got 1 mill from training so on that level in such short time he becomed stronger than when he trained on Yardrat and before Androids...

I don't agree with "everyday got 1 mill", but the training in ROSAT was different, as they were also going for the mastery of Super Saiyan form.

so Goku after 7 years would be like lets say base of 10 billions and + 50x ssj which is way to much...

I don't agree with Goku's base being anywhere near 10 billion, but again, how much is too much in DB world?

also i heard somewhere something like when you mastered some ssj form you cant get that form higher and thats why transformation comes after that...but by llogic that base always gets up and 50x for ssj would mean in 50 years base could rival ssj3...

That doesn't really make much sense as DB has shown the no-limits rule and that characters can always become stronger.

Also you should work more on your English.

[Super Vegetto]

Yea i see what you guys mean about this..well power levels during Freeza arc realy dont make sence like Vegeta 30,000 against Reccome and after that he can rival Freeza in first form lv 530,000..that didnt make sence at all...

Vegeta got a Zenkai which booster him from 30,000 to 250,000 (which possibly became around 500,000 after he took a nap).

Are you kidding me ? He took a nap and got more boost ? Thants like saying Goku got more boost from recovering becasue he was to longer than Vegeta in there...

For zenkai it was proven that 18,000 to 24,000 and 24,000 to 30,000 but after that they put more multiply for zenkai and thats why things went wrong..

There's a nice theory that Saiyans started receiving greater Zenkais because they were closing to unlocking the Super Saiyan form. The 18,000 to 24,000 and 24,000 to 30,000 cases weren't really near-death situation Zenkais, but rather great injury ones. Later we see Dende's healing and Sensu resulting in Zenkais of quite a different level.

So how do you explain Vegeta got 24,000 from Earth and 30,000 from Zarbon ? If Zarbon didnt get him to recovery he would die for sure,,Vegeta close to unlocking ssj ? There is no power level that neads to be achived for transformation,,,

[CaBrPi]

There is no power level that neads to be achived for transformation,,,

Right, because Goku went Super Saiyan the first time Kuririn died.

It's pretty obvious that there's a power requirement, or else Goku wouldn't have had to "train" Gohan to go Super Saiyan, and Vegeta wouldn't have had to do any training to go Super Saiyan, either.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

There is no power level that neads to be achived for transformation,,,

Daizenshuu (right?) disagrees with you.

[Piccolo Daimao]

The 18,000 to 24,000 and 24,000 to 30,000 cases weren't really near-death situation Zenkais, but rather great injury ones. Later we see Dende's healing and Sensu resulting in Zenkais of quite a different level.

They were near-death situation Zenkais, because there's no such thing as "great injury" Zenkais. Vegeta explicitly stated that Saiyans become stronger after recovering from near-death. Whether or not Vegeta "looked" as if he was close to death after his battle with Recoom is entirely subjective, and while I'd be inclined to agree with you if you say that Vegeta didn't look like anything even remotely close to near-death, in this case, the story overrides visual evidence.

Unless, for whatever reason, you want to deny Vegeta's exposition, designed to tell us, the readers, what's going on, and assume that he, the Prince of the Saiyans, somehow doesn't know that you can't only get a Zenkai from near-death situations. But nothing suggests that, and "visual evidence" in this case is, once again, very subjective and can't be used to prove that it contradicts Vegeta's statements.

[Super Vegetto]

There is no power level that neads to be achived for transformation,,,

Daizenshuu (right?) disagrees with you.

Can you explain why Daizenshuu disagrees ?

[Super Vegetto]

One more question..power levels from daizenshuu were relised after "Frieza died" and before Androids or ? Only that would make sence since lets say if we ignore Vegeta and his sky rocketing zenkai that rivaled Freeza's first form this is how i would put things,,,Frieza in final form 50% should be 6,000,000 since only that would make sence to make other power levels after Frieza saga,,after its stated Frieza in final form 50% is 60,000,000 its like way to much and they yust whanted to finish the manga...but who knows maybe Frieza could power up to 50% in his base(first)form since his first second and third form proved realy weak but only good because every injury was removed,,,so that would only make sence...

[Saiga]

I never really believed the argument that Goku wasn't using his full power as a Super Saiyan against Yakon, because the panel where he powers up to make Yakon explode looks exactly like his SS2 form. If he wasn't even close to full power against Yakon before (If Kiri are linear and he was meant to be close to or stronger than Yakon's 800 in his base form, then he must be only using a fraction of his Super Saiyan power when Yakon absorbs it. If that's the case, why would he go Super Saiyan 2 when he can emit so much more energy as a Super Saiyan?

[Super Vegetto]

I never really believed the argument that Goku wasn't using his full power as a Super Saiyan against Yakon, because the panel where he powers up to make Yakon explode looks exactly like his SS2 form. If he wasn't even close to full power against Yakon before (If Kiri are linear and he was meant to be close to or stronger than Yakon's 800 in his base form, then he must be only using a fraction of his Super Saiyan power when Yakon absorbs it. If that's the case, why would he go Super Saiyan 2 when he can emit so much more energy as a Super Saiyan?

I see what you mean,,if he had so much energy as ssj1 why didnt he go full power and not ssj2 burst in that scene,,,well something like that will never be explained yust like kiris,,,and who knows what did they though when they made Frieza on 60,000,000 in yust 50% power when 1 mill was so much,,,

[Fox666]

I never really believed the argument that Goku wasn't using his full power as a Super Saiyan against Yakon, because the panel where he powers up to make Yakon explode looks exactly like his SS2 form. If he wasn't even close to full power against Yakon before (If Kiri are linear and he was meant to be close to or stronger than Yakon's 800 in his base form, then he must be only using a fraction of his Super Saiyan power when Yakon absorbs it. If that's the case, why would he go Super Saiyan 2 when he can emit so much more energy as a Super Saiyan?

The simpliest explanation is that even his full power wouldn't be enough.

[hleV]

The 18,000 to 24,000 and 24,000 to 30,000 cases weren't really near-death situation Zenkais, but rather great injury ones. Later we see Dende's healing and Sensu resulting in Zenkais of quite a different level.

They were near-death situation Zenkais, because there's no such thing as "great injury" Zenkais. Vegeta explicitly stated that Saiyans become stronger after recovering from near-death. Whether or not Vegeta "looked" as if he was close to death after his battle with Recoom is entirely subjective, and while I'd be inclined to agree with you if you say that Vegeta didn't look like anything even remotely close to near-death, in this case, the story overrides visual evidence.

Unless, for whatever reason, you want to deny Vegeta's exposition, designed to tell us, the readers, what's going on, and assume that he, the Prince of the Saiyans, somehow doesn't know that you can't only get a Zenkai from near-death situations. But nothing suggests that, and "visual evidence" in this case is, once again, very subjective and can't be used to prove that it contradicts Vegeta's statements.

I doubt the healing machine would fix the hole in Vegeta's stomack (even if it did, my point still stands), which Dende did. So that was a more serious near-death situation, which possibly resulted in a greater Zenkai. It's just a theory, such as Saiyans receiving greater Zenkais because they were getting closer to SSJ.

I never really believed the argument that Goku wasn't using his full power as a Super Saiyan against Yakon, because the panel where he powers up to make Yakon explode looks exactly like his SS2 form. If he wasn't even close to full power against Yakon before (If Kiri are linear and he was meant to be close to or stronger than Yakon's 800 in his base form, then he must be only using a fraction of his Super Saiyan power when Yakon absorbs it. If that's the case, why would he go Super Saiyan 2 when he can emit so much more energy as a Super Saiyan?

Um... Yakon eats light energy, not power. SSJ Goku at full-power would not necessarily have emitted much more light. SSJ2, however, did.
Goku being at suppressed state at the time his power was captured by the Kiri device explains why Goku didn't seemingly increase his power 50 times and how Dabra was having a hard time against Gohan (who's weaker than Goku) even after being so confident he could take folks with 3,000 Kiri with ease.