Lord Beerus wrote:
- It has never ever been proven in any official source in the franchise that Gohan becoming "Ultimate/Mystic Gohan" in the manga resulted in him being locked out of any other transformation. It's pure fandom theory, that has passed around for so many years that it's now seen as an unofficial "fact".
- A character being as strong as the plot demands him/her to be has, is the sort the schtick that's been around for years in Dragon Ball. Why does Kami and Piccolo merging together result in them being much more powerful than a SSJ? Why are their cyborgs, which were built in a cave by one mad scientist who is never mentioned or foreshadowed, much more powerful than all of the cast? Why is Majin Boo on par with a SSJ3 by default when first appears?
- Roshi asks Gohan in ROF whether he has been keeping up with his training, and Gohan's response all but states that he hasn't. And him becoming weaker as a result of not training is not exactly an inconsistency since it has happened before, and in the manga no less.
- Master Roshi obviously trained after BOG. Again, characters becoming ridiculously stronger off-screen without much explanation has happened quite a few times before in Dragon Ball. And besides, Freeza army were pretty much scrubs by the time of ROF.
- I mean, anybody who can create their own transformations to properly manage their own power deserves to be called something like a prodigy, in my eyes. The only other character who did something was Goku. And he's a fighting genius and a prodigy by his own standards. And besides, Freeza's race are just freaks of nature. The fact they can create their own transformations and survive fatals, would indicate that their race are quite the anomalies.
- A gag scene, is still a gag scene. It's like when Chi Chi "gained" the kaioken after getting pissed off at Maron in a filler episode.
- Already answered this above.
- Piccolo's power increase is explained--he fused with Kami. This is also something foreshadowed previously in the series. Gero collected data of the fighters for years. Yeah, it's still bs, but they were the major villains foreshadowed by Trunks--the ones who killed everyone in the future and ruined his timeline. And Majin Buu, again, is the big baddie the most supreme gods of the universe feared. Shisami is just a mook. There is nothing specified about his gifts. Why is he so strong? Again, one line of dialogue could explain this and satisfy me, regardless of how stupid it is. But throw him in there, make me watch a Super Namekian struggle, and you better expect me to complain because it becomes less about Shisami's power and more about Piccolo's lack-thereof.
- Gohan has never lost his powers before due to lack of training. Contradicts what we've seen before. No mentions of his mystic powers at all either.
- It's still incredibly contrived and makes Frieza seem like an absolute moron for not training before. Also begs the question why he was so scared of the saiyans. I always believed he was driven by his fear of being conquered, which is why he desired immortality. This was powerful to me, and implied multiple times in that arc. But now I realize that would never be the case if he just applied himself to a fitness routine, so basically, he just wanted to live forever. There was nothing else to it...
- The Chi Chi moment was a gag scene. Vegeta's rage boost wasn't gag. Someone hurt his wife and he became enraged. Goku mocking him for that is a comedy scene.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:TheGmGoken wrote:
Which, of course, given this fanbase, led to people automatically assuming that "he can't go SS no more!"
TO BE FAIR. With the different dubs and translation. With everyone not reading manga. Even casual fans and people who only saw DB as a kid thinks Gohan can't go SSJ no moremore. Even the video games and what if portrays it this way. Can't really blame the fan base (hate when people say "This fan base". It's worse than the term IWC) for believing it.
Show me one single translation that said he could no longer become a Super Saiyan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQrK3UYlzr0
"All I have to do is become a Super Saiyan, and believe."
As mentioned, the games follow the logic that his ultimate form is above SSJ too. It makes no sense for that to be his ultimate form if he can still go SSJ...
Also, Wrath of the Dragon.
Doctor. wrote:
He specifically stated “You transform into that Super whatever-it-is a lot, right? You’ll be fine if you just get the gist of that, and throw in a kiai.”.
Again: it was never said he couldn't transform. Most people just assumed he couldn't because he never did. If anything, Battle of Gods serves as confirmation that he can transform AND use the ultimate state whenever he pleases. I know that he was SSJ originally but that doesn't matter anymore because it was fixed.
What does that even mean? The gist of that? What? I interpret that as meaning he's applying the same power up, but obtaining something different. Hence, it replaces the SSJ state. Would anyone argue that he can become SSJ if he didn't in these movies?
He had 139 in his "base" form. He could very well have like 200 on his buffed up form, the one he used to fight, not to mention he could have trained a bit in those twenty or so years and get close to 300 or 400. Is that such a stretch?
Saibaimen were simple tools. We don't know how often you can grow one nor how they compare to the strength of Freeza's soldiers. We don't know how strong Freeza's soldiers are at all. What we know is that they're massively weaker than 1,500 level beings and that's it. Their strength may very well vary. Again, you just assumed things. You assumed Freeza's army is stronger than Raditz on average and that, as such, Roshi has no chance of beating them. Again, Toriyama says the army is a shadow of its former self. They got beaten by sharks and falling cliffs, it's clear as day that they're not strong at all.
Maybe you're right. But it's just never explained. It forces us, the fans, to speculate. "Maybe Roshi did this and that." A line of dialogue saying he used a gravity chamber to perfect his max form would suffice. All of these troops can fly and shoot energy blasts, btw. This is something that required a master to accomplish in DB. So regardless of how weak they are compared to Krillin and Tien, that should not be the case for Roshi.
