The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Khin]

Where would Super Buu get so much power from, though? He'd go from being a joke to SSJ3 Goku to ~400x stronger.

That’s exactly why it could go either way. I haven’t decide on anything so far and the Boo arc is where I usually go back-and-forth with my interpretation. I could either not take the guidebooks into consideration, ignoring battle powers and multipliers entirely, going with the lower SS multipliers for fusion interpretation, etc.

I generally don’t take numbers that seriously and just make them because it’s fun, that’s why I don’t have any issue with base Gotenks (Post) being stronger than SS2 Vegeta.

Couldn't that also imply that Base Gotenks after the training was actually stronger than Super Saiyan Gotenks before his training though?

Piccolo saw Super Saiyan Gotenks and knew how strong he was. Later on though in the ROSAT Piccolo says that Gotenks has improved drastically and could win.

But that wasn't taking Super Saiyan into account because he said he didn't know they could transform while fused.

Yeah, I actually believed this before, but like other things in the Boo arc, I still haven’t decide on anything for this. Gotenks definitely got a considerable boost in his training in the room, but his cockiness should also taken into account. For example, shortly before their fight, Trunks believed that they could now beat Majin Boo without turning into Super Saiyan (which Goten agreed to), but later we saw Boo effortlessly tanking his attacks and calling him worthless (much to his dismay), so clearly his expectations were wrong.

It could also be that Piccolo was just being way too optimistic at that time, since once Gotenks was getting his kicked by Boo, Piccolo realized that he might be wrong.

[Bullza]

Well it also seems very farfetched that Gotenks got over 50 times stronger in about a week. It'd also mean that Base Goten and Trunks would have surpassed their former Super Saiyan selves aswell and that's just impossible.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Well it also seems very farfetched that Gotenks got over 50 times stronger in about a week. It'd also mean that Base Goten and Trunks would have surpassed their former Super Saiyan selves aswell and that's just impossible.

It was 2 weeks, not that that makes things much better. There's also the fact that Gotenks can only exist 30 minutes at a time and has a 1 hour cooldown, this means that the actual training time was only 5 days, this would be further reduced once they unlocked SSJ3 which reduces the time limit to 5 minutes.

[Khin]

Well it also seems very farfetched that Gotenks got over 50 times stronger in about a week. It'd also mean that Base Goten and Trunks would have surpassed their former Super Saiyan selves aswell and that's just impossible.

Well, Piccolo kind of implied that a small boost from Goten and Trunks would be a big one for Gotenks, so it’s possible that the boost for the fusion isn’t linear. If we assume that Goten and Trunks before their training in the room were around the same level as the Cell Juniors, and after their training they reached a roughly even power with Gohan at the 25th Budokai, then that’s a pretty considerable gain in power, which naturally, would also mean that the boost Gotenks would receive would be massive.

If you believe that the multiplier for the fusion is lower or just don’t care about battle powers or multipliers, I would imagine that it would probably be much easier to swallow.

[dragon boss z]

The fusion only making them three to four times stronger seems too small especially when they'd already be twice as strong just stacked together.

If we actually use a bit of non canon material here, in Fusion Reborn Super Saiyan Gogeta was considerably stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku and he's eight times stronger than Super Saiyan Goku already.

SSJ = 1
SSJ3 = 8
Fusion SSJ = Well over 10

Also do you have a link for this

Also, the Daizenshuu states that Goten's power is not the least bit inferior to Gohan's

Goku and Vegeta produce much stronger fusions than normal due to their rivalry. Also, I have Goten and Trunks improving their fusion multiplier after they train in the RoSAT.



That's from the now defunct Kanzentai, I don't know if Kanzenshuu still has their translations.

Does that scan really say that the ki blast Goten creates has outstanding destructive power? lmao

[TheUltimateNinja]

The fusion only making them three to four times stronger seems too small especially when they'd already be twice as strong just stacked together.

If we actually use a bit of non canon material here, in Fusion Reborn Super Saiyan Gogeta was considerably stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku and he's eight times stronger than Super Saiyan Goku already.

SSJ = 1
SSJ3 = 8
Fusion SSJ = Well over 10

Also do you have a link for this

Goku and Vegeta produce much stronger fusions than normal due to their rivalry. Also, I have Goten and Trunks improving their fusion multiplier after they train in the RoSAT.



That's from the now defunct Kanzentai, I don't know if Kanzenshuu still has their translations.

Does that scan really say that the ki blast Goten creates has outstanding destructive power? lmao

That ki blast would kill Namek Goku.

[Bullza]

So do you all think Super Saiyan Goten and Trunks being Android 16 level is too low then?

[TheUltimateNinja]

So do you all think Super Saiyan Goten and Trunks being Android 16 level is too low then?

Yeah, 16 is fodder to suppressed Semi Perfect Cell who is fodder to Grade 2 Vegeta who is fodder to Cell Games Vegeta who doesn't even count as fodder for Cell Arc Goku who is about equivalent to Buu Arc Gohan who Goten was able to challenge.

SSJ Gohan is at least 5x stronger than 16, he wouldn't have any trouble at all with someone that weak.

[Bullza]

Based on the Daizenshuu then would it be right to say

Saiyaman saga Super Saiyan Gohan >= Pre Rosat Super Saiyan Goten

24th Tournament Super Saiyan Gohan >= Post Rosat Super Saiyan Goten

If so by my own numbers that would put Pre Rosat SSJ Goten between Cell games SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Goku and Post Rosat SSJ Goten slightly above SS Goku.

What do people think about that?

[dragon boss z]

Goku and Vegeta produce much stronger fusions than normal due to their rivalry. Also, I have Goten and Trunks improving their fusion multiplier after they train in the RoSAT.



That's from the now defunct Kanzentai, I don't know if Kanzenshuu still has their translations.

Does that scan really say that the ki blast Goten creates has outstanding destructive power? lmao

That ki blast would kill Namek Goku.

Maybe in your dreams it would. And the line is clearly referring to it's destructive power, not it's potency, unless the translation isn't coming through quite right.

[ZombieVito]

Based on the Daizenshuu then would it be right to say

Saiyaman saga Super Saiyan Gohan >= Pre Rosat Super Saiyan Goten

24th Tournament Super Saiyan Gohan >= Post Rosat Super Saiyan Goten

If so by my own numbers that would put Pre Rosat SSJ Goten between Cell games SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Goku and Post Rosat SSJ Goten slightly above SS Goku.

What do people think about that?

More or less, yeah.

Goten and Trunks get two power ups in the Boo arc. One training for the tournament and one from the RoSaT and while the latter lasted 1/4 of the former it still gave a bit more of a boost IMO thanks to the special circumstances the room has.

Maybe in your dreams it would. And the line is clearly referring to it's destructive power, not it's potency, unless the translation isn't coming through quite right.

Goten in base can kill all forms of Namek Goku (with the exception of Super Saiyan) with his finger.

[Bullza]

What about Super Saiyan Gotenks (Post ROSAT) vs Super Saiyan 3 Goku?

I've always seen mixed opinions on that one.

[DanielSSJ]

What about Super Saiyan Gotenks (Post ROSAT) vs Super Saiyan 3 Goku?

I've always seen mixed opinions on that one.

I personally thinks Super Saiyan Gotenks maxes out around Fat Boo's strength, and that SS3 Goku would thrash him.

[ssbgoku]

Gotenks (and Piccolo) seemed confident about base Gotenks’ power after the RoSaT training so I don’t see any problem with them being stronger than Vegeta in base. I just don’t buy the whole SS Gotenks (Pre) < SS2 Vegeta notion.

Couldn't that also imply that Base Gotenks after the training was actually stronger than Super Saiyan Gotenks before his training though?

Piccolo saw Super Saiyan Gotenks and knew how strong he was. Later on though in the ROSAT Piccolo says that Gotenks has improved drastically and could win.

But that wasn't taking Super Saiyan into account because he said he didn't know they could transform while fused.

This means Base Gotenks was much stronger than SSJ Gotenks (Pre) since the implication here isn't just Base Gotenks (Post) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre), it's Base Gotenks (Post) > SSJ Gotenks (Expected Post) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre)

Well that is great conclusion and most likely but what if we take somr conditions in consideration as:
- Piccolo was optimistic
- pre rosat ss gotenks was cocky so he was supressed while piccolo managed to only grasp that a bit of power he was letting off as he escaped just few seconds ago.
- Ss3 goku was holding back against fat buu so he compared his supressed state with ss gotenks.
- Lastly maybe goku got zenkai after his battle with vegeta but due to being dead it was delayed and only took effect once he got life from elder kai...

Maybe that why he seemed stronger then or just Akira retconnrd ss3 goku to be post ss rosat gotenks level at least. This is how I see it

Post rosat ss gotenks(full power) > full power ss3 goku > pre rosat ss gotenks (full power) > post rosat base gotenks (full power) ~ pre rosat supressed ss gotenks(expected fp) ~ supressed ss3 goku > pre rosat base gotenks

[Roronoa-pt]

All fighters from the left are from current DBS episode.

Piccolo vs Cell [Super Perfect form].
Gohan [No Super Saiyan or Ultimate forms] vs Mister Boo.
Roshi [Full power form] vs Goku [BoZ].
Kuririn vs Freeza [1st form].

Piccolo
Buu
Roshi
If this is Namek Freeza,then Kuririn.

[mcdjbeatz]

What about Super Saiyan Gotenks (Post ROSAT) vs Super Saiyan 3 Goku?

I've always seen mixed opinions on that one.

Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”

Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”

Context: Goku tells Piccolo that he ‘probably’ couldn’t have defeated Boo with Super Saiyan 3
Piccolo: “…Probably? Knowing you, why didn’t you try until the very end?...Does it have to do with that energy…?”
Goku: “No… I’m no longer a human who’s particularly even supposed to be here…I shouldn’t be the one to do it. It’d be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another…After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right? …It's a nasty gamble, but…Seeing those two super-gifted squirts, it made me want to take this gamble…”

With the way that Goku was talking up fusion and Piccolo's complements about SSJ Gotenks' power (Pre ROSAT) leads me to believe SSJ Gotenks (Pre ROSAT)> SSJ 3 Goku, especially because Goku was not convinced that he could beat Fat Boo at that point in the story, although Goku corrected himself later I think it was intended for SSJ Gotenks to be stronger

Context: after evil Boo shows up and demands to fight Gotenks
Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!”

Context: seeing Gotenks after he’d trained in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “He-he really is different…! He really has greatly powered up…! Th-this just might…!”

These statements lead me to believe that Base Gotenks (Post ROSAT)> SSJ Gotenks (Pre ROSAT) because Piccolo believed that Base Gotenks stood a chance against Super Buu whereas he flatly stated that SSJ Gotenks has no chance. While Piccolo corrected himself the fact that Piccolo believed that Base Gotenks had even a slither of a chance leads me to my conclusion

In short Base Gotenks (Post ROSAT)>SSJ Gotenks (Pre ROSAT)>SSJ 3 Goku

While the idea of Gotenks becoming 50x stronger in a week is farfetch'd I can somewhat buy due to Goten and Trunks being very gifted as noted by Goku when talking to Piccolo, as for Super Buu becoming 400x stronger I can somewhat buy that too when considering how much of a power boost Piccolo gained from merging with Kami and even how much more powerful characters who fuse become

Context: Trunks doesn’t like the idea of fighting Boo as a Super Saiyan 3 from the start
Trunks: “I think…that we’ve already progressed so much that even in a regular state Fusion, we’ll be about equal with Majin Boo...”

At the very least Base Gotenks is equal to Fat Boo which means a Super Saiyan Gotenks (Post ROSAT) would be enough to beat SSJ3 Goku anyway

[TheUltimateNinja]

What about Super Saiyan Gotenks (Post ROSAT) vs Super Saiyan 3 Goku?

I've always seen mixed opinions on that one.

We only have statements to rely on, in terms of feats he's accomplished absolutely nothing with the exception of the Ghost Kamikaze Attack.

We have Goku telling Piccolo that he told Buu that Gotenks would be stronger than him, but that was a lie since he never actually said this to Buu.

So we only have Piccolo and Gotenks' own statements to rely on and personally I don't put much stock into them. Gotenks for obvious reasons, Piccolo because he thinks Base Gotenks can win yet he facepalms when Base Gotenks fails to do anything and even SSJ Gotenks is unable to deal any damage except with the Ghost Kamikaze attack.

[Ki Breaker]

Yamcha at his prime vs tarble

Current goku vs berrus
How long till berrus takes him down, he can't use hakai

Buffed basil vs majin vegeta

[TheUltimateNinja]

Yamcha at his prime vs tarble

Current goku vs berrus
How long till berrus takes him down, he can't use hakai

Buffed basil vs majin vegeta

Tarble gets wrecked.

Goku gets destroyed, Beerus can take him down in less than a second if he uses his full power.

Majin Vegeta wins, Good Buu's power is in the same league as his.

[dragon boss z]

Maybe in your dreams it would. And the line is clearly referring to it's destructive power, not it's potency, unless the translation isn't coming through quite right.

Goten in base can kill all forms of Namek Goku (with the exception of Super Saiyan) with his finger.

No he wouldn't. He was having trouble with a first form Frieza level opponent, didn't know how to fly yet, didn't know how to control hi ki attacks properly, and post Buu saga base Goku was still weaker than final form Frieza, confirmed by Beerus.

Lets say we took the statement that base Goten was about base Gohan level at face value. He would still lose to kaioken Goku.