Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

Well, okay, it's your opinion. I just think it's weird because we've never seen someone put up a fight like that with that kind of gap, and Super Buu did just about the same against Gotenks as Good Buu did against Kid Buu. Briefly holding his own but on the losing end, landing a throw counter, a headbutt, and a blast, recovering from his opponent's hits without all that much damage, but being blatantly overpowered and beaten down after the first few minutes, and almost killed before being saved in the nick of time.

Grand Kaioshin doesn't have to be that strong. He won his job in anlottery and certainly doesn't look like a fighter. We receive no hints on the power of any of the other Kaioshin besides South, but I like having all but South weaker than Dabura and SS2 Gohan so some of Kaioshin's comments at least make a little sense even when factoring in the possible retcon about South Kaioshin.

[dbzfan7]

Well, okay, it's your opinion. I just think it's weird because we've never seen someone put up a fight like that with that kind of gap, and Super Buu did just about the same against Gotenks as Good Buu did against Kid Buu. Briefly holding his own but on the losing end, landing a throw counter, a headbutt, and a blast, recovering from his opponent's hits without all that much damage, but being blatantly overpowered and beaten down after the first few minutes, and almost killed before being saved in the nick of time.

Grand Kaioshin doesn't have to be that strong. He won his job in anlottery and certainly doesn't look like a fighter. We receive no hints on the power of any of the other Kaioshin besides South, but I like having all but South weaker than Dabura and SS2 Gohan so some of Kaioshin's comments at least make a little sense even when factoring in the possible retcon about South Kaioshin.

Because he is the God Damn Fat Man . But seriously there is no point dwindling on this topic, it's just a difference of opinions.

I kinda like Dai Kaioshin being that strong. Also in Toriyama's logic the weak looking one's or the one's who don't look capable are actually super strong. Doesn't mean Dai Kaioshin is like that, but I personally like him there.

[RandomGuy96]

That logic seems to be inverted with the five Kaioshin though. East Kaioshin is short and scrawny and wimpy looking. He's the weakest. South Kaioshin is the tallest and burliest. He's the strongest.

The Grand Kaioshin just won a lottery, and since body type is all we have to go on for him, I have him weaker than any of the others bar East. Unless, that is, you go by the anime filler, where he's a monster for actually managing to briefly put up a fight against Buushin.

[dbzfan7]

That logic seems to be inverted with the five Kaioshin though. East Kaioshin is short and scrawny and wimpy looking. He's the weakest. South Kaioshin is the tallest and burliest. He's the strongest.

The Grand Kaioshin just won a lottery, and since body type is all we have to go on for him, I have him weaker than any of the others bar East. Unless, that is, you go by the anime filler, or where he's a monster for actually managing to briefly put up a fight against Buushin.

really good point. Guess Toriyama wanted to blow our minds by changing the formula.

I'm partly going by filler. IDKW I just for some reason like him being above the others except the Muscleshin.

Anyways I'm digging up the Kanzentai files to do everything prior.

[RandomGuy96]

If it's filler you're going by, he should probably be much higher, since he deflected Buushin's blast and actually damaged him with a mouth blast. But if it's just personal preference, then I suppose it doesn't matterl n your list it seems you still have him weaker than Dabura and SS2 Gohan, like I do, so...

Any particular reason South Kaioshin is 30,000,000,000, 76% of Kid Buu? Are you going by the anime filler for that fight as well? Or is that part of a formula for something? Did you have another 'scene' of his and Buu's fight in mind?

On another note I think West and North Kaioshin should be stronger. East was considered incredibly weak for a Kaioshin, and you have him in distant rival range here.

[Kamiccolo9]

Do we know that East Kaioshin is that much weaker than North and West? He's obviously the weakest, but what says that he's a lot weaker?

[TheMightyOzaru]

Umm no... Buu only had an angry face before he realized how powerful, or a lack there of, Good Buu was. Notice that Pure Buu starts to laugh off Good Buu's attacks after he realizes how weak he truly is. I don't think Pure Buu multifolds above Good Buu, but he is certainly a good deal stronger.

[dbzfan7]

If it's filler you're going by, he should probably be much higher, since he deflected Buushin's blast and actually damaged him with a mouth blast. But if it's just personal preference, then I suppose it doesn't matterl n your list it seems you still have him weaker than Dabura and SS2 Gohan, like I do, so...

Any particular reason South Kaioshin is 30,000,000,000, 76% of Kid Buu? Are you going by the anime filler for that fight as well? Or is that part of a formula for something? Did you have another 'scene' of his and Buu's fight in mind?

On another note I think West and North Kaioshin should be stronger. East was considered incredibly weak for a Kaioshin, and you have him in distant rival range here.

I'm going by preference honestly. And I think he would still be below SSJ2 level.

Mixed opinions on the anime fight and the Somehow absorbed quote. But otherwise it's just preference for a mostly wild card character.

I only remember East Kaioshin just saying he was the weakest. I don't remember it being stated he was incredibly weak.

[RandomGuy96]

If it's filler you're going by, he should probably be much higher, since he deflected Buushin's blast and actually damaged him with a mouth blast. But if it's just personal preference, then I suppose it doesn't matterl n your list it seems you still have him weaker than Dabura and SS2 Gohan, like I do, so...

Any particular reason South Kaioshin is 30,000,000,000, 76% of Kid Buu? Are you going by the anime filler for that fight as well? Or is that part of a formula for something? Did you have another 'scene' of his and Buu's fight in mind?

On another note I think West and North Kaioshin should be stronger. East was considered incredibly weak for a Kaioshin, and you have him in distant rival range here.

I'm going by preference honestly. And I think he would still be below SSJ2 level.

Mixed opinions on the anime fight and the Somehow absorbed quote. But otherwise it's just preference for a mostly wild card character.

I only remember East Kaioshin just saying he was the weakest. I don't remember it being stated he was incredibly weak.

Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P6.7
Context: after Elder Kaioshin explains about the Potara
Kaioshin: “I-I didn’t know about them…”
Elder Kaioshin: “Young people these days really are hopeless…That’s why you’re so weak, despite being a Kaioshin."

Pretty much implies that all other Kaioshin make East look like trash.

Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P11.2-4
Context: right after Kaioshin and Kibito merge
Kaioshin: “Oooh! Am-amazing! This is amazing power! Hahaah! [ ] Goku! I can fight too like this! I’ll go with you!”
Elder Kaioshin: “Don’t get carried away! No matter how strong you’ve become, you were never anything special."

Umm no... Buu only had an angry face before he realized how powerful, or a lack there of, Good Buu was. Notice that Pure Buu starts to laugh off Good Buu's attacks after he realizes how weak he truly is. I don't think Pure Buu multifolds above Good Buu, but he is certainly a good deal stronger.

He doesn't laugh after Good Buu's attacks; he looks genuinely annoyed and hurt. He does smile twice, but that's not because the attack didn't hurt (see his face when the attack actually connects), but because he's happy to have regenerated his arm/grabbed his enemy. Like I said, compare his fight with Gotenks vs Super Buu. They're both pretty much the same, yet you said in another thread that Super Buu being only half of Gotenks just can't work, because otherwise Buu wouldn't have been able to put up any kind of fight at all. It's also pretty comparable to Goku vs Freeza, bar the Nova Strike move that Good Buu didn't have. Kid Buu only started looking playful after he had basically already beaten Good Buu in the fight we saw before the Dragon Ball cut and the off-screen fight during the cut (which I assume went more or less how the on-screen one went, with Good Buu being able to put up a fight but with Kid Buu still comfortably in the lead). But before Fatso's power was stated to have fell, he was behind, but not incredibly so.

I do agree that he's a good deal weaker, but the difference you have on your list, with Kid Buu being only 40% of Kid Buu and weaker than Dai Kaioshin (how does that even work?) really can't work. He'd just tank his hits and kill him instantly if that were the case, or just crush him from the get go like Vegeta, and wouldn't look mad at all.

EDIT: Actually, double checking, Goku didn't complete outperform Good Buu. He did better, sure, but not by a lot (and his techniques at least helped him a bit, like his Kamehameha and Instant Transmission, both of which would have been useful to Good Buu). A a minute or two into the fight, Kid Buu starts screwing around and Goku admits he's being toyed with, isn't doing any lasting damage, and can't win. When he tries to actually regain his power to fight Buu again, he reverts to base. A big difference is, after Goku's power started falling (which it clearly did during the fight), he had Vegeta to bail him out, whereas after Buu's power started falling, he still had to remain and get beaten down. And in at least a few panels Kid Buu is clearly not taking Goku seriously.

I think Good Buu is often underestimated because of the later parts of the fight, where after his power has fallen the fight turns into a whooping. This makes people think he put up less of a fight than Super Buu did against Gotenks, or something. The only reason this didn't happen in similar fights like Goku vs Kid Buu, Goku vs Freeza, and Gotenks vs Super Buu is because those fights conveniently ended when it became clear that fighter A was kicking fighter B's ass, and fighter B's power has dropped significantly. We didn't see the beatdown phase of those fights because fighter B got bailed out at the last minute for various reasons.

Hmmm, now I'm thinking I should have Goku lower compared to Kid Buu...

[Kamiccolo9]

Ah, ok. Cool.

[Draken]

Well, okay, it's your opinion. I just think it's weird because we've never seen someone put up a fight like that with that kind of gap, and Super Buu did just about the same against Gotenks as Good Buu did against Kid Buu. Briefly holding his own but on the losing end, landing a throw counter, a headbutt, and a blast, recovering from his opponent's hits without all that much damage, but being blatantly overpowered and beaten down after the first few minutes, and almost killed before being saved in the nick of time.

Grand Kaioshin doesn't have to be that strong. He won his job in anlottery and certainly doesn't look like a fighter. We receive no hints on the power of any of the other Kaioshin besides South, but I like having all but South weaker than Dabura and SS2 Gohan so some of Kaioshin's comments at least make a little sense even when factoring in the possible retcon about South Kaioshin.

Well Fat Buu definitely doesn't look like a fighter and look at where he's at.

[RandomGuy96]

In Fat Buu's case, we actually saw him fight. Also notable is that Fat Buu is the weakest of the Buus.

In Grand Kaioshin's case, we just know that he was a Kaioshin that was fat. Based on that alone, and the fact that the burliest Kaioshin also happens to be the strongest, I think that he's weaker than West and North. Not like it really matters anyway. I'd have him below Dabura and SS2 Gohan even if he wasn't fat...

Oh, and dbzfan, if you're using filler logic for your Kaioshin levels, then I disagree with having South Kaioshin stronger than (manga) Good Buu. Even not counting regeneration, Good Buu tanked more hits than SK, who was down after 1-3, lasted longer, and got in one more hit and counter than South Kaisohin did. In terms of performance against Kid Buu, it looked pretty clear that it was:

Goku > Good Buu > South Kaioshin > Vegeta

[dbzfan7]

In Fat Buu's case, we actually saw him fight. Also notable is that Fat Buu is the weakest of the Buus.

In Grand Kaioshin's case, we just know that he was a Kaioshin that was fat. Based on that alone, and the fact that the burliest Kaioshin also happens to be the strongest, I think that he's weaker than West and North. Not like it really matters anyway. I'd have him below Dabura and SS2 Gohan even if he wasn't fat...

Oh, and dbzfan, if you're using filler logic for your Kaioshin levels, then I disagree with having South Kaioshin stronger than (manga) Good Buu. Even not counting regeneration, Good Buu tanked more hits than SK, who was down after 1-3, lasted longer, and got in one more hit and counter than South Kaisohin did. In terms of performance against Kid Buu, it looked pretty clear that it was:

Goku > Good Buu > South Kaioshin > Vegeta

Finally back after a power outage

Anyways I'm just using a mix of preferences and not just filler logic. Mr. Boo also has extreme stamina and durability that South Kaioshin doesn't have and it's why he can take more punishment. I'll make South Kaioshin and Mr. Boo closer though and raise the other Kaioshins. I still think South Kaioshin has more raw power, but that's it.

Anyways, next up is the Dragon Ball list. I have yet to decide if I will ever tackle the movies or filler.

[Mjb1985]

I know most people don't like it but I'm ok with all of the Kaioshins being weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan. Somewhere along the line Kaioshins forgot their true power ( Potara fusion ). I don't think a Kaioshin who has not fused with another has to be all that strong.

And I kind of like the idea of all of the Kaioshins having to gang up on the King of the Demon Realm to get the win. But that's just how I feel about it.

[Kaboom]

The power Boo receives or loses by absorbing Kaioshin could be a real wild card, I think. If a particularly kind and pure-hearted Kaioshin subtracted more power from Boo than he added, then perhaps a particularly bold and ferocious Kaioshin would add more power than he possesses on his own.

[Mjb1985]

Yes I agree with that. I don't think Dai Kaioshin adds any power at all. In Fat Buu, Dai Kaioshin not only completely suppresses the power South Kaioshin added to Kid Buu, he also suppresses Kid Buu's power. This is why I view him as the dominant being in Fat Buu. His influence was on a massive scale. And realistically Fat Buu was never evil. He was portrayed as such, but the instant he realized that he was actually being bad, he stopped immediately. I think Kid Buu's influence showed while Fat Buu was angry and besides that, he was a benevolent being that had no clue that killing people was an atrocious act as crazy as that may seem.

[RandomGuy96]

As I've said, I have Good Buu = (South Kaioshin + Grand Kaioshin), and (South Kaioshin + Kid Buu) x 2.5 = Buff Buu. It works with everything else and lets me fit with the anime filler to boot. I don't think that South Kaioshin should be weaker than Gohan, otherwise it makes no sense that Buu decided to absorb him and not the other two, and it also makes no sense that Kibitoshin bothered to mention he was the strongest if that didn't matter a bit. There must be SOME reason that Buu decided that the strongest Kaioshin was worthy of absorption while the last two weaker ones weren't...

I don't have a formula for the Grand Kaioshin absorption though, mostly because the Daizenshuu said that Grand Kaioshin weakened Buu with his "gentle heart" without mentioning his ki. But also because he didn't really weaken Buu, he just sealed his power in a nicer package. Buu's power was still there, he just didn't use it unless he got mad.

[Draken]

I know most people don't like it but I'm ok with all of the Kaioshins being weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan. Somewhere along the line Kaioshins forgot their true power ( Potara fusion ). I don't think a Kaioshin who has not fused with another has to be all that strong.

And I kind of like the idea of all of the Kaioshins having to gang up on the King of the Demon Realm to get the win. But that's just how I feel about it.

Why not the baddies of the Demon Realm have to gang up to defeat a Kaioshin? God is powerful and the fallen angels army up to try to take Heaven. (Not that I' religious, but the story still works).

[Kamiccolo9]

As I've said, I have Good Buu = (South Kaioshin + Grand Kaioshin), and (South Kaioshin + Kid Buu) x 2.5 = Buff Buu. It works with everything else and lets me fit with the anime filler to boot. I don't think that South Kaioshin should be weaker than Gohan, otherwise it makes no sense that Buu decided to absorb him and not the other two, and it also makes no sense that Kibitoshin bothered to mention he was the strongest if that didn't matter a bit. There must be SOME reason that Buu decided that the strongest Kaioshin was worthy of absorption while the last two weaker ones weren't...

I don't have a formula for the Grand Kaioshin absorption though, mostly because the Daizenshuu said that Grand Kaioshin weakened Buu with his "gentle heart" without mentioning his ki. But also because he didn't really weaken Buu, he just sealed his power in a nicer package. Buu's power was still there, he just didn't use it unless he got mad.

While I agree with you, to be fair, does Buu really have to have a reason to absorb South Kaioshin? This is the same Buu that blew up the Earth just for lolz, danced and slept during the fight with Goku, and, in the anime, kept blowing himself and other planets up for fun. Would it really be that out of character for Buu to decide to absorb South Kaioshin just because the idea occurred to him?

[RandomGuy96]

Maybe, but what I'm saying is, even for a creature as simple as Buu, there has to be some kind of reasoning. He blew up the planet because it was fun. It's also fun to kill people. So he killed the two Kaioshin. However, integrating someone into his being is different than just outright killing them. That he chose to do that only with this Kaioshin, rather than the last two, must mean that SOMETHING was different about this one. Why did the idea pop into his head to absorb him? Because Kibitoshin mentions that he's the strongest, I think it was implying that he was strong enough to be in Buu's league, and someone on Toei apparently had the same interpretation.

There's also the matter of WHERE Good Buu's SS3-tier power came from. The only sources are Grand Kaioshin and South Kaioshin, since Pure Buu is... pure.