The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[dragonball0900]

1. I agree Tien may of been around Goku's strength when he fought King Piccolo, but that still doesn't mean he has the same raw power as King Piccolo had. Even Goku couldn't bust cities like King Piccolo did. Or at least if he could it was never shown. Yajirobe even said it was amazing Goku could beat a guy who can destroy a city.
And with the watching fight thing, that really shouldn't be used to demonstrate strength because Toriyama is not even be thinking of things like that. He doesn't try and think who should be able to see and who shouldn't based on prior events, unless it is really obvious.

2. That was just a throwaway line like I said. Just like Supreme Kai's line about Pui Pui and Yakkon. Imo neither one of them are stornger than Frieza, especially Pui Pui. And then you have the line from Roshi that implies he thinks Tao is stronger than Chappa, and Tao has better feats. I'm also 99% sure Toriyama would have Tao win in a fight.

1. Just because he had the speed, it doesn't mean he can't have the strenght too. Only special cases were shown where speed is different from strenght, such as transformations like the USSJ, and Burter because that's his special ability. Others don't have the same effect, even Vegeta said to Cui, the faster someone is the stronger he is. And if Tien did have the effect, if we follow your logic then the speed would be so far above his strenght, and I highly doubt that's the case since Tien clearly wanted to get stronger, he surely had to train to get both stronger and faster.
Toriyama did think of the abilities of watching the fights at first. Through the DB manga, you can see perfectly how accurate it is when someone watches a fight. Yamcha and Krillin could see Weighted Goku's movements, yet Chi Chi couldn't. See the difference between that and in Super? It's more consistent during the earlier parts.

2. But as I said with the differencies, Supreme Kai probably didn't even know Pui Pui's strenght, and didn't know if the saiyans can keep up with him. In this case however, Roshi and Yamcha clearly saw Goku defeating Akkuman so easily, and making a good battle against Gohan, and they also know about both Chappa's and Akkuman's reputation and feats in the tournaments, and had full concern about Goku battling with Chappa.

[dragon boss z]

1. Just because he had the speed, it doesn't mean he can't have the strenght too. Only special cases were shown where speed is different from strenght, such as transformations like the USSJ, and Burter because that's his special ability. Others don't have the same effect, even Vegeta said to Cui, the faster someone is the stronger he is. And if Tien did have the effect, if we follow your logic then the speed would be so far above his strenght, and I highly doubt that's the case since Tien clearly wanted to get stronger, he surely had to train to get both stronger and faster.
Toriyama did think of the abilities of watching the fights at first. Through the DB manga, you can see perfectly how accurate it is when someone watches a fight. Yamcha and Krillin could see Weighted Goku's movements, yet Chi Chi couldn't. See the difference between that and in Super? It's more consistent during the earlier parts.

2. But as I said with the differencies, Supreme Kai probably didn't even know Pui Pui's strenght, and didn't know if the saiyans can keep up with him. In this case however, Roshi and Yamcha clearly saw Goku defeating Akkuman so easily, and making a good battle against Gohan, and they also know about both Chappa's and Akkuman's reputation and feats in the tournaments, and had full concern about Goku battling with Chappa.

1. Yes, if you get stronger your speed and strength goes up. But if you train speed your speed will go up more than your strength. And it isn't just special cases like Burter.







Goku was faster than Ginyu even though his power level was less and he wasn't strong enough to get out of Ginyu's grasp without Kiaoken proving Ginyu is stronger physically.



2. They were just going off of reputation, and Tao's reputation is above Chappa's. There is really no point in even arguing for Chappa. It is pretty clear Tao is far above him. He is Roshi level.
Budokai contestants<top level contestants<Chappa<=>Akuman<Tao, Goah, Roshi and Crane

[mcdjbeatz]

1. Kaioken x20 Tiencha (Buu Saga) vs Perfect Cell
2. Super Saiyan Bardock vs Piccolo (fused with Nail)
3. Current Gohan vs Magetta
Bonus: Giant Snake that fought Goten and Trunks vs Freeza's Army from the Namek Saga

1. Metamoran Fusion yields an incredible power boost, Goten and Trunks were about as strong as 100% Frieza on Namek and yielded a fusion that was even more powerful than SSJ3 Goku, on top of a kaioken x20 (which I believe Tiencha could easily hold) Tiencha stomps
2. Bardock was 10,000 in Bardock, Father of Goku but I don't believe he got much stronger in Episode of Bardock, he did some training and possibly got a zenkai but I don't think he got strong enough to where he could beat Piccolo with his weights off as a super saiyan, Piccolo wins
3. SSJ Gohan was on par with SSJ Goku who was stronger than SSJ Vegeta at the U6 vs U7 Tournament, Vegeta was able to overpower Magetta after he insulted him but that was only pushing Magetta out of the ring and not defeating him. I don't think Gohan could defeat Magetta unless he insults him which I don't think Gohan would do considering his personality, he might be able to beat Magetta with a rage boost but that's it
Bonus: The snake wasn't particularly powerful, Goten and Trunks had to hold back because of the citizens in the hot spring nearby and because of the bottle, the snake might be able to defeat a few of Frieza's weaker soldiers but there is no way that it could defeat Cui, Zarbon, Dodoria or the Ginyu Force

[dragonball0900]

1. Yes, if you get stronger your speed and strength goes up. But if you train speed your speed will go up more than your strength. And it isn't just special cases like Burter.

Goku was faster than Ginyu even though his power level was less and he wasn't strong enough to get out of Ginyu's grasp without Kiaoken proving Ginyu is stronger physically.

2. They were just going off of reputation, and Tao's reputation is above Chappa's. There is really no point in even arguing for Chappa. It is pretty clear Tao is far above him. He is Roshi level.
Budokai contestants<top level contestants<Chappa<=>Akuman<Tao, Goah, Roshi and Crane

1. Well, the first 2 points I don't think are convincent since Android 17 and Piccolo's speed couldn't be that far in gap with their strenght.

The next point, however, it's where hits me. I have to be honest, every time I come to that part by either reading the manga or watching the anime, I was always like: how is Goku faster than Ginyu?
However, here it's directly stated that Goku is faster than Ginyu. But in Tien's case, it's not stated if his strenght was that much below. He manages to at least battle on par with Weighted Goku, before using his full speed. I still believe Tien at that point is stronger than King Piccolo though, since nothing is stated that it was the other way round. Tien could've easily worked both his speed and strenght, considering his personality, I doubt he would make his strenght that apart from his speed, since he did want to get stronger.


2. Saying that Chappa and Akkuman are around the same it's ridiculous since they also knew about Akkuman's reputation and feats. There's zero evidence for Chappa to be equal to Akkuman, specially since Roshi and the others saw Goku defeating Akkuman so easily, and were more worried that a more improved Goku from 3 years later would loose to Chappa. They were all completely amazed too about how Goku implied he was holding back a lot against him, and Roshi said he would be in trouble. It wouldn't make sense at all if Toriyama wanted to show Goku's improvement by incluiding a weaker character around Akkuman's strenght if we already know who's going to win. It's easily known that Chappa is much stronger than Akkuman.

About Tao, Roshi knew he was the world's number 1 assassin, probably he didn't know his strenght, since all other statements from the manga I mentioned say Chappa is stronger. That part of Roshi getting worried does seem contradictory to me.

1. Metamoran Fusion yields an incredible power boost, Goten and Trunks were about as strong as 100% Frieza on Namek and yielded a fusion that was even more powerful than SSJ3 Goku, on top of a kaioken x20 (which I believe Tiencha could easily hold) Tiencha stomps.

I don't think Goten and Trunks were as strong as Frieza, since they were already much stronger than Android 18 (read the manga version, not anime, of the fight and you'll see why), and after training in the ROSAT they got much stronger, not as strong as Piccolo though.

[DanielSSJ]

1. Kaioken x20 Tiencha (Buu Saga) vs Perfect Cell
2. Super Saiyan Bardock vs Piccolo (fused with Nail)
3. Current Gohan vs Magetta
Bonus: Giant Snake that fought Goten and Trunks vs Freeza's Army from the Namek Saga

- By my count, none of the Earthlings ever surpass Freeza's first form, so they'd need to get roughly ten-thousand times stronger to hop to compete with Perfect Cell. Regardless if they use Potara or the Fusion Dance, they won't get strong enough to fight off Cell, even with the Kaioken (which is probably the worst power up to try and match a regenerator anyways.)
- Bardock probably got a healing boost from surviving Freeza's death ball, but he also probably didn't get the same kind of insane power boost that Goku and Vegeta were getting by the end of the Freeza arc, and his power only doubled at most. With all that in mind, SS Bardock barely breaks the million mark at the very most, whereas Piccolo is closer to 1.5 million, given how 2nd Form Freeza powered up twice.
- I guess I'd say Magetta...? Given how Vegeta struggled against the guy, I doubt Gohan would be able to beat him without insulting him, and Gohan is too nice for that.

[dragon boss z]

1. Well, the first 2 points I don't think are convincent since Android 17 and Piccolo's speed couldn't be that far in gap with their strenght.

The next point, however, it's where hits me. I have to be honest, every time I come to that part by either reading the manga or watching the anime, I was always like: how is Goku faster than Ginyu?
However, here it's directly stated that Goku is faster than Ginyu. But in Tien's case, it's not stated if his strenght was that much below. He manages to at least battle on par with Weighted Goku, before using his full speed. I still believe Tien at that point is stronger than King Piccolo though, since nothing is stated that it was the other way round. Tien could've easily worked both his speed and strenght, considering his personality, I doubt he would make his strenght that apart from his speed, since he did want to get stronger.


2. Saying that Chappa and Akkuman are around the same it's ridiculous since they also knew about Akkuman's reputation and feats. There's zero evidence for Chappa to be equal to Akkuman, specially since Roshi and the others saw Goku defeating Akkuman so easily, and were more worried that a more improved Goku from 3 years later would loose to Chappa. They were all completely amazed too about how Goku implied he was holding back a lot against him, and Roshi said he would be in trouble. It wouldn't make sense at all if Toriyama wanted to show Goku's improvement by incluiding a weaker character around Akkuman's strenght if we already know who's going to win. It's easily known that Chappa is much stronger than Akkuman.

About Tao, Roshi knew he was the world's number 1 assassin, probably he didn't know his strenght, since all other statements from the manga I mentioned say Chappa is stronger. That part of Roshi getting worried does seem contradictory to me.

1. Yes Tien could of been above King Piccolo in strength. It's one of those things where he may or may not be, but since there is no way to know for sure either way, I'll just go with the daizenshuu.

2. You are contradicting yourself. You say Roshi just knows Tao is the number 1 assassin but doesn't know his strength, but you could say the same for Chappa. All he knew was his reputation. And I would argue Roshi knew Tao's strength since he is the younger brother of his hold friend/rival. Also 22nd Krillin would of most likely beat Chappa, since he put up a much better fight. And 22nd Krillin would still lose to Tao.

[mcdjbeatz]

1. Metamoran Fusion yields an incredible power boost, Goten and Trunks were about as strong as 100% Frieza on Namek and yielded a fusion that was even more powerful than SSJ3 Goku, on top of a kaioken x20 (which I believe Tiencha could easily hold) Tiencha stomps.

I don't think Goten and Trunks were as strong as Frieza, since they were already much stronger than Android 18 (read the manga version, not anime, of the fight and you'll see why), and after training in the ROSAT they got much stronger, not as strong as Piccolo though.

I forgot to mention that I was talking about their bases if that makes any difference

[Gog]

1. Kaioken x20 Tiencha (Buu Saga) vs Perfect Cell
2. Super Saiyan Bardock vs Piccolo (fused with Nail)
3. Current Gohan vs Magetta
Bonus: Giant Snake that fought Goten and Trunks vs Freeza's Army from the Namek Saga

Tiencha gets ripped in half.
Depends on which Bardock
I really don't know here.
Snake wins

[TheUltimateNinja]

1. Kaioken x20 Tiencha (Buu Saga) vs Perfect Cell
2. Super Saiyan Bardock vs Piccolo (fused with Nail)
3. Current Gohan vs Magetta
Bonus: Giant Snake that fought Goten and Trunks vs Freeza's Army from the Namek Saga

1. Tiencha can't even beat Frieza, let alone Cell
2. Piccolo should take it, SSJ Bardock probably doesn't even break a million.
3. Super's powerscaling is way too fucked to get a clear answer to this.

1. Kaioken x20 Tiencha (Buu Saga) vs Perfect Cell

1. Metamoran Fusion yields an incredible power boost, Goten and Trunks were about as strong as 100% Frieza on Namek and yielded a fusion that was even more powerful than SSJ3 Goku, on top of a kaioken x20 (which I believe Tiencha could easily hold) Tiencha stomps

Metamoran fusion isn't all that good, Goten and Trunks were already about as strong as Gohan once they completed their training in the RoSAT, yet SSJ Gotenks is only comparable to Fat Buu so it seems Metamoran fusion only produces a multiplier of about 2.5x.

[dragonball0900]

2. You are contradicting yourself. You say Roshi just knows Tao is the number 1 assassin but doesn't know his strength, but you could say the same for Chappa. All he knew was his reputation. And I would argue Roshi knew Tao's strength since he is the younger brother of his hold friend/rival. Also 22nd Krillin would of most likely beat Chappa, since he put up a much better fight. And 22nd Krillin would still lose to Tao.

There's no confirmation at all that 22nd Krillin would lose to Tao, in fact I have that version of Krillin much stronger than Tao.

Also, re-reading again this pages of the manga, I don't see that much of a difference between both reputations of Chappa and Tao. Roshi was surprised on both cases, but Tao's was only more significant because he was the younger brother of Tsuru. Also Chappa has the feats of winning a tournament without being touched. There could be easily fighters around Giran or Nam's strenght who were able to touch 21st Budokai Goku. And considering that Akkuman << Chappa is stated, as well as all the various evidencies I mentioned that implied Chappa to be stronger than Goku (post Korin), it's easy to think that Chappa is stronger than Tao.

Akkuman < Tao < Post Korin Goku < Chappa < 22nd Chiaotzu < 22nd Yamcha <= 22nd Krillin < Tsuru < 22nd Roshi < 22nd Tien = 22nd Goku

1. Kaioken x20 Tiencha (Buu Saga) vs Perfect Cell
2. Super Saiyan Bardock vs Piccolo (fused with Nail)
3. Current Gohan vs Magetta
Bonus: Giant Snake that fought Goten and Trunks vs Freeza's Army from the Namek Saga

1. Tiencha would lose to Perfect Cell.
2. Piccolo wins since he's over one million, while Bardock would still be on the high hundred thousands.
3. I really don't know this answer.

[Zamasu55]

1. Kaioken x20 Tiencha (Buu Saga) vs Perfect Cell
2. Super Saiyan Bardock vs Piccolo (fused with Nail)
3. Current Gohan vs Magetta
Bonus: Giant Snake that fought Goten and Trunks vs Freeza's Army from the Namek Saga

1. No clue.
2. If we go with numbers:
Ssj Bardock: 500,000
Piccolo (fused with Nail): 1,200,000
Piccolo one-shots.
3. In episode 75, Ssj Gohan was even with Ssj Goku, who was stronger than the Vegeta that fought Magetta. Gohan wins.

[dragon boss z]

There's no confirmation at all that 22nd Krillin would lose to Tao, in fact I have that version of Krillin much stronger than Tao.

Also, re-reading again this pages of the manga, I don't see that much of a difference between both reputations of Chappa and Tao. Roshi was surprised on both cases, but Tao's was only more significant because he was the younger brother of Tsuru. Also Chappa has the feats of winning a tournament without being touched. There could be easily fighters around Giran or Nam's strenght who were able to touch 21st Budokai Goku. And considering that Akkuman << Chappa is stated, as well as all the various evidencies I mentioned that implied Chappa to be stronger than Goku (post Korin), it's easy to think that Chappa is stronger than Tao.

Akkuman < Tao < Post Korin Goku < Chappa < 22nd Chiaotzu < 22nd Yamcha <= 22nd Krillin < Tsuru < 22nd Roshi < 22nd Tien = 22nd Goku

I'm pretty sure Tien said that Yamcha/Krillin level people couldn't beat Tao, or at least it was implied.

And Roshi wasn't surprised Goku beat Chappa. He was just surprised he beat him so easily. Roshi was actually surprised that Goku beat Tao. There is no reason to think Chappa is stronger. That is some really convoluted power scaling.

And I just went back and read the chapter. Roshi was never surprised Goku beat Chappa at all. The only thing he was surprised about was how Goku was able to slow himself down with just his breath.

Akkuman<=>Chappa<22nd Chiaotzu<22nd Yamcha<22nd Krillin<Tao<Tsuru<post Korin Goku<22nd Roshi (suppressed)<22nd Tien=22nd Goku

[dragon boss z]

1. Kaioken x20 Tiencha (Buu Saga) vs Perfect Cell
2. Super Saiyan Bardock vs Piccolo (fused with Nail)
3. Current Gohan vs Magetta
Bonus: Giant Snake that fought Goten and Trunks vs Freeza's Army from the Namek Saga

Tiencha gets ripped in half.
Depends on which Bardock
I really don't know here.
Snake wins

Do you just think the Frieza soldiers are weak? They thought they could beat fighters with power levels of 1,000. King Piccolo with a power level in the hundreds would casually kill that snake.

[Gog]

1. Kaioken x20 Tiencha (Buu Saga) vs Perfect Cell
2. Super Saiyan Bardock vs Piccolo (fused with Nail)
3. Current Gohan vs Magetta
Bonus: Giant Snake that fought Goten and Trunks vs Freeza's Army from the Namek Saga

Tiencha gets ripped in half.
Depends on which Bardock
I really don't know here.
Snake wins

Do you just think the Frieza soldiers are weak? They thought they could beat fighters with power levels of 1,000. King Piccolo with a power level in the hundreds would casually kill that snake.

The Giant Snake fought against Goten and Trunks, it effortlessly lol stomps the entirety of Freeza's army.

[dragonball0900]

I'm pretty sure Tien said that Yamcha/Krillin level people couldn't beat Tao, or at least it was implied.
And Roshi wasn't surprised Goku beat Chappa. He was just surprised he beat him so easily. Roshi was actually surprised that Goku beat Tao. There is no reason to think Chappa is stronger. That is some really convoluted power scaling.

And I just went back and read the chapter. Roshi was never surprised Goku beat Chappa at all. The only thing he was surprised about was how Goku was able to slow himself down with just his breath.

Akkuman<=>Chappa<22nd Chiaotzu<22nd Yamcha<22nd Krillin<Tao<Tsuru<post Korin Goku<22nd Roshi (suppressed)<22nd Tien=22nd Goku

Roshi clearly said something like: "let's see how much Goku has improved in these 3 years", that was right before Goku's match with Chappa. Another thing to mention is that they also thought Goku was too fast while seeing him defeating Chappa. If Chappa was around Akkuman's strenght, not even Roshi would say Goku was too fast. Chappa was put in there to show how much Goku has improved.

I don't think Krillin and Yamcha were below Tao. Simply because when Krillin fought so well against a much stronger Goku. I know he was holding back, but still Goku was in a great illusion of fighting, like saying that his fight with Krillin was so great that he thought Krillin was stronger than any previous opponent Goku fought. If Tao was stronger than Krillin, then Goku wouldn't be that excited since he already defeated him, and after 3 years of training he would still be able to defeat him a lot easily and wouldn't make any comments regarding how great his fight is. That would really put Tao below Krillin and Yamcha. Tien never really said Krillin and Yamcha were below Tao.

[dragon boss z]

Tiencha gets ripped in half.
Depends on which Bardock
I really don't know here.
Snake wins

Do you just think the Frieza soldiers are weak? They thought they could beat fighters with power levels of 1,000. King Piccolo with a power level in the hundreds would casually kill that snake.

The Giant Snake fought against Goten and Trunks, it effortlessly lol stomps the entirety of Freeza's army.

That is a low showing for Goten and Trunks, not a high showing for the snake. That snake would be no stronger than any snake that size. Though I guess you could argue since Frieza soldiers were eaten by a giant fish in RoF they are just really weak, but that fish was also like 1000 times bigger than that snake.

[dragon boss z]

Roshi clearly said something like: "let's see how much Goku has improved in these 3 years", that was right before Goku's match with Chappa. Another thing to mention is that they also thought Goku was too fast while seeing him defeating Chappa. If Chappa was around Akkuman's strenght, not even Roshi would say Goku was too fast. Chappa was put in there to show how much Goku has improved.

I don't think Krillin and Yamcha were below Tao. Simply because when Krillin fought so well against a much stronger Goku. I know he was holding back, but still Goku was in a great illusion of fighting, like saying that his fight with Krillin was so great that he thought Krillin was stronger than any previous opponent Goku fought. If Tao was stronger than Krillin, then Goku wouldn't be that excited since he already defeated him, and after 3 years of training he would still be able to defeat him a lot easily and wouldn't make any comments regarding how great his fight is. That would really put Tao below Krillin and Yamcha. Tien never really said Krillin and Yamcha were below Tao.

Seeing how someone improved doesn't equal might lose or barely being able to win. He just thought Chappa was enough of an opponent where Goku might have to do more than a warm up, but he wasn't.
I don't think Rroshi said Goku was too fast.

Goku's tournament strength and fighting in real life strength are different.

[dragonball0900]

Seeing how someone improved doesn't equal might lose or barely being able to win. He just thought Chappa was enough of an opponent where Goku might have to do more than a warm up, but he wasn't.
I don't think Rroshi said Goku was too fast.

Goku's tournament strength and fighting in real life strength are different.

There is a panel showing Roshi and Yamcha saying how fast Goku was. Even when holding back, they still thought it was too fast. For Roshi to think that was fast, Goku should've been much faster than 3 years ago. Where he easily defeats Akkuman. It was said that Chappa's feats were bigger than Akkuman's too. It wouldn't just make sense for Toriyama to make them feeling concern if Goku's previous strenght was shown during the Baba arc. Toriyama obviously decided to put Chappa in there to show Goku's progress of improvement. Otherwise it would be pointless.

Even if Goku was in Tournament strenght, he still complimented Krillin. I really doubt he would compliment him if he was weaker than Tao Pai Pai, as well as the fact that Goku has improved a lot.

[dragon boss z]

There is a panel showing Roshi and Yamcha saying how fast Goku was. Even when holding back, they still thought it was too fast. For Roshi to think that was fast, Goku should've been much faster than 3 years ago. Where he easily defeats Akkuman. It was said that Chappa's feats were bigger than Akkuman's too. It wouldn't just make sense for Toriyama to make them feeling concern if Goku's previous strenght was shown during the Baba arc. Toriyama obviously decided to put Chappa in there to show Goku's progress of improvement. Otherwise it would be pointless.

Even if Goku was in Tournament strenght, he still complimented Krillin. I really doubt he would compliment him if he was weaker than Tao Pai Pai, as well as the fact that Goku has improved a lot.

Notice how they are saying Goku is fast, and not Chappa. That doesn't really help Chappa's case. I can see why you think Krillin could beat Tao, but at least he actually has some feats to back it up. Chappa's best feat is winning the budokai without being touched, which is something 21st Roshi would of casually done if Krillin and Goku weren't there.
And Chappa was there to make Goku look stronger, but Goku winning isn't what was supposed to make him so strong, it was how he won.

[dragonball0900]

Notice how they are saying Goku is fast, and not Chappa. That doesn't really help Chappa's case. I can see why you think Krillin could beat Tao, but at least he actually has some feats to back it up. Chappa's best feat is winning the budokai without being touched, which is something 21st Roshi would of casually done if Krillin and Goku weren't there.
And Chappa was there to make Goku look stronger, but Goku winning isn't what was supposed to make him so strong, it was how he won.

If Goku was fighting an Akkuman tier of fighter, they wouldn't be surprised at all. I mean, of course, your logic would work perfectly great, but only if Roshi and Yamcha hadn't saw Goku's strenght and speed in the Baba arc at all, but they did, they witnessed his strenght, they also even knew that Goku finished off the entire Red Ribbon HQ. If they knew that then obviously why would they be worried for him against a fighter like Chappa?