"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[TKA]

I watched the LA premiere of the Broly film. So I am entitled to make a fully informed comparison, English-dubbed at the very least.

Spoiler:

And my conclusion is that the new Broly has none of the characterization that originally made him popular in his debut. His personality is boring and doesn't lead to any interesting developments. He has the raging maniac down when he's powered up, but that's not why I or many others enjoyed OG Broly in the first place. New Broly is also a very submissive character with a very weak personality. In comparison, OG Broly is a dominant force to be reckoned with, with a sadistic & cruel nature befitting of the Legendary Super Saiyan Vegeta talked about in the anime, taking no shit from anyone. He was someone who could strike terror into the audience. OG Broly might have had a very straightforward personality, but he nailed it down so damn well good.

Well this is a your mileage may vary thing then, because the only emotion original Broly elicits from me "Let's just get this over with" at best, and "I'm gonna turn my tv off/close the tab/turn off the game" at worst. I see absolutely no redeeming qualities in him as a character for various reasons that I don't care to get into at the moment.

But, nonetheless, thank you for your perspective on the matter.

[JazzMazz]

I watched the LA premiere of the Broly film. So I am entitled to make a fully informed comparison, English-dubbed at the very least.

Spoiler:

And my conclusion is that the new Broly has none of the characterization that originally made him popular in his debut. His personality is boring and doesn't lead to any interesting developments. He has the raging maniac down when he's powered up, but that's not why I or many others enjoyed OG Broly in the first place. New Broly is also a very submissive character with a very weak personality. In comparison, OG Broly is a dominant force to be reckoned with, with a sadistic & cruel nature befitting of the Legendary Super Saiyan Vegeta talked about in the anime, taking no shit from anyone. He was someone who could strike terror into the audience. OG Broly might have had a very straightforward personality, but he nailed it down so damn well good.

Well this is a your mileage may vary thing then, because the only emotion original Broly elicits from me "Let's just get this over with" at best, and "I'm gonna turn my tv off/close the tab/turn off the game" at worst. I see absolutely no redeeming qualities in him as a character for various reasons that I don't care to get into at the moment.

But, nonetheless, thank you for your perspective on the matter.

I'm going to add to this because I'm getting slightly annoyed at the glorification of he overly muscle bound, psychotic freak from the old movies as something "unique" and "interesting", because he was hardly unique in either of those senses. Being psychotic and cruel is hardly a unique character trait, and yet, of all the movie villains, I only see Broly get praised in this respect, which I find somewhat baffling considering there are loads of villains from those original villains that were FAR more brutal and psychotic than Broly. It seems to me like people are just getting nostalgiac that really wasn't that good to begin with just because a new different interpretation of the character has come along.

[Doctor.]

So how exactly are we supposed to reconcile the events with RoF with the manga? In the manga, we are supposed to follow the events of the RoF movie. And in the movie, Goku had "Saiyan Beyond God", that was stronger than SSG, according to all the promotional material, it had God Ki, and it apparently was going to invalidate the normal SSJ forms. But in the manga, Freeza is still impressed with SSJ Caulifla being stronger than Namek SSJ Goku, and Goku treating Trunks surpassing SSJ2 Gohan as a big deal, Goku clearly doesn't have God Ki in Base, the normal SSJ forms still appear, and it just doesn't fit.

Not trying to complain about the manga. I'm just confused/curious about the matter.

Assume the same as the movie but Goku goes Super Saiyan to fight base Freeza. That's my headcanon. Final form Freeza is clearly stronger than the base Saiyans in the Super manga considering he can hold his own against SS Caulifla.

That actually fills some holes pretty well. But then what about the movie stating that Goku and Vegeta working together could beat Beerus? That was taken out of the anime retelling, and it's clearly not the case in the manga because Vegeta achieves CSSB which is way better than SSB, and yet he's one shot by Beerus and Beerus says he needs something like a million years of training to compete with him.

And in the movie I believe they say Freeza is stronger than Buu or something along the lines of Freeza being the highest ki they have felt, which would be too much for SSJ Goku withiout any God absorption shenanigans that were in the anime continuity. (I'm not really positive on this so correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it was implied this iteration of Freeza was stronger than Buu.

CSSB just allows you to use 100% of SSB's full power at once. I assume Whis was saying they could beat Beerus once they, in fact, got over the stamina issue. And behold, while CSSB Vegeta loses to Beerus, Vegeta + Goku would be a different story.

As for Freeza, you can assume Goku went God to fight Freeza in RoF and Freeza was just holding back vs SS1 Caulifla in the ToP, I guess.

[prince212]

So what is happening currently on earth? Did Mr. Satan inform anyone that Goku and Vegeta were kidnapped?
Will they even search for Goku and Vegeta?
One solution for this would be later down the road to state that Jaco informed Bulma of the situation...

I think goku and vegeta will be defeated and somehow any guy from earth will make an appearance . Buu needs Satan .
I doubt this will be just a fight against Moro , they already know where he is , they are not that far from him ..so this arc needs some twists, if they talked about praise about the story on it ... this should be at least 10 chapters

[PFM18]

Assume the same as the movie but Goku goes Super Saiyan to fight base Freeza. That's my headcanon. Final form Freeza is clearly stronger than the base Saiyans in the Super manga considering he can hold his own against SS Caulifla.

That actually fills some holes pretty well. But then what about the movie stating that Goku and Vegeta working together could beat Beerus? That was taken out of the anime retelling, and it's clearly not the case in the manga because Vegeta achieves CSSB which is way better than SSB, and yet he's one shot by Beerus and Beerus says he needs something like a million years of training to compete with him.

And in the movie I believe they say Freeza is stronger than Buu or something along the lines of Freeza being the highest ki they have felt, which would be too much for SSJ Goku withiout any God absorption shenanigans that were in the anime continuity. (I'm not really positive on this so correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it was implied this iteration of Freeza was stronger than Buu.

CSSB just allows you to use 100% of SSB's full power at once. I assume Whis was saying they could beat Beerus once they, in fact, got over the stamina issue. And behold, while CSSB Vegeta loses to Beerus, Vegeta + Goku would be a different story.

As for Freeza, you can assume Goku went God to fight Freeza in RoF and Freeza was just holding back vs SS1 Caulifla in the ToP, I guess.

Interesting. I guess we could simply assume that Whis's statement held true, projecting that they would learn to utilize the full-power of SSB. But if that's the case, If Vegeta got one-shot, and is apparently a million years of training away from beating him(maybe hyberbole?) then I don't see how adding Goku to the equation would change the outcome.

That works, actually. I think I'm going to go with that head canon. But I mean, I think this is exactly why they shouldn't have skipped RoF in the manga.

No offense, but I'm surprised you're trying to rationalize this, and logically working your way through it. I would have guessed you'd have a response akin to "the scaling in Super sucks, you can't make it work anyway" or something like that.

[Rakurai]

I'm going to add to this because I'm getting slightly annoyed at the glorification of he overly muscle bound, psychotic freak from the old movies as something "unique" and "interesting", because he was hardly unique in either of those senses. Being psychotic and cruel is hardly a unique character trait, and yet, of all the movie villains, I only see Broly get praised in this respect, which I find somewhat baffling considering there are loads of villains from those original villains that were FAR more brutal and psychotic than Broly. It seems to me like people are just getting nostalgiac that really wasn't that good to begin with just because a new different interpretation of the character has come along.

And frankly I'm getting annoyed at this stupid, assumptive, ill-conceived, and bland notion that people enjoy Broly cause of "nostalgia," because I certainly don't praise DB with regards to that. If it were up to nostalgia, I would be looking back on all the DB movies with fond memories and defending Bio-Broly while I was at it.

[Marlowe89]

It seems to me like people are just getting nostalgiac that really wasn't that good to begin with just because a new different interpretation of the character has come along.

Eh. Both interpretations of Broly are so uniquely different that I can see why some people would prefer any one version of the character over the other.

I'd agree quite fully if we were talking about Bardock, though.

[Cetra]

I'm going to add to this because I'm getting slightly annoyed at the glorification of he overly muscle bound, psychotic freak from the old movies as something "unique" and "interesting", because he was hardly unique in either of those senses. Being psychotic and cruel is hardly a unique character trait, and yet, of all the movie villains, I only see Broly get praised in this respect, which I find somewhat baffling considering there are loads of villains from those original villains that were FAR more brutal and psychotic than Broly. It seems to me like people are just getting nostalgiac that really wasn't that good to begin with just because a new different interpretation of the character has come along.

That's nonsense consindering Originoly fans including me are not defending him as being "unique" but simply defending him from the "he has 0 personality" and the "he is so much worse" claims. And not once is this about "he is such a unique and incredible character, the pinnacle of literature". And yes, Rebootly still is less. Place a youtube comment below a video about what Originoly is with failry acknowledging everything about the movie (fair means EVERYTHING, not just the anime villain cliché) and you still just get "lulz 24/7 muscle head Kakarott". You would have to literally ignore his own movie and overrate the new movie to come to the conclusion that an overemphasized pitiful side (that through emphasizing now makes Rebootly a dog that everyone wants to hug for being so poor because "aww isn't he the only Broly that had it bad") that he already had, just with less build-up and the removal of a cliché side is "more character" than a pitiful side plus the cliché side. Also the word "unique" is ridiculous to even be considered as usable by any Broly. Isn't Rebootly the guy that gets praised because he is so much like Goku and Gohan and Tarzan? Yeah, very unique.

Rebootly is Dolph Lundgreen in Universal Soldier 1. A resurrected (for the new era of the franchise, thus rebooted) soldier, used for battle, going mad, carrying around an ear. The difference is Dolph Lundgren has his victim's ears on a necklace and that hehad nko blueprint to originate from that was spat on. Congratulations, Broly. You're Dolph Lundgren.

[emperior]

Some people really overrate the old Broly. His backstory was stupid and nonsensical: how the hell did they fail to kill him and his father, and how the fuck did they both survive a planet’s explosion if they can’t breathe in open space?

I can understand some people liking old Broly’s psychotic nature and badass lines when fully transformed, but apart from the few psychotic lines, the new Broly isn’t much different in the way he fights once he loses reason. Which, frankly, was all old Broly was.

His backstory is also better fleshed out and, to me, it makes more sense. It’s clear that Toriyama wrote him to be a character that can stay in the series, unlike the original Broly who was an irredeemable bastard who only served the purpose of being the villain who must be killed by the end of the movie.

[Cetra]

Which, frankly, was all old Broly was.

And no matter how many people say it and ignore the movie, it is still wrong. Also judging him by how he survived Vegeta's explosion? Seriously? Old Broly's character is not more overrated than the new one that apparently is such a complex and fascinating character because he got a few short lines in base and being a pure-hearted, frightened dog that does not want to fight. While getting rid of his lines in LSSJ. That is not how desire works psychologically, by the way. Broly wants to fight under certain conditions. No matter the reasons, or him being used, desparation not wanting to disobey his father or whatever, desire is desire. You cannot get rid of the "Id". Its the drive instance of personality. Really the only "he does not want to fight" is "he does not want it like Goku and Vegeta".

It’s clear that Toriyama wrote him to be a character that can stay in the series, unlike the original Broly who was an irredeemable bastard who only served the purpose of being the villain who must be killed by the end of the movie.

Very fair. They could not write a movie villain that stayed in the series. See Garlic Jr.

[prince212]

It’s clear that Toriyama wrote him to be a character that can stay in the series, unlike the original Broly who was an irredeemable bastard who only served the purpose of being the villain who must be killed by the end of the movie.

That’s it . I’d like the bastard and must be killed point combine with a cheelay with bad intentions and wrapped with them scaping to stay in the series ... if so .. i don’t know if he needs to stay ...
This series needs more bad guys that stay on the stage

[emperior]

It’s clear that Toriyama wrote him to be a character that can stay in the series, unlike the original Broly who was an irredeemable bastard who only served the purpose of being the villain who must be killed by the end of the movie.

That’s it . I’d like the bastard and must be killed point combine with a cheelay with bad intentions and wrapped with them scaping to stay in the series ... if so .. i don’t know if he needs to stay ...
This series needs more bad guys that stay on the stage

I think Freeza around as a bad guy is enough, and he plans on getting along with Broly so the possibility is not entirely out of the window.

[Miracles]

If we factor how Toriyama does not like to have his characters or themes so dark like classic Broly, we can conclude that his version of Broly would be lighter. It's the same with Bardock, TOEI's story of him was kind of tough for him, he put out a lighter alteration.

I guess those who don't care for Broly being an evil-destructive loving monstrosity in TOEI's version would prefer Toriyama's more sympathetic iteration.

[TKA]

If we factor how Toriyama does not like to have his characters or themes so dark like classic Broly, we can conclude that his version of Broly would be lighter.

I'd rather not get into the nitty-gritty about this film since I haven't seen it yet and I assume the same is true for most people here, but I find original Broly with his over the top "edginess" to be a 5 year old's idea of what is dark and cool. That makes him utter rubbish as a character for me. I find what Toriyama has done with this Broly is a much more mature, earnest and somber take with the character.

[prince212]

It’s clear that Toriyama wrote him to be a character that can stay in the series, unlike the original Broly who was an irredeemable bastard who only served the purpose of being the villain who must be killed by the end of the movie.

That’s it . I’d like the bastard and must be killed point combine with a cheelay with bad intentions and wrapped with them scaping to stay in the series ... if so .. i don’t know if he needs to stay ...
This series needs more bad guys that stay on the stage

I think Freeza around as a bad guy is enough, and he plans on getting along with Broly so the possibility is not entirely out of the window.

I guess I have to watch the movie , following spoilers I got that broly is not a bad guy ..
Merry Christmas everybody, hope you guys are having a good one

[kemuri07]

If we factor how Toriyama does not like to have his characters or themes so dark like classic Broly, we can conclude that his version of Broly would be lighter.

I'd rather not get into the nitty-gritty about this film since I haven't seen it yet and I assume the same is true for most people here, but I find original Broly with his over the top "edginess" to be a 5 year old's idea of what is dark and cool. That makes him utter rubbish as a character for me. I find what Toriyama has done with this Broly is a much more mature, earnest and somber take with the character.

I guess I'm in the same boat since I haven't seen the movie yet but...

What's a better character arc in service of? Is it just so that Broly can be another anti-hero that can hang along Goku? will he just be another powerful saiyan that Goku gets to beat up so Toei can trot a fight between the two every chance they get?

[Marlowe89]

I guess those who don't care for Broly being an evil-destructive loving monstrosity in TOEI's version would prefer Toriyama's more sympathetic iteration.

I'm not a huge fan of OG Broly, but I think a lot of his appeal as a character goes beyond just being some personification of destruction. There's a nuanced, almost disturbingly realistic approach to his sadism that feels pretty firmly rooted in his backstory. His introduction also makes him out to be a fairly submissive person, which contrasts with his portrayal later on in M8 and effectively emphasizes how scary he is.

I don't think he's particularly deep or interesting, but there's a lot to be said for his presentation as a threatening antagonist. I'd say that's his most "unique" aspect in comparison to the rest of the franchise.

Again, though, nothing of value is lost when it comes to OG Bardock. His TV special is probably the single most overrated piece of material in all of Dragon Ball.

[emperior]

That’s it . I’d like the bastard and must be killed point combine with a cheelay with bad intentions and wrapped with them scaping to stay in the series ... if so .. i don’t know if he needs to stay ...
This series needs more bad guys that stay on the stage

I think Freeza around as a bad guy is enough, and he plans on getting along with Broly so the possibility is not entirely out of the window.

I guess I have to watch the movie , following spoilers I got that broly is not a bad guy ..
Merry Christmas everybody, hope you guys are having a good one

I’m sorry for the spoiler. That Broly is not bad was already said in the third trailer though, and you should probably take an hiatus from Kanzenshuu until you have seen the movie as there are literally threads with spoilers in the title.

[Miracles]

If we factor how Toriyama does not like to have his characters or themes so dark like classic Broly, we can conclude that his version of Broly would be lighter.

I'd rather not get into the nitty-gritty about this film since I haven't seen it yet and I assume the same is true for most people here, but I find original Broly with his over the top "edginess" to be a 5 year old's idea of what is dark and cool. That makes him utter rubbish as a character for me. I find what Toriyama has done with this Broly is a much more mature, earnest and somber take with the character.

I see. I liked Movie 8 Broly. I thought his presence portrayed the legend of the destructive loving Saiyan OK. I too am one of those who have not seen the new Broly movie yet. So I don't know how Toriyama's will be.
I am excited to see Toriyama's version.

I guess those who don't care for Broly being an evil-destructive loving monstrosity in TOEI's version would prefer Toriyama's more sympathetic iteration.

I'm not a huge fan of OG Broly, but I think a lot of his appeal as a character goes beyond just being some personification of destruction. There's a nuanced, almost disturbingly realistic approach to his sadism that feels pretty firmly rooted in his backstory. His introduction also makes him out to be a fairly submissive person, which contrasts with his portrayal later on in M8 and effectively emphasizes how scary he is.

I don't think he's particularly deep or interesting, but there's a lot to be said for his presentation as a threatening antagonist. I'd say that's his most "unique" aspect in comparison to the rest of the franchise.

Again, though, nothing of value is lost when it comes to OG Bardock. His TV special is probably the single most overrated piece of material in all of Dragon Ball.

Agree with the TV special of Bardock being highly overrated. I think you are also right about Movie 8 Broly's presence being depicted pretty well as an antagonist.

Merry Christmas everyone!!!

[prince212]

I think Freeza around as a bad guy is enough, and he plans on getting along with Broly so the possibility is not entirely out of the window.

I guess I have to watch the movie , following spoilers I got that broly is not a bad guy ..
Merry Christmas everybody, hope you guys are having a good one

I’m sorry for the spoiler. That Broly is not bad was already said in the third trailer though, and you should probably take an hiatus from Kanzenshuu until you have seen the movie as there are literally threads with spoilers in the title.

No problem , plus now we have different opinions that don’t help to shape my own opinion . I already ate Broly movie full spoilers like one moth ago I think. Looks like a movie for newbies , so I’ll go with my girl , hopefully this time she might like this series , I tried before and she didn’t , we watch tons of anime but dbs is not her thing ....