The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[DanielSSJ]

How do we know he isn't far off SSJ Gohan? He couldn't get out the Z Sword which SSJ Gohan did fairly easy.

Just because two characters somewhat close in battle power (i.e. Ki level), doesn't mean all their attributes match up. It makes sense that the Saiyans would have an advantage over other races in brute strength, whereas the Kaioshin would excel at using mystical powers. Hence, Gohan can remove the sword when Shin can't, despite a relatively small gap between them.

Super Saiyan Gohan Ki: 30; Strength: 35

Shin: Ki: 25; Strength 20

[TheUltimateNinja]

How do we know he isn't far off SSJ Gohan? He couldn't get out the Z Sword which SSJ Gohan did fairly easy.

Just because two characters somewhat close in battle power (i.e. Ki level), doesn't mean all their attributes match up. It makes sense that the Saiyans would have an advantage over other races in brute strength, whereas the Kaioshin would excel at using mystical powers. Hence, Gohan can remove the sword when Shin can't, despite a relatively small gap between them.

Super Saiyan Gohan Ki: 30; Strength: 35

Shin: Ki: 25; Strength 20

Even with strength proportional to their powers, it still makes sense that Gohan would be able to pull it out while Kaioshin is unable to.
It could be something like this:
Kaioshin: 8
Power needed to pull the sword out: 9
SSJ Gohan: 10

[Bullza]

And how do Super Saiyan Goten and Kid Trunks stack up in comparison to Piccolo, Supreme Ski and the Cell Games Super Saiyans?

At least Post ROSAT they appeared to be stronger than Piccolo. Are they stronger than Supreme Kai?

[dragonball0900]

The numbers from two posts above mine are actually the same as the numbers I have. It also makes sense since Supreme Kai would be inferior to the saiyans and still be a lot superior to Piccolo. The statements are clear in the manga where Supreme Kai's physical strenght is.

And how do Super Saiyan Goten and Kid Trunks stack up in comparison to Piccolo, Supreme Ski and the Cell Games Super Saiyans?

At least Post ROSAT they appeared to be stronger than Piccolo. Are they stronger than Supreme Kai?

The kids are stated to be far stronger than Android 18. But they are weaker than Buu Saga Gohan, as stated in the manga. I would say the kids would be around Semi Perfect Cell tier before the ROSAT, and after the ROSAT they are close to Piccolo's level, but I wouldn't say they surpass him.

[TheUltimateNinja]

And how do Super Saiyan Goten and Kid Trunks stack up in comparison to Piccolo, Supreme Ski and the Cell Games Super Saiyans?

At least Post ROSAT they appeared to be stronger than Piccolo. Are they stronger than Supreme Kai?

They're definitely stronger Post-RoSAT, Pre-RoSAT they're probably in the same league, maybe a bit weaker.

Goten and Trunks should totally outclass everyone at the Cell Games except for Goku and Gohan, and Post-RoSAT they should be around the same as FPSSJ Goku.

[OLKv3]

And how do Super Saiyan Goten and Kid Trunks stack up in comparison to Piccolo, Supreme Ski and the Cell Games Super Saiyans?

At least Post ROSAT they appeared to be stronger than Piccolo. Are they stronger than Supreme Kai?

They're definitely stronger Post-RoSAT, Pre-RoSAT they're probably in the same league, maybe a bit weaker.

Goten and Trunks should totally outclass everyone at the Cell Games except for Goku and Gohan, and Post-RoSAT they should be around the same as FPSSJ Goku.

I wouldn't put them THAT high. Pre-RoSaT They're enough to scare 18 but not enough to completely stomp her like Vegeta was after he left the room the first time. Vegeta and Trunks powered up a lot by the Cell Games, and so did Piccolo

[TheUltimateNinja]

And how do Super Saiyan Goten and Kid Trunks stack up in comparison to Piccolo, Supreme Ski and the Cell Games Super Saiyans?

At least Post ROSAT they appeared to be stronger than Piccolo. Are they stronger than Supreme Kai?

They're definitely stronger Post-RoSAT, Pre-RoSAT they're probably in the same league, maybe a bit weaker.

Goten and Trunks should totally outclass everyone at the Cell Games except for Goku and Gohan, and Post-RoSAT they should be around the same as FPSSJ Goku.

I wouldn't put them THAT high. Pre-RoSaT They're enough to scare 18 but not enough to completely stomp her like Vegeta was after he left the room the first time. Vegeta and Trunks powered up a lot by the Cell Games, and so did Piccolo

They would have stomped her easily if it wasn't for that costume. Their power was even higher than Piccolo's, and Piccolo would easily destroy 18.

[OLKv3]

They're definitely stronger Post-RoSAT, Pre-RoSAT they're probably in the same league, maybe a bit weaker.

Goten and Trunks should totally outclass everyone at the Cell Games except for Goku and Gohan, and Post-RoSAT they should be around the same as FPSSJ Goku.

I wouldn't put them THAT high. Pre-RoSaT They're enough to scare 18 but not enough to completely stomp her like Vegeta was after he left the room the first time. Vegeta and Trunks powered up a lot by the Cell Games, and so did Piccolo

They would have stomped her easily if it wasn't for that costume. Their power was even higher than Piccolo's, and Piccolo would easily destroy 18.

How did you get to that conclusion? Piccolo is impressed by their power but nothing says they're stronger. 18 also wasn't going all out since she still thought she was fighting a strong human until she recognized who they were. Trunks and Goten were losing pretty handily in that fight. We have no clue how they'd place against her other than their ki blast being much stronger than 18 realized.

At the Cell games, Piccolo, Vegeta, and Trunks were enough to face Cell Jrs. That's a massive gain from how powerful they were previously in the arc.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I wouldn't put them THAT high. Pre-RoSaT They're enough to scare 18 but not enough to completely stomp her like Vegeta was after he left the room the first time. Vegeta and Trunks powered up a lot by the Cell Games, and so did Piccolo

They would have stomped her easily if it wasn't for that costume. Their power was even higher than Piccolo's, and Piccolo would easily destroy 18.

How did you get to that conclusion? Piccolo is impressed by their power but nothing says they're stronger. 18 also wasn't going all out since she still thought she was fighting a strong human until she recognized who they were. Trunks and Goten were losing pretty handily in that fight. We have no clue how they'd place against her other than their ki blast being much stronger than 18 realized.

At the Cell games, Piccolo, Vegeta, and Trunks were enough to face Cell Jrs. That's a massive gain from how powerful they were previously in the arc.

Piccolo says they're the last hope for Earth even before fusion is mentioned. Sure, they can use the RoSAT, but he has a year left in the RoSAT as well, this means that they could at the very least be much stronger than him with only 1 extra year of training.

Also, the Daizenshuu states that Goten's power is not the least bit inferior to Gohan's, this means that Post-RoSAT Goten has to be equal to pre-training Gohan at minimum.

[Bullza]

I have Pre-Rosat Super Saiyan Goten and Trunks being considerably stronger than Android 18. About on par with Android 16 actually.

Definitely not as strong as Piccolo that would seem to high considering that Super Saiyan Gotenks is supposed to be stronger than Goten and Trunks together but Pre ROSAT Super Saiyan Gotenks was said to be weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta.

The fusion wouldn't seem like such a boost if the kids were stronger than Piccolo.

I do have Post ROSAT Super Saiyan Goten and Trunks above Piccolo though because of a couple things that happened in Super.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I have Pre-Rosat Super Saiyan Goten and Trunks being considerably stronger than Android 18. About on par with Android 16 actually.

Definitely not as strong as Piccolo that would seem to high considering that Super Saiyan Gotenks is supposed to be stronger than Goten and Trunks together but Pre ROSAT Super Saiyan Gotenks was said to be weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta.

The fusion wouldn't seem like such a boost if the kids were stronger than Piccolo.

I do have Post ROSAT Super Saiyan Goten and Trunks above Piccolo though because of a couple things that happened in Super.

At this point Piccolo doesn't measure up to even a quarter of Goku and Majin Vegeta, so they could still be stronger than him yet notably weaker than Goku and Vegeta.
Piccolo: 2.2
Pre-RoSAT Goten & Trunks: 2.5-3
SSJ Gotenks: 9-9.9
Majin Vegeta: 10

[Bullza]

The fusion only making them three to four times stronger seems too small especially when they'd already be twice as strong just stacked together.

If we actually use a bit of non canon material here, in Fusion Reborn Super Saiyan Gogeta was considerably stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku and he's eight times stronger than Super Saiyan Goku already.

SSJ = 1
SSJ3 = 8
Fusion SSJ = Well over 10

Also do you have a link for this

Also, the Daizenshuu states that Goten's power is not the least bit inferior to Gohan's

[TheUltimateNinja]

The fusion only making them three to four times stronger seems too small especially when they'd already be twice as strong just stacked together.

If we actually use a bit of non canon material here, in Fusion Reborn Super Saiyan Gogeta was considerably stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku and he's eight times stronger than Super Saiyan Goku already.

SSJ = 1
SSJ3 = 8
Fusion SSJ = Well over 10

Also do you have a link for this

Also, the Daizenshuu states that Goten's power is not the least bit inferior to Gohan's

Goku and Vegeta produce much stronger fusions than normal due to their rivalry. Also, I have Goten and Trunks improving their fusion multiplier after they train in the RoSAT.



That's from the now defunct Kanzentai, I don't know if Kanzenshuu still has their translations.

[Khin]

Goten made Gohan sweat, struggle, and put effort in his attacks, while Trunks manged to land a hit on Vegeta and take a reflex punch with just a minor injury — I don’t see #16 achieving either of those feat, at all. For comparison, #16 didn’t even budge Semi-Cell with his punch and was taken out with a casual Ki blast, and Gohan and Vegeta by the Boo ac are more than capable of trashing Semi-Perfect Cell effortlessly.

Regarding the statement/implication about pre-RoSaT Gotenks being weaker than Vegeta, the Daizenshuu entry is quite vague and could just be referring to base Gotenks, especially since the image used for said statement have Gotenks in his base form. Gotenks (and Piccolo) seemed confident about base Gotenks’ power after the RoSaT training so I don’t see any problem with them being stronger than Vegeta in base. I just don’t buy the whole SS Gotenks (Pre) < SS2 Vegeta notion.

That's from the now defunct Kanzentai, I don't know if Kanzenshuu still has their translations.

You still view the whole translation of the guide via Wayback Machine.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Goten made Gohan sweat, struggle, and put effort in his attacks, while Trunks manged to land a hit on Vegeta and take a reflex punch with just a minor injury — I don’t see #16 achieving either of those feat, at all. For comparison, #16 didn’t even budge Semi-Cell with his punch and was taken out with a casual Ki blast, and Gohan and Vegeta by the Boo ac are more than capable of trashing Semi-Perfect Cell effortlessly.

Regarding the statement/implication about pre-RoSaT Gotenks being weaker than Vegeta, the Daizenshuu entry is quite vague and could just be referring to base Gotenks, especially since the image used for said statement have Gotenks in his base form. Gotenks (and Piccolo) seemed confident about base Gotenks’ power after the RoSaT training so I don’t see any problem with them being stronger than Vegeta in base. I just don’t buy the whole SS Gotenks (Pre) < SS2 Vegeta notion.

Do you believe fusions have lower SSJ multipliers?

[Bullza]

Goku and Vegeta produce much stronger fusions than normal due to their rivalry.

I'm not sure if that's technically correct. Wasn't it just commenting on how strong Vegito was and it led to one of the Kai's saying that it helps that they live to outdo each other.

Not necessarily that the fusion was extra strong because they were rivals but the fusion was strong because they both individually were very strong because of their constant training to surpass each other.

That's from the now defunct Kanzentai, I don't know if Kanzenshuu still has their translations.

Is that referring to Pre Rosat Goten? Post Rosat Goten? The latter seems more likely because it mentions fusion. Is it Gohan before he training for the Tournament? After training? After training with the Z Sword?

Is there actually a significant difference at all between Present and Post Rosat Goten considering he was only in there for was it days?

I can kind of see it because of how he pushed Gohan when they were sparring and Trunks was able to hit Vegeta. I just don't know how that would work with the fusion because I don't consider the fusion multiplier increasing and Gotenks did go from weaker than Majin Vegeta to.....stronger than Majin Buu?

If the kids improved to such an extent aswell they should be stronger than Gohan but they aren't which would instead mean they're significantly below Gohan though it didn't seem like that either.

[Khin]

Do you believe fusions have lower SSJ multipliers?

I honestly haven’t decide anything of it yet. Lately, I have been thinking of scrapping battle powers and multipliers entirely and just view everything in a ‘tier list’ since I think it makes everything much easier. I’ll probably still make a BP list, though. I could either of way for the lower SS multipliers thing.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Do you believe fusions have lower SSJ multipliers?

I honestly haven’t decide anything of it yet. Lately, I have been thinking of scrapping battle powers and multipliers entirely and just view everything in a ‘tier list’ since I think it makes everything much easier. I’ll probably still make a BP list, though. I could either of way for the lower SS multipliers thing.

Where would Super Buu get so much power from, though? He'd go from being a joke to SSJ3 Goku to ~400x stronger.

[Bullza]

Gotenks (and Piccolo) seemed confident about base Gotenks’ power after the RoSaT training so I don’t see any problem with them being stronger than Vegeta in base. I just don’t buy the whole SS Gotenks (Pre) < SS2 Vegeta notion.

Couldn't that also imply that Base Gotenks after the training was actually stronger than Super Saiyan Gotenks before his training though?

Piccolo saw Super Saiyan Gotenks and knew how strong he was. Later on though in the ROSAT Piccolo says that Gotenks has improved drastically and could win.

But that wasn't taking Super Saiyan into account because he said he didn't know they could transform while fused.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Gotenks (and Piccolo) seemed confident about base Gotenks’ power after the RoSaT training so I don’t see any problem with them being stronger than Vegeta in base. I just don’t buy the whole SS Gotenks (Pre) < SS2 Vegeta notion.

Couldn't that also imply that Base Gotenks after the training was actually stronger than Super Saiyan Gotenks before his training though?

Piccolo saw Super Saiyan Gotenks and knew how strong he was. Later on though in the ROSAT Piccolo says that Gotenks has improved drastically and could win.

But that wasn't taking Super Saiyan into account because he said he didn't know they could transform while fused.

This means Base Gotenks was much stronger than SSJ Gotenks (Pre) since the implication here isn't just Base Gotenks (Post) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre), it's Base Gotenks (Post) > SSJ Gotenks (Expected Post) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre)