Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheSaiyanGod]

TOEI created new transformations above Blue, which were not Toriyama's ideas. That is, in the continuity of the anime Goku and Vegeta are more powerful than Toriyama originally imagined for them in ToP, so if we consider the anime in a comparison, they will be stronger than their versions of the movie.

Saying SSBE and SSB KK = Movie SSB is like saying that Toriyama imagined Broly 40x more powerful than SSB, and that does not make sense. If they were to adapt SSB KK and SSBE for the movie, then they would have to adpate the narrative also to fit these two forms

Yes, obviously they weren't Toriyama's ideas. So then that is exactly why when we convert from the movie continuity to the anime's, we assume they are relative in power. It makes absolutely no sense why they wouldn't use SSBE and SSBKK, so it simply wasn't in the anime continuity, but as far as AT was concerned, they were using their full-power. In the anime, their full-power translates to SSBKK/SSBE.

Toriyama didn't imagine Broly being 40x stronger,(not sure why you used 40?) but nor did he imagine them using SSBE/SSBKK. He didn't think of them using those forms against Jiren, and yet Jiren had to be scaled up appropriately because of their superior new forms. It's the same concept with Broly.

That is the point, we can not simply convert the movie to the continuity of the anime. Because in the anime, Goku and Vegeta in the ToP are stronger than Toriyama imagined. So the way events unfold is different.

After all, if Goku and Vegeta SSB were facing Broly in a hypothetical anime continuity, they could simply use Kaioken and SSBE to gain the upper hand (forcing Broly to use SSJ Full Power, which would change the narrative a bit but not its the end, which is Gogeta Vs Broly).

I said 40x because if we simply convert the two continuities, it would be like saying that Broly SSJ would be largely superior to SSB KK x20 and SSBE together, which does not seem to be the case.

[Miracles]

Oh yeah, that's fair. As far as Toriyama is concerned, Goku and Vegeta were using their full-power in the movie. In anime terms, I just treat it as though they were using SSBKK and SSBE respectively when comparing it to prior events.

A very fair viewpoint. More than likely if TOEI did a retelling Blue KK and Beyond blue would be used against Broly. So it really doesn't matter cause the result would still be the same. Regardless of those forms being used, due to narrative, Broly would still be way above Goku and Vegeta.

In Toriyama's head, SSB KK and SSBE does not exist. So he figured that SSJ and Broly would only be more powerful than the SSB forms of Goku and Vegeta.

If the film were adapted and TOEI wanted to include SSB KK and SSBE, then they would have to adapt the narrative to fit the two transformations in a way that does not affect the main narrative (Gogeta Vs Broly). But that does not mean that in a hypothetical scenario, we will not treat these forms as more powerful than Blue

The point is the narration. This is the first time a single enemy forced Goku and Vegeta to go against their custom and fuse. Do you know when the last time Goku even considered using fusion against one enemy? That's right, against the one to whom Broly was vaguely measured to, Beerus. That alone tells you that Broly is the strongest enemy Goku faced so far. No way is Goku going to face someone weaker than before in order to catch his future opponent in Beerus. Enemies have to be stronger than the last since in order for story to progress to catch Beerus in the final countdown.

First, we would have to consider Vegettto / Gogeta> MUI, and we have no statement to compare the power of the two.

And Goku can not just wait for the MUI to appear at any time, he used the most viable output at that time, I do not understand how that proves anything.
As I said, this current enemy > previous enemy thing is subjective, not an absolute rule

Spoiler:

The depiction of the battles kept on escalating, didn’t it? They kept increasing in scale, developing into the sorts of battles people typically associate with Dragon Ball.

I feel like they had to do that if they were going to escalate. As the enemies kept getting stronger, using Nyoibō or flying around on Kinto-un just wouldn’t cut it anymore, so the characters had to start flying themselves. When Tenshinhan first flew, I remember thinking “Hey, this is pretty useful.” (laughs) And when I thought of depicting ki visually in the manga, it really made things easier. Like with the Kamehameha and whatnot.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... interview/

Regardless of not having any statement comparing MUI and fusion, the narrative always has enemies escalating and characters stronger than the previous. To say a TOP MUI is stronger than a current Blue fusion is contradictory. It completely stunts Goku's growth as a fighter being the specific goal of our main caster.

Also, for the KK Blue and SSBE being stronger or not than Toriyama's version of Blue is not what I was talking about. I'm talking about that no matter what form is being used TOEI's version of the forms still has to be submissive to the narration. The plot had Broly way out of Goku and Vegeta's league. That will be the case whether Goku uses Blue KK or Vegeta assumes SSBE as well.

[Hulk10]

If Ikari was a Super Saiyan form like SSJ4 I wonder how powerful it would be.

[Sora Saiyan]

That is the point, we can not simply convert the movie to the continuity of the anime. Because in the anime, Goku and Vegeta in the ToP are stronger than Toriyama imagined. So the way events unfold is different.

After all, if Goku and Vegeta SSB were facing Broly in a hypothetical anime continuity, they could simply use Kaioken and SSBE to gain the upper hand (forcing Broly to use SSJ Full Power, which would change the narrative a bit but not its the end, which is Gogeta Vs Broly).

I said 40x because if we simply convert the two continuities, it would be like saying that Broly SSJ would be largely superior to SSB KK x20 and SSBE together, which does not seem to be the case.

If the anime returns and retells Broly don’t be the least bit surprised if both SSJBKK and SSJBE get whooped like regular Blue did here. Well that’s if the anime follows Toriyamas script in the slightest, which I would really hope it would. The only thing I expect to see changed is Brolys fight with Gogeta. The anime usually made the antagonists more menacing, and Broly’s already got the ever growing power plot point going for him, so I expect that to be blown up and I don’t expect to see him transform until the script calls for it.
I believe that Broly and Gogeta having a much closer skirmish is likely.
Did the anime ever reveal the main antagonists true strength prior to the script seemingly calling for it? (Both medium matching up)

Looks like we’ll have to wait and see, but even if it isn’t retold I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that Broly may have been stronger than Jiren. Let’s wait and see what happens.

This discussion will probably be best to have once we actually get to see the anime’s view on things, but like I said prior, I would hope that Toei would atleast try to follow Toriyamas script, especially with this one being much more fleshed out, there really isn’t room for doing shit willy nilly like with his bare bones scripts. Now instead of finding a way from A to B themselves, it seems to be spelled out for them.

[TheSaiyanGod]

A very fair viewpoint. More than likely if TOEI did a retelling Blue KK and Beyond blue would be used against Broly. So it really doesn't matter cause the result would still be the same. Regardless of those forms being used, due to narrative, Broly would still be way above Goku and Vegeta.

In Toriyama's head, SSB KK and SSBE does not exist. So he figured that SSJ and Broly would only be more powerful than the SSB forms of Goku and Vegeta.

If the film were adapted and TOEI wanted to include SSB KK and SSBE, then they would have to adapt the narrative to fit the two transformations in a way that does not affect the main narrative (Gogeta Vs Broly). But that does not mean that in a hypothetical scenario, we will not treat these forms as more powerful than Blue

The point is the narration. This is the first time a single enemy forced Goku and Vegeta to go against their custom and fuse. Do you know when the last time Goku even considered using fusion against one enemy? That's right, against the one to whom Broly was vaguely measured to, Beerus. That alone tells you that Broly is the strongest enemy Goku faced so far. No way is Goku going to face someone weaker than before in order to catch his future opponent in Beerus. Enemies have to be stronger than the last since in order for story to progress to catch Beerus in the final countdown.

First, we would have to consider Vegettto / Gogeta> MUI, and we have no statement to compare the power of the two.

And Goku can not just wait for the MUI to appear at any time, he used the most viable output at that time, I do not understand how that proves anything.
As I said, this current enemy > previous enemy thing is subjective, not an absolute rule

Spoiler:

The depiction of the battles kept on escalating, didn’t it? They kept increasing in scale, developing into the sorts of battles people typically associate with Dragon Ball.

I feel like they had to do that if they were going to escalate. As the enemies kept getting stronger, using Nyoibō or flying around on Kinto-un just wouldn’t cut it anymore, so the characters had to start flying themselves. When Tenshinhan first flew, I remember thinking “Hey, this is pretty useful.” (laughs) And when I thought of depicting ki visually in the manga, it really made things easier. Like with the Kamehameha and whatnot.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... interview/

Regardless of not having any statement comparing MUI and fusion, the narrative always has enemies escalating and characters stronger than the previous. To say a TOP MUI is stronger than a current Blue fusion is contradictory. It completely stunts Goku's growth as a fighter being the specific goal of our main caster.

Also, for the KK Blue and SSBE being stronger or not than Toriyama's version of Blue is not what I was talking about. I'm talking about that no matter what form is being used TOEI's version of the forms still has to be submissive to the narration. The plot had Broly way out of Goku and Vegeta's league. That will be the case whether Goku uses Blue KK or Vegeta assumes SSBE as well.

Beerus is the perfect example that this rule is not absolute. And it is not because it is an exception, if it happened once, it can happen again.

And in this movie we have an atypical case because Goku is not able to use his most powerful form freely, so he has to resort to fusion. I will not go into the question of who is stronger between Gogeta and MUI Goku (for me, it does not make much difference now because we have few statements to compare), but even if you consider that SSB Gogeta is stronger, this is not going to change anything in relation to Broly's power, because he could not even touch Gogeta.
The only statement within the film about Broly's power is Goku's talk about him probably being stronger than Beerus, and just that does not mean he's stronger than Jiren

Obviously, SSB KK and SSBE are much weaker than Broly's Full Power, the point here is about these two forms being stronger than SSJ Broly and I do not see any problem in that regard. Broly can be out of the Goku and Vegeta's league only with SSJ Full Power

That is the point, we can not simply convert the movie to the continuity of the anime. Because in the anime, Goku and Vegeta in the ToP are stronger than Toriyama imagined. So the way events unfold is different.

After all, if Goku and Vegeta SSB were facing Broly in a hypothetical anime continuity, they could simply use Kaioken and SSBE to gain the upper hand (forcing Broly to use SSJ Full Power, which would change the narrative a bit but not its the end, which is Gogeta Vs Broly).

I said 40x because if we simply convert the two continuities, it would be like saying that Broly SSJ would be largely superior to SSB KK x20 and SSBE together, which does not seem to be the case.

If the anime returns and retells Broly don’t be the least bit surprised if both SSJBKK and SSJBE get whooped like regular Blue did here. Well that’s if the anime follows Toriyamas script in the slightest, which I would really hope it would. The only thing I expect to see changed is Brolys fight with Gogeta. The anime usually made the antagonists more menacing, and Broly’s already got the ever growing power plot point going for him, so I expect that to be blown up and I don’t expect to see him transform until the script calls for it.
I believe that Broly and Gogeta having a much closer skirmish is likely.
Did the anime ever reveal the main antagonists true strength prior to the script seemingly calling for it? (Both medium matching up)

Looks like we’ll have to wait and see, but even if it isn’t retold I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that Broly may have been stronger than Jiren. Let’s wait and see what happens.

This discussion will probably be best to have once we actually get to see the anime’s view on things, but like I said prior, I would hope that Toei would atleast try to follow Toriyamas script, especially with this one being much more fleshed out, there really isn’t room for doing shit willy nilly like with his bare bones scripts. Now instead of finding a way from A to B themselves, it seems to be spelled out for them.

Particularly, I think it would be better for the narrative that Goku and Vegeta SSB fighting together would force Broly to use SSJ Full Power. At least, this form would not come out of nowhere without impact during the fight against Gogeta and would force the two Saiyans to merge too

And I still have doubts about a new anime now, and if it will adapt Broly's movie, but I would not be surprised if that happened

[PFM18]

They simply aren't Blue tier. Gohan realized that they had enhanced durability, and then he comments that he can use his full-power, and then he starts taking on both of them at once and doing very well, and he said the only reason he even got grabbed by one of them is because he let his guard down. Then, he goes on to crush one of their faces into the ground and perform well taking both of them on at once pretty well. He also tanked that mouth blast from the one Namekian with no issues whatsoever. And Gohan himself isn't even quite SSB level, considering that Toppo~SSB Vegeta, and Toppo easily tanked Gohan's KHH. And that was AFTER Gohan had broken his limits against Koicherator. S

So no, Piccolo did not take on SSB tier opponents.

Gohan didn't tank the blast. He needed to put up a defense. Saonel and Pirina are obviously weaker than him but not enough for Gohan to beat them easily.

Gohan can be weaker than Toppo and still be SSB tier. The tier is wide enough to allow that.

"He put up a defense"? What does that even mean? Everyone puts up a defense whenever they tank blasts. And Gohan didn't explicitly do anything different from anyone else who has ever tanked a blast. He simply tanked the blast because he is well above them. He comments that they can take his Full-power, and he easily handles both of them simultaneously. He clearly says he got caught off guard when they grabbed him, and it wasn't in any way related to them being close to him in power. He starts by going and smashing one of their heads into the ground. And this was BEFORE Gohan broke his limits according to Vegeta. Then, after breaking his limits, he shows himself incapable of damaging Toppo in any real manner.

Toppo>>Gohan(limits broken)>Gohan(pre-limits broken)>>Saonel and Pirina~Gohan(suppressed)

I know I'm repeating myself, but you didn't address anything I said. Piccolo most definitely, did not take on anyone close to SSB level. If Saonel and Pirina were SSB level, they would have been given more attention too.

TOEI created new transformations above Blue, which were not Toriyama's ideas. That is, in the continuity of the anime Goku and Vegeta are more powerful than Toriyama originally imagined for them in ToP, so if we consider the anime in a comparison, they will be stronger than their versions of the movie.

Saying SSBE and SSB KK = Movie SSB is like saying that Toriyama imagined Broly 40x more powerful than SSB, and that does not make sense. If they were to adapt SSB KK and SSBE for the movie, then they would have to adpate the narrative also to fit these two forms

Yes, obviously they weren't Toriyama's ideas. So then that is exactly why when we convert from the movie continuity to the anime's, we assume they are relative in power. It makes absolutely no sense why they wouldn't use SSBE and SSBKK, so it simply wasn't in the anime continuity, but as far as AT was concerned, they were using their full-power. In the anime, their full-power translates to SSBKK/SSBE.

Toriyama didn't imagine Broly being 40x stronger,(not sure why you used 40?) but nor did he imagine them using SSBE/SSBKK. He didn't think of them using those forms against Jiren, and yet Jiren had to be scaled up appropriately because of their superior new forms. It's the same concept with Broly.

That is the point, we can not simply convert the movie to the continuity of the anime. Because in the anime, Goku and Vegeta in the ToP are stronger than Toriyama imagined. So the way events unfold is different.

After all, if Goku and Vegeta SSB were facing Broly in a hypothetical anime continuity, they could simply use Kaioken and SSBE to gain the upper hand (forcing Broly to use SSJ Full Power, which would change the narrative a bit but not its the end, which is Gogeta Vs Broly).

I said 40x because if we simply convert the two continuities, it would be like saying that Broly SSJ would be largely superior to SSB KK x20 and SSBE together, which does not seem to be the case.

So then what do you propose? What's the alternative? Let me help you out, here are the alternatives:

1. Assuming that Goku and Vegeta decided against using SSBKK/SSBE for absolutely no reason whatsoever.
2. Not ever trying to scale Broly to the anime continuity.

We need a way to convert from the anime and movie continuity. And this is it.

What makes you think they could use SSBE and Kaioken would give them the upper hand? They would still get their ass kicked, because Gogeta is supposed to be the only one that can force him into Full-Power. That's the narrative premise there.

[Miracles]

In Toriyama's head, SSB KK and SSBE does not exist. So he figured that SSJ and Broly would only be more powerful than the SSB forms of Goku and Vegeta.

If the film were adapted and TOEI wanted to include SSB KK and SSBE, then they would have to adapt the narrative to fit the two transformations in a way that does not affect the main narrative (Gogeta Vs Broly). But that does not mean that in a hypothetical scenario, we will not treat these forms as more powerful than Blue



First, we would have to consider Vegettto / Gogeta> MUI, and we have no statement to compare the power of the two.

And Goku can not just wait for the MUI to appear at any time, he used the most viable output at that time, I do not understand how that proves anything.
As I said, this current enemy > previous enemy thing is subjective, not an absolute rule

Spoiler:

The depiction of the battles kept on escalating, didn’t it? They kept increasing in scale, developing into the sorts of battles people typically associate with Dragon Ball.

I feel like they had to do that if they were going to escalate. As the enemies kept getting stronger, using Nyoibō or flying around on Kinto-un just wouldn’t cut it anymore, so the characters had to start flying themselves. When Tenshinhan first flew, I remember thinking “Hey, this is pretty useful.” (laughs) And when I thought of depicting ki visually in the manga, it really made things easier. Like with the Kamehameha and whatnot.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... interview/

Regardless of not having any statement comparing MUI and fusion, the narrative always has enemies escalating and characters stronger than the previous. To say a TOP MUI is stronger than a current Blue fusion is contradictory. It completely stunts Goku's growth as a fighter being the specific goal of our main caster.

Also, for the KK Blue and SSBE being stronger or not than Toriyama's version of Blue is not what I was talking about. I'm talking about that no matter what form is being used TOEI's version of the forms still has to be submissive to the narration. The plot had Broly way out of Goku and Vegeta's league. That will be the case whether Goku uses Blue KK or Vegeta assumes SSBE as well.

Beerus is the perfect example that this rule is not absolute. And it is not because it is an exception, if it happened once, it can happen again.

And in this movie we have an atypical case because Goku is not able to use his most powerful form freely, so he has to resort to fusion. I will not go into the question of who is stronger between Gogeta and MUI Goku (for me, it does not make much difference now because we have few statements to compare), but even if you consider that SSB Gogeta is stronger, this is not going to change anything in relation to Broly's power, because he could not even touch Gogeta.
The only statement within the film about Broly's power is Goku's talk about him probably being stronger than Beerus, and just that does not mean he's stronger than Jiren

Obviously, SSB KK and SSBE are much weaker than Broly's Full Power, the point here is about these two forms being stronger than SSJ Broly and I do not see any problem in that regard. Broly can be out of the Goku and Vegeta's league only with SSJ Full Power.

To say SSBE and Blue KK is stronger than Broly's SSJ is just a guess not factual on your part. Especially when two Blue's together were no match for him. Also, using Beerus doesn't work cause he was only introduced to open Super, to be set up as a future final opponent for Goku. Toriyama's formula still works cause after setting up Goku's benchmark, the opponents after Freeza got stronger leading up to the strongest, Beerus. Since Broly was compared to Beerus, Goku's goalpost, the final boss, the strongest enemy, proves Broly is the greatest Goku has faced so far and thus stronger than Jiren.

[Hulk10]

I'm pretty sure the movie can be included in the anime. That's what the movie is about.

And I'd say that SSJB and SSJG being stronger than SSJ4 is just guesswork too since there are conflicting reports on it.

[ZombieVito]

"He put up a defense"? What does that even mean? Everyone puts up a defense whenever they tank blasts. And Gohan didn't explicitly do anything different from anyone else who has ever tanked a blast. He simply tanked the blast because he is well above them. He comments that they can take his Full-power, and he easily handles both of them simultaneously. He clearly says he got caught off guard when they grabbed him, and it wasn't in any way related to them being close to him in power. He starts by going and smashing one of their heads into the ground. And this was BEFORE Gohan broke his limits according to Vegeta. Then, after breaking his limits, he shows himself incapable of damaging Toppo in any real manner.

Toppo>>Gohan(limits broken)>Gohan(pre-limits broken)>>Saonel and Pirina~Gohan(suppressed)

I know I'm repeating myself, but you didn't address anything I said. Piccolo most definitely, did not take on anyone close to SSB level. If Saonel and Pirina were SSB level, they would have been given more attention too.

That's not tanking. He had to put a defense up to protect himself. If he didn't then he would have taken damage.

Cell taking 16 punch without even moving or Piccolo's Light Grenade is tanking.

Tanking = Putting 0 defense and not taking any damage from an attack.

And again, SSB level is too wide. Is Freeza from the RoF not SSB level?

[PFM18]

"He put up a defense"? What does that even mean? Everyone puts up a defense whenever they tank blasts. And Gohan didn't explicitly do anything different from anyone else who has ever tanked a blast. He simply tanked the blast because he is well above them. He comments that they can take his Full-power, and he easily handles both of them simultaneously. He clearly says he got caught off guard when they grabbed him, and it wasn't in any way related to them being close to him in power. He starts by going and smashing one of their heads into the ground. And this was BEFORE Gohan broke his limits according to Vegeta. Then, after breaking his limits, he shows himself incapable of damaging Toppo in any real manner.

Toppo>>Gohan(limits broken)>Gohan(pre-limits broken)>>Saonel and Pirina~Gohan(suppressed)

I know I'm repeating myself, but you didn't address anything I said. Piccolo most definitely, did not take on anyone close to SSB level. If Saonel and Pirina were SSB level, they would have been given more attention too.

That's not tanking. He had to put a defense up to protect himself. If he didn't then he would have taken damage.

Cell taking 16 punch without even moving or Piccolo's Light Grenade is tanking.

Tanking = Putting 0 defense and not taking any damage from an attack.

And again, SSB level is too wide. Is Freeza from the RoF not SSB level?

He didn't block it, he just stood there. He "tanked" it in every sense of the word. I don't see how exactly he "put up a defense" any more than any of the other aforementioned characters like Cell.

I guess RoF Freeza could be considered "SSB level" despite being considerably weaker than SSB's in the ToP. But I frankly don't see any reason to believe Saonel and Pirina are that strong. As soon as Gohan got serious, he started dominating them.

[ZombieVito]

He didn't block it, he just stood there. He "tanked" it in every sense of the word. I don't see how exactly he "put up a defense" any more than any of the other aforementioned characters like Cell.

I guess RoF Freeza could be considered "SSB level" despite being considerably weaker than SSB's in the ToP. But I frankly don't see any reason to believe Saonel and Pirina are that strong. As soon as Gohan got serious, he started dominating them.

Watch the scene again. He clearly put up a defense

That's very different than what:

Raditz did.
Freeza did.
Goku did.
Cell did.
Semi Cell did.

See what I'm getting at? Tanking is someone receiving an attack with 0 damage without doing anything. Saonel and Pirina were close enough to Gohan that he had to put up a defense. They are Blue level, just very low on it.

[PFM18]

He didn't block it, he just stood there. He "tanked" it in every sense of the word. I don't see how exactly he "put up a defense" any more than any of the other aforementioned characters like Cell.

I guess RoF Freeza could be considered "SSB level" despite being considerably weaker than SSB's in the ToP. But I frankly don't see any reason to believe Saonel and Pirina are that strong. As soon as Gohan got serious, he started dominating them.

Watch the scene again. He clearly put up a defense

That's very different than what:

Raditz did.
Freeza did.
Goku did.
Cell did.
Semi Cell did.

See what I'm getting at? Tanking is someone receiving an attack with 0 damage without doing anything. Saonel and Pirina were close enough to Gohan that he had to put up a defense. They are Blue level, just very low on it.

Ok, I get what you're saying now. I guess this doesn't fit the conventional definition of "tanked."

But still, they aren't Blue level for the plethora of reasons already given

[ZombieVito]

Ok, I get what you're saying now. I guess this doesn't fit the conventional definition of "tanked."

But still, they aren't Blue level for the plethora of reasons already given

Agree to disagree I guess.

[PFM18]

Ok, I get what you're saying now. I guess this doesn't fit the conventional definition of "tanked."

But still, they aren't Blue level for the plethora of reasons already given

Agree to disagree I guess.

You didn't actually address anything other than the "tanking" comment.

[HeroR]

The fusion one is an error no matter how you looked at it since he saw fusion in the manga Super too, so...

Vegeta knows of the Fusion Dance, he just didn't learn it since he reference it as the dance Goten and Trunks do. He also saw the Fusion Dance back in the Buu Saga from the Otherworld, so the Commeson Arc wasn't the first time he saw it. Heck, he saw the Fusion Dance in Battle of Gods, both movie and retellings.

Broly is way higher than Saonel and Pirina and even then, someone like Gohan had to be a meat shield. Even then, Broly can dodge the freaking thing. Either way, it isn't a story error, so much of 'this maybe could do this' statement.

Outside of the higher Blue forms, the movie does fit with the anime. Not sure how Shenron was accident since even the last movies Toriyama wrote Shenron granted two wishes.

I was actually talking about Gotenks only. He saw him and his clothes yet he doesn't know Gogeta is a fusion.

I meant that the Commeson arc is the most recent time he saw it and that arc is like a year before the movie. He should at least know the dance.

At the time Piccolo said this, Broly has just beaten SSG Goku so he isn't way higher than them. Even later on he was still weaker that Blue Goku before turning Super Saiyan. Piccolo saying this is out of character.

So you honestly think Toriyama went and saw episode 68 and worked out Shenron has 1 wish left?

And Super Saiyan God Goku is way higher than Piccolo. Piccolo can't even hurt base form Goku.

[ZombieVito]

And Super Saiyan God Goku is way higher than Piccolo. Piccolo can't even hurt base form Goku.

And yet he hurt Saonel and Pirina who are way higher than base Goku or SSG.

[HeroR]

And Super Saiyan God Goku is way higher than Piccolo. Piccolo can't even hurt base form Goku.

And yet he hurt Saonel and Pirina who are way higher than base Goku or SSG.

After charging his Special Beam Cannon for several seconds and Gohan acting as a meat shield. He even screwed up and fired too soon which nearly got him roasted.

They also not ‘way higher’ than Super Saiyan God Goku after the TOP. They were probably barely up to par with Super Saiyan God Goku even during the TOP since Gohan was handling both of them. What made them hang in there was their high endurance, which is why Gohan went Ulimate since they wouldn’t die.

[ZombieVito]

After charging his Special Beam Cannon for several seconds and Gohan acting as a meat shield. He even screwed up and fired too soon which nearly got him roasted.

They also not ‘way higher’ than Super Saiyan God Goku after the TOP. They were probably barely up to par with Super Saiyan God Goku even during the TOP since Gohan was handling both of them. What made them hang in there was their high endurance, which is why Gohan went Ulimate since they wouldn’t die.

They can't be that week.

Both of them can beat Gohan seeing as Piccolo needed to save him and Gohan also needed to put a defense for Pirina's attack.

Some serious underrating here.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Yes, obviously they weren't Toriyama's ideas. So then that is exactly why when we convert from the movie continuity to the anime's, we assume they are relative in power. It makes absolutely no sense why they wouldn't use SSBE and SSBKK, so it simply wasn't in the anime continuity, but as far as AT was concerned, they were using their full-power. In the anime, their full-power translates to SSBKK/SSBE.

Toriyama didn't imagine Broly being 40x stronger,(not sure why you used 40?) but nor did he imagine them using SSBE/SSBKK. He didn't think of them using those forms against Jiren, and yet Jiren had to be scaled up appropriately because of their superior new forms. It's the same concept with Broly.

That is the point, we can not simply convert the movie to the continuity of the anime. Because in the anime, Goku and Vegeta in the ToP are stronger than Toriyama imagined. So the way events unfold is different.

After all, if Goku and Vegeta SSB were facing Broly in a hypothetical anime continuity, they could simply use Kaioken and SSBE to gain the upper hand (forcing Broly to use SSJ Full Power, which would change the narrative a bit but not its the end, which is Gogeta Vs Broly).

I said 40x because if we simply convert the two continuities, it would be like saying that Broly SSJ would be largely superior to SSB KK x20 and SSBE together, which does not seem to be the case.

So then what do you propose? What's the alternative? Let me help you out, here are the alternatives:

1. Assuming that Goku and Vegeta decided against using SSBKK/SSBE for absolutely no reason whatsoever.
2. Not ever trying to scale Broly to the anime continuity.

We need a way to convert from the anime and movie continuity. And this is it.

What makes you think they could use SSBE and Kaioken would give them the upper hand? They would still get their ass kicked, because Gogeta is supposed to be the only one that can force him into Full-Power. That's the narrative premise there.

I consider anime as a different continuity of the movie (which in a way should be contradictory, after all the movie supposedly follows the anime and uses elements of it, but apparently Toriyama does not think so), and that is exactly why I compare SSB KK and SSBE with SSJ Broly , because they are of a continuity or vision in which Goku and Vegeta are stronger and we do not have to convert anything. is like comparing characters from different media. The difference is that the two media are supposedly canonical, so it's not like comparing GT and DBS characters for example.

And I know that even SSB KK and SSBE are far from Broly's full power, I'm just saying that these two forms are stronger than the Broly SSJ (normal). In the script Gogeta forces Broly to use SSJ Full Power, but we're not fitting SSB KK and SSBE in the movie, we're just comparing the power that Broly showed with the power these two transformations showed. Unless the Broly movie is adapted for anime and these two transformations are used, we do not have to convert the movie to anime just to compare the power of the characters

Spoiler:

The depiction of the battles kept on escalating, didn’t it? They kept increasing in scale, developing into the sorts of battles people typically associate with Dragon Ball.

I feel like they had to do that if they were going to escalate. As the enemies kept getting stronger, using Nyoibō or flying around on Kinto-un just wouldn’t cut it anymore, so the characters had to start flying themselves. When Tenshinhan first flew, I remember thinking “Hey, this is pretty useful.” (laughs) And when I thought of depicting ki visually in the manga, it really made things easier. Like with the Kamehameha and whatnot.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... interview/

Regardless of not having any statement comparing MUI and fusion, the narrative always has enemies escalating and characters stronger than the previous. To say a TOP MUI is stronger than a current Blue fusion is contradictory. It completely stunts Goku's growth as a fighter being the specific goal of our main caster.

Also, for the KK Blue and SSBE being stronger or not than Toriyama's version of Blue is not what I was talking about. I'm talking about that no matter what form is being used TOEI's version of the forms still has to be submissive to the narration. The plot had Broly way out of Goku and Vegeta's league. That will be the case whether Goku uses Blue KK or Vegeta assumes SSBE as well.

Beerus is the perfect example that this rule is not absolute. And it is not because it is an exception, if it happened once, it can happen again.

And in this movie we have an atypical case because Goku is not able to use his most powerful form freely, so he has to resort to fusion. I will not go into the question of who is stronger between Gogeta and MUI Goku (for me, it does not make much difference now because we have few statements to compare), but even if you consider that SSB Gogeta is stronger, this is not going to change anything in relation to Broly's power, because he could not even touch Gogeta.
The only statement within the film about Broly's power is Goku's talk about him probably being stronger than Beerus, and just that does not mean he's stronger than Jiren

Obviously, SSB KK and SSBE are much weaker than Broly's Full Power, the point here is about these two forms being stronger than SSJ Broly and I do not see any problem in that regard. Broly can be out of the Goku and Vegeta's league only with SSJ Full Power.

To say SSBE and Blue KK is stronger than Broly's SSJ is just a guess not factual on your part. Especially when two Blue's together were no match for him. Also, using Beerus doesn't work cause he was only introduced to open Super, to be set up as a future final opponent for Goku. Toriyama's formula still works cause after setting up Goku's benchmark, the opponents after Freeza got stronger leading up to the strongest, Beerus. Since Broly was compared to Beerus, Goku's goalpost, the final boss, the strongest enemy, proves Broly is the greatest Goku has faced so far and thus stronger than Jiren.

Obviously, SSB KK and SSBE being stronger than SSJ Broly is just my opinion, but I do not see anything that contradicts this. Two Blue's were no match for Broly, but SSB KK can be 20x stronger than Blue, the same for SSBE (which might be even stronger considering the power up of the Toppo fight), and Broly did not in any way show be 20x stronger than Blue (he beat Golden Freeza for an hour and did not even deactivate his transformation).

And if we use the multipliers in the movie, Broly would not be 20x stronger either.

Broly was compared to Beerus, but Beerus is not the strongest enemy. Jiren was declared by Whis to be above a GoD who is stronger than Beerus. If Goku did not compare Broly to the stronger enemy, then he is not the strongest (and Goku was not even sure if Broly was stronger than Beerus)

[Miracles]

Beerus is the perfect example that this rule is not absolute. And it is not because it is an exception, if it happened once, it can happen again.

And in this movie we have an atypical case because Goku is not able to use his most powerful form freely, so he has to resort to fusion. I will not go into the question of who is stronger between Gogeta and MUI Goku (for me, it does not make much difference now because we have few statements to compare), but even if you consider that SSB Gogeta is stronger, this is not going to change anything in relation to Broly's power, because he could not even touch Gogeta.
The only statement within the film about Broly's power is Goku's talk about him probably being stronger than Beerus, and just that does not mean he's stronger than Jiren

Obviously, SSB KK and SSBE are much weaker than Broly's Full Power, the point here is about these two forms being stronger than SSJ Broly and I do not see any problem in that regard. Broly can be out of the Goku and Vegeta's league only with SSJ Full Power.

To say SSBE and Blue KK is stronger than Broly's SSJ is just a guess not factual on your part. Especially when two Blue's together were no match for him. Also, using Beerus doesn't work cause he was only introduced to open Super, to be set up as a future final opponent for Goku. Toriyama's formula still works cause after setting up Goku's benchmark, the opponents after Freeza got stronger leading up to the strongest, Beerus. Since Broly was compared to Beerus, Goku's goalpost, the final boss, the strongest enemy, proves Broly is the greatest Goku has faced so far and thus stronger than Jiren.

Obviously, SSB KK and SSBE being stronger than SSJ Broly is just my opinion, but I do not see anything that contradicts this. Two Blue's were no match for Broly, but SSB KK can be 20x stronger than Blue, the same for SSBE (which might be even stronger considering the power up of the Toppo fight), and Broly did not in any way show be 20x stronger than Blue (he beat Golden Freeza for an hour and did not even deactivate his transformation).

And if we use the multipliers in the movie, Broly would not be 20x stronger either.

Broly was compared to Beerus, but Beerus is not the strongest enemy. Jiren was declared by Whis to be above a GoD who is stronger than Beerus. If Goku did not compare Broly to the stronger enemy, then he is not the strongest (and Goku was not even sure if Broly was stronger than Beerus)

Whis never said Belmond was stronger than Beerus. That's never in the story. Not to mention Beerus said he never lost in combat, only in arm wrestling but never to Belmond. The conversation was not specific. That too is a fan delusion. Beerus still is the strongest by default since he is the benchmark [AKA Final obstacle]. This is proven even more when Goku was so impressed by Broly that he even acknowledged his Saiyan heritage and called himself Kakarrot.

Also, saying SSBE and KK Blue is stronger than Toriyama's Blue just cause of a multiplier in TOEI's story does not mean it is stronger than Toriyama's Blue version which was never defined. Remember in Toriyama's mind Blue is so strong that it could tango with merged Zamas. So it is guesswork.