"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Lord Frieza]

God ki/powers were never stated to have anything to do with raw strength in the 1st place

Huh... are you saying god ki doesnt boost/amplify the user's strength? Because that's kind of the main purpose of ki in DragonBall, to boost power/strength beyond physical capabilities.

He's saying there's no direct correlation because there isn't. Dende, the Oracle Fish, all the various Kaio and Kaioshin all have God Ki and they're not as strong as Beerus because of it; Jiren, Freeza, Hit, #17, Broly, so on and so forth, don't have God Ki and they rival Goku and Vegeta. Obviously having God Ki is an advantage but it's a very poorly defined plot device.

Considering that how saiyan god ki and god forms work dose get altered from arc to arc, while I like the forms and power IF they did go with this idea it would get rid of a very poorly though out idea. Plus I don't think Goku and Vegeta would become weaker per say, but they would lose their SSG and SSGSS forms. Thats would put them in a pretty bad spot if they ever have to fight Frieza again and it would give them a real reason to do training other then "just to get stronger".

Losing a power up has been done befor, while it never interested me much, Bleach's main character lost one of his power up and had to work to become stronger again from what I hear and while not exactly the same, for a while Naruto trained to master sage mode so he didn't have to rely on the Nine Tails's power.

And while he could lose his god forms, Goku and Vegeta wouldn't lose their Ultra Instinct training. There's nothing saying they need god ki to us it and really those forms a pretty redundent with UI Mastered hanging over them. Although I do find it intreasting that SSG keeps getting stuff added to it after all this time, despite it never being relivent in terms of power.

[mute_proxy]

He's saying there's no direct correlation because there isn't. Dende, the Oracle Fish, all the various Kaio and Kaioshin all have God Ki and they're not as strong as Beerus because of it; Jiren, Freeza, Hit, #17, Broly, so on and so forth, don't have God Ki and they rival Goku and Vegeta. Obviously having God Ki is an advantage but it's a very poorly defined plot device.

It depends on how the ki is used, if at all, Dende and the others don't fight and don't utilize God ki for fighting, that's why they're not that strong, like comparing Krillin to regular civilians. And considering the non god ki users, they're different alien races that have different physical capabilities (not including upgraded human 17, and Broly is apparently an anomaly/mutation as said by King Vegeta), like how humans can't reach saiyan levels of power, Jiren's race might be stronger than saiyans. That's how I see it at least

The Kais are fighters, yet they are weaker than many mortals without God ki, so that argument doesn't really work. Jiren's race doesn't even seem to be combat oriented like the Saiyans are, and Jiren was explicitly potrayed as unique among his people.

The argument does work, because the Kai's arent a warrior race dedicating their life to fighting as the saiyans are. They are strong in their own right, but they are peaceful beings trying to preserve life. Jiren's race not seeming to be combat oriented doesn't diminish the potential that could be there.

Your point?

My point is, ki is what makes the transformations strong:

Akira Toriyama: "There are physical limits to the strength of the body itself, so in order to overcome that barrier, it’s necessary to increase your “ki”. Normally, the more you increase your ki, the harder it is to control, so ki control is also important."

[prince212]

No relation between god power and strength in the chapter , he used the god power to seal the magic of goat , nothing related to strength. It’s a technique to seal magic.
ANyways awesome chapter , that train scene is incredible well done I.m.o .
I like vegeta reading between lines , Merus confirmation as fast as hell and the whole mini story to defeat those interesting robbers .
This chapter looks longer than the usual being same pages , that means a lot , things going straight to the point .

[FortuneSSJ]

-Chapter 43-

This is actually turning out to be interesting.

Moro doesn't only have a more unique design than most characters Toriyama draws nowadays, but he seems also to have a interesting moveset. Props to Toyotaro!
That last page was fire.

I have no doubt at this point that Toei/Toyotaro should decide what the next story arcs should be from now on and ask Toriyama to help them out, instead of let Toriyama decide for himself. Enough of Tournaments. Enough of reviving old villains. I want new things. This is the way to go.

[zarmack]

It depends on how the ki is used, if at all, Dende and the others don't fight and don't utilize God ki for fighting, that's why they're not that strong, like comparing Krillin to regular civilians. And considering the non god ki users, they're different alien races that have different physical capabilities (not including upgraded human 17, and Broly is apparently an anomaly/mutation as said by King Vegeta), like how humans can't reach saiyan levels of power, Jiren's race might be stronger than saiyans. That's how I see it at least

The Kais are fighters, yet they are weaker than many mortals without God ki, so that argument doesn't really work. Jiren's race doesn't even seem to be combat oriented like the Saiyans are, and Jiren was explicitly potrayed as unique among his people.

The argument does work, because the Kai's arent a warrior race dedicating their life to fighting as the saiyans are. They are strong in their own right, but they are peaceful beings trying to preserve life. Jiren's race not seeming to be combat oriented doesn't diminish the potential that could be there.

Your point?

My point is, ki is what makes the transformations strong:

Akira Toriyama: "There are physical limits to the strength of the body itself, so in order to overcome that barrier, it’s necessary to increase your “ki”. Normally, the more you increase your ki, the harder it is to control, so ki control is also important."

1. The fact that the Kais do train and fight at all and use their God ki for battle does undermine your argument.

2. Again, nothing in series suggest that there is any strength advantage between God ki and normal ki, its just a baseless fan assumption. That Toriyama quote says nothing about God ki in particular, just ki in general.

[mute_proxy]

2. Again, nothing in series suggest that there is any strength advantage between God ki and normal ki, its just a baseless fan assumption. That Toriyama quote says nothing about God ki in particular, just ki in general.

Super Saiyan God doesn't use regular ki. It uses God ki, stated by Beerus/Whis and shown not to be sensed by non god ki users. Ki is being used for fighting in SSGod, the same way as before, but in this case it's God ki (that's where the Toriyama quote comes in). Super Saiyan God is miles stronger than SS3 which uses non god ki. Everything in the series suggests that there is strength advantage between God ki and normal ki, because a god ki based transformation is miles stronger than a non god ki based transformation.

[Shaddy]

Well, I just read that new chapter.

I was wrong about the Panelling. It's not as bad as it has been at some points, but I don't see any clear effort to improve on the layout from Toyotaro. If he's trying at all, it should be more noticable than this.

The actual chapter itself was pretty fun. We got some cool exposition on the Grand Kaioshin and the Galactic Patrol, and not immediately introducing everything about the villain and putting him right next to Goku is a sign of more care put toward the pacing. It also had an actual action setpiece rather than just standard fighting, which is rare for Dragon Ball in general, not just Super, so it's clear that Toyo is putting the work in to actually make something good here. In fact, it seems clear here that the reason the ToP sucked so hard wasn't rushing, or regular incompetence, but Toyotaro having no passion or care for making the story good in the first place. Which...is probably worse, but at least it shows when this arc is off to a much, much better start.

I think my biggest issue (other than the art) was how transparently Toyotaro wants us to think his OC Merus is super cool even though he isn't. Guy's got one of the ugliest supporting character designs this side of GT and not much of a personality (so far, at least) but most of the chapter is dedicated to how super-strong he is and how amazed Vegeta is at his power even though woah he was still holding back and bluh. It's so overdone and it doesn't have anything close to a unique spin here. Part of that could be that our only point of reference in the galactic patrol was a weakling like Jaco (with infinitely more character and a sleeker-yet-dorky design) so there's very little weight to Merus supposedly being "the best".

[BWri]

Was intrigued enough to read the latest manga chapter (Chapter 43) after skipping the last few ToP chapters. I have to say that I'm gladly not at all disappointed by this chapter. It was pretty good and kept my interest and intrigue throughout. Overall, this feels fresh and I'm looking forward to more of it.

Merus' power is an interesting plot point now. DB typically doesn't have plots based around why a character is so strong, but we are finally getting this which is basically what I wanted from characters like Jiren. The why helps flesh these characters out, especially new characters, and it appears that it'll play into Merus' role for this arc. I also like the "street level" Dragon Ball stuff so I enjoyed Merus dealing with the pasta-themed robbers. The character is really making an impression so I hope he is a major player in the arc.

Just one final point about explaining a character's power or making it a part of the plot: it can really help ground them to the world when you do it. My main disappointment with DB since Goten and Trunks is how little care is given to providing sufficient explanation for a character's strength and how that takes me out of the story every single time. So, great job to Toyotaro and Toriyama this month!

[PFM18]

Okay, so do we know why exactly he was able to escape? Nothing really changed recently that would trigger it right? And if Dai Kaioshin already used most of his god power to seal away his magic abilities, how would he be useful now? Did Moro get his powers back somehow and Dai Kaioshin would seal it away again? How could Dai Kaioshin even do it again if he already used up most of his God power?

I'm a bit confused and was hoping somebody could clarify things.

[BWri]

Those train bandits had a very GT design. I dig it.

Also, so is the plan to extract the Dai-Kaioshin from Buu, or find a way to utilize the power he had to seal away Moros magic?

And lastly, I doubt it'll happen, but what if the end is indicative of Moro contacting Goku and taking control of him, sort of like Babidi with Majin Vegeta? Then Vegeta will go and get Broly and they have to face off with a brainwashed Goku and Moro? Again, that won't happen, but would be interesting.

Definitely interested to see how this new arc plays out

I doubt anyone could take Goku, since Babidi couldn't, but if possible, I hope he takes Goku and Vegeta. I'd be interesting to see the others use some agency to try to defeat them or just to see Goku and Vegeta wreck their friends and former enemies. Would be a great way to get Broly involved in the main story.

[zarmack]

2. Again, nothing in series suggest that there is any strength advantage between God ki and normal ki, its just a baseless fan assumption. That Toriyama quote says nothing about God ki in particular, just ki in general.

Super Saiyan God doesn't use regular ki. It uses God ki, stated by Beerus/Whis and shown not to be sensed by non god ki users. Ki is being used for fighting in SSGod, the same way as before, but in this case it's God ki (that's where the Toriyama quote comes in). Super Saiyan God is miles stronger than SS3 which uses non god ki. Everything in the series suggests that there is strength advantage between God ki and normal ki, because a god ki based transformation is miles stronger than a non god ki based transformation.

And yet there are multiple fighters without God ki that fight at SSG+ levels, and multiple beings with God Ki that can't even beat Perfect Cell. So no, that right there shows that there's no inherent strength difference between God ki and normal ki.

[prince212]

In fact, it seems clear here that the reason the ToP sucked so hard wasn't rushing, or regular incompetence, but Toyotaro having no passion or care for making the story good in the first place. Which...is probably worse, but at least it shows when this arc is off to a much, much better start.

The story was already done in ToP arc , and wasn’t the best one in the first place . Hard to have passion in there , but still , I.m.o he found some gaps to fill with good stuff ....Top arc was made to show fast fights in a reduced scenario, limiting the possibilities, he milked the landscape .
This arc is giving us a different approach from previous arcs , looks cool so far and this series need this kind of things .

[Chuquita]

Read the chapter; that was fun. It does feel like filler, I won't lie, but it's good fresh filler. The character designs aren't my style, but I like the plot.

So, yeah. I'm mostly positive on this so far.

[TheOne]

I think Broly is going to become a big asset in this arc.

I can absolutely see Moro using his magic to seal off Goku and Vegetas ability to use Diety Ki seeing as how it’s a troublesome transformation. (I doubt that’ll happen since we still need UI to make an appearance).

If Moro seals up Diety Ki, they might need to look at alternative methods of powering up. Like using Oozaru form in base.

[AnimeNation101]

I think Broly is going to become a big asset in this arc.

I can absolutely see Moro using his magic to seal off Goku and Vegetas ability to use Diety Ki seeing as how it’s a troublesome transformation. (I doubt that’ll happen since we still need UI to make an appearance).

If Moro seals up Diety Ki, they might need to look at alternative methods of powering up. Like using Oozaru form in base.

What if he doesn’t seal if off but absorbes it instead? We see that he can at least take genki by force. What if he can do the same with God ki. Maybe in his 10,000,000 years of prison, he’s learned from getting his magic sealed by God ki and overtime understood God ki, how it works, and maybe how to absorb it.

This would mean Goku and Vegeta could only go SSJ2 and 3 (or give Vegeta SSJ3 already). And they prob would have to get Broly’s help. But that doesn’t seem like something Goku and Vegeta would do. This could very well lead to the resurfacing of Ultra Instinct since you dont really need God ki to tap into it.

Since only 28 planets have life, i hope Moro moves to another universe to absorb its energy which will allow for more exploration.

[FortuneSSJ]

I think my biggest issue (other than the art) was how transparently Toyotaro wants us to think his OC Merus is super cool even though he isn't. Guy's got one of the ugliest supporting character designs this side of GT and not much of a personality (so far, at least) but most of the chapter is dedicated to how super-strong he is and how amazed Vegeta is at his power even though woah he was still holding back and bluh. It's so overdone and it doesn't have anything close to a unique spin here. Part of that could be that our only point of reference in the galactic patrol was a weakling like Jaco (with infinitely more character and a sleeker-yet-dorky design) so there's very little weight to Merus supposedly being "the best".

I couldn't agree more with this.
I'm liking Moro a lot, but I couldn't care less about Merus. This trope is so overdone that it's hard for me to take it seriously anymore.

[mute_proxy]

2. Again, nothing in series suggest that there is any strength advantage between God ki and normal ki, its just a baseless fan assumption. That Toriyama quote says nothing about God ki in particular, just ki in general.

Super Saiyan God doesn't use regular ki. It uses God ki, stated by Beerus/Whis and shown not to be sensed by non god ki users. Ki is being used for fighting in SSGod, the same way as before, but in this case it's God ki (that's where the Toriyama quote comes in). Super Saiyan God is miles stronger than SS3 which uses non god ki. Everything in the series suggests that there is strength advantage between God ki and normal ki, because a god ki based transformation is miles stronger than a non god ki based transformation.

And yet there are multiple fighters without God ki that fight at SSG+ levels, and multiple beings with God Ki that can't even beat Perfect Cell. So no, that right there shows that there's no inherent strength difference between God ki and normal ki.

We're talking about the powerboost that a single fighter gets, in this case Goku, going from regular ki to god ki. Not who's stronger than who in comparison.
Also you're completely disregarding the fact that every character has an individual power level and strength, none of them are equal. If a god is weak, he is weak.
In fights Ki is utilized as a tool, it's not a magical force that does everything for you. If a non god ki user trains a strong body and utilizes ki well, he can be stronger than a god, who isn't as competent. It all comes down to the individual.

[JazzMazz]

I enjoyed the set up for the arc.

Really glad that we've got some genuine intrigue and set up.


Looking forward to seeing where this goes. Keeping my expectations at a base because I know pretty much all of the manga's original arcs start off great before kind of descending into mediocrity at one point or another.

[Metalwario64]

Toyotaro still can't resist copying Toriyama's drawings from the original manga:

[Lionel]

I enjoyed the chapter as well. We received quite a bit of expository background information on Moro or more specifically his relationship with the Galactic Patrol, Kaioshins, and in a verbal admission the amount of worlds he has consumed. Many will say that the train incident consumed too much time and focus but it was a good way to demonstrate the more levelled but impressive nonetheless sleight of hand and all around professional seriousness of Merus when it comes to his job as a member of the Galactic Patrol. Here's hoping the momentum carries on into the next chapter with a possible first encounter against Moro.