Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[BWri]

In my mind, Jiren, Beerus and Broly are all roughly comparable in strength, with no clear winner. I get the feeling that Beerus is the best martial artist though, especially considering he has elements of UI in the manga.

That's sorta head canon though. They definitely haven't made it clear in any way, and I don't get the feeling that Toriyama and co have even decided on this.

Yeah, it's fairly vague. My stance its that they haven't explicitly stated that Beerus has been surpassed. Jiren surpassed Belmod, but manga Beerus is displayed on a whole different level than the other GoDs. At the start of the fight they all even attack him at once. That to me indicates a hierarchy of power within the GoD where Beerus and possibly the mouse stand at the top. In the anime, Beerus never concedes that Jiren or Goku are stronger, same thing he did in the U6 tourney arc when people (reasonably) assumed SSBKK had surpassed him.

Because of this lack of confirmation and because Beerus has thus far been Goku's measuring stick, I am certain that Beerus is still much stronger than Jiren and Broly and if he ever perfects UI, he will blow them out of the water entirely.

They definitely haven't made it clear in any way, and I don't get the feeling that Toriyama and co have even decided on this.

Now, i want to focus specifically on this statement. I think they know exactly what they are doing by not outright telling us who is stronger. They are creating a mystery to keep fans intrigued for upcoming content. From what I know of the Broly movie, Beerus appears but doesn't partake in the fight. That's a pro wrestling strategy when it comes to booking dream matches. You keep two stars that people are anticipating a big fight from away from each other as much as possible. This keeps the mystique on the 2 wrestlers and builds even more anticipation.

There's also the pro wrestling concept of "protecting" a wrestler, which means to keep them looking strong so as not to devalue them. Wrestling promotions protect wrestlers to ensure highly anticipated matches down the line, because if you let someone who's popular get defeated too much or someone with a huge winning streak or captivating mystique get defeated, it makes them look weak and lessens the average viewers interest in that wrestler.

They are doing this with Beerus to a T in every form of media so far by simply not outright saying or having him say, "Wow, that Jiren/Broly is stronger than me." "I should start my training again to keep up with these monsters". He is the measuring stick and its not until Goku defeats him that he'll be relegated to "just another strong fighter".

is there any evidence pointing towards Beerus being stronger than Jiren/Broly?

I think the problem is there's no evidence to show that Jiren/Broly are stronger than Beerus, at least nothing that compels me to say so.

[BWri]

is there any evidence pointing towards Beerus being stronger than Jiren/Broly?

It’s actually the other way around. Is there any hard evidence that Jiren and Broly are stronger than Universe 7’s God of Destruction, Lord Beerus??!

So far, i don’t see any. We only get a couple of very vague statements. Far too vague to determine any real answer. For now, it seems Beerus is still on top. He needs to be, until the inevitable rematch between Beerus and a fully mastered UI Goku. That’s (presumably) why his strength continuously gets retconned in order to stay ahead of Goku. The manga also hinted at their legendary rematch. Saying Goku would eventually become the mighty rival Beerus had dreamed of. Everything seems to be leading up to that historic moment. Whenever that happens. It might take a couple of Arcs though,

Pretty much what I'm thinking. They might even pull a "Beerus has been training offscreen" card, which he might admit in his next fight with Goku making it an UI vs UI fight.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Yes it has. It was established that Beerus is Goku's benchmark. Every opponent Goku has faced was never stated to be stronger than Beerus. Nothing usurps Beerus awaiting Goku at the top of the mountain.

Well, according to Whis, no.

Spoiler:

That has nothing to do with Beerus. That is outright talking Jiren being above Belmond.

Rumors spoke of a human being stronger than a GoD, and that GoD was stronger than Beerus. Whis confirmed that these rumors were true in the ToP.

Spoiler:

And even ignoring this speech, Jiren is still declared to be on the same level as the GoDs and at the end of the ToP he broke his limits and got even stronger

In my mind, Jiren, Beerus and Broly are all roughly comparable in strength, with no clear winner. I get the feeling that Beerus is the best martial artist though, especially considering he has elements of UI in the manga.

That's sorta head canon though. They definitely haven't made it clear in any way, and I don't get the feeling that Toriyama and co have even decided on this.

Yeah, it's fairly vague. My stance its that they haven't explicitly stated that Beerus has been surpassed. Jiren surpassed Belmod, but manga Beerus is displayed on a whole different level than the other GoDs. At the start of the fight they all even attack him at once. That to me indicates a hierarchy of power within the GoD where Beerus and possibly the mouse stand at the top. In the anime, Beerus never concedes that Jiren or Goku are stronger, same thing he did in the U6 tourney arc when people (reasonably) assumed SSBKK had surpassed him.

The difference is that we now have explicit statements about Jiren overcoming Beerus (whereas in the case of SSB KK it was just an assumption of some people who were still based on information from the film or who did not find Beerus much stronger than SSB). Of course, all this can change and they can simply say that in fact Beerus was stronger than all and just hid their power, but so far Jiren is definitely superior.

In the manga, Beerus is not a "totally different" level of the other GoDs, he is trapped by Belmod's techniques, and at the end of the fight we see him hurt, as well as all the other GoDs. It only bypassed the attacks of some GoDs in the beginning (trying to use the UI), but failed

[Miracles]

Well, according to Whis, no.

Spoiler:

That has nothing to do with Beerus. That is outright talking Jiren being above Belmond.

Rumors spoke of a human being stronger than a GoD, and that GoD was stronger than Beerus. Whis confirmed that these rumors were true in the ToP.

Spoiler:

And even ignoring this speech, Jiren is still declared to be on the same level as the GoDs and at the end of the ToP he broke his limits and got even stronger

The only thing that was confirmed in that image was Jiren being stronger than his god. Nothing confirmed about Beerus.
Beerus debunked Whis saying he never lost in combat, only in arm wrestling, in his career.

[TheSaiyanGod]

That has nothing to do with Beerus. That is outright talking Jiren being above Belmond.

Rumors spoke of a human being stronger than a GoD, and that GoD was stronger than Beerus. Whis confirmed that these rumors were true in the ToP.

Spoiler:

And even ignoring this speech, Jiren is still declared to be on the same level as the GoDs and at the end of the ToP he broke his limits and got even stronger

The only thing that was confirmed in that image was Jiren being stronger than his god. Nothing confirmed about Beerus.
Beerus debunked Whis saying he never lost in combat, only in arm wrestling, in his career.

If Beerus lost in an arm wrestling, then that means that in terms of physical strength, he is weaker. And Jiren is even stronger than this GoD, according to Whis.

Even if you want to consider just the talk that Jiren is on the same level as a GoD (in this case, speech is generalizing all GoDs, as if Jiren were in the same realm of power), he got much stronger then he overcame this level (he was able to beat MUI for a while)

[Miracles]

Rumors spoke of a human being stronger than a GoD, and that GoD was stronger than Beerus. Whis confirmed that these rumors were true in the ToP.

Spoiler:

And even ignoring this speech, Jiren is still declared to be on the same level as the GoDs and at the end of the ToP he broke his limits and got even stronger

The only thing that was confirmed in that image was Jiren being stronger than his god. Nothing confirmed about Beerus.
Beerus debunked Whis saying he never lost in combat, only in arm wrestling, in his career.

If Beerus lost in an arm wrestling, then that means that in terms of physical strength, he is weaker. And Jiren is even stronger than this GoD, according to Whis.

Even if you want to consider just the talk that Jiren is on the same level as a GoD (in this case, speech is generalizing all GoDs, as if Jiren were in the same realm of power), he got much stronger then he overcame this level (he was able to beat MUI for a while)

Doesn't matter if Jiren got stronger during his fight with UI Goku. His plot didn't change. He was still only stronger than Belmond. Never stated to be stronger than anyone else.

Also, Beerus losing in arm wrestling does not mean he is physically weaker. Hence why Beerus clarified what he lost in. Combat is where strength is exemplified in Dragonball and Beerus let it be clearly known. You saying he is physically weaker through arm wrestling totally contradicts the dialogue. BTW, Beerus didn't say to whom he lost in arm wrestling cause the speech was not specific between he and Whis. The point is, no one confirmed Beerus being weaker than anyone.

[BWri]

The difference is that we now have explicit statements about Jiren overcoming Beerus (whereas in the case of SSB KK it was just an assumption of some people who were still based on information from the film or who did not find Beerus much stronger than SSB).

I'd say it is nearly the exact same situation. Nothing explicit comes to mind regarding statements proving Jiren is stronger than Beerus. We have some comparisons to side characters whose strength we haven't completely gauged, that's all. Belmod is (predictably) a wild card in all this.

Of course, all this can change and they can simply say that in fact Beerus was stronger than all and just hid their power, but so far Jiren is definitely superior.

Definitely is a strong word as there are no definitive statements that Jiren is stronger than Beerus. I respect if that's your opinion though, as its all we have at this point.

In the manga, Beerus is not a "totally different" level of the other GoDs, he is trapped by Belmod's techniques, and at the end of the fight we see him hurt, as well as all the other GoDs. It only bypassed the attacks of some GoDs in the beginning (trying to use the UI), but failed

Beerus basically clowned (no pun intended) every GoD he fought in the exhibition. The fact that it started as all vs. one is a good indicator of his greater level of skill and power. And in the end, only he and the mouse were the last two standing. Beerus didn't seem to have much trouble with Belmod at all and his injuries were much less extreme than everyone elses seeing as how he had the endurance to last until the end.

This is controversial, but I also think there are less overall tiers of power in the manga compared to the anime, so serious Beerus' feat of utterly decimating CSSB Vegeta before the ToP is a good indicator of how he'd stack up to Jiren, as Jiren had a decent fight with the Vegetable while the Vegetable was somewhat fatigued after his Toppo fight. Vegetable did increase in power during the ToP (Jiren stated as much), but there's no indicator, no statement that Vegetable was even close to the Beerus that completely shut him down only a short time prior (I think it was only a few days) and even if he got 3x as strong he'd still be lacking compared to the serious Beerus he fought. Jiren took some time and more than a few blows to put down Vegeta temporarily while serious Beerus put Vegeta down for some time with a single blow.

Compare the "Don't get cocky" moment from the Beerus v. Vegeta fight to Jiren's "Don't think for a second that you can defeat me," moment. In both he stands no chance, but he's way more outclassed in one compared to the other.

[Hugo Boss]

If Beerus lost in an arm wrestling, then that means that in terms of physical strength, he is weaker. And Jiren is even stronger than this GoD, according to Whis.

That’s not totally true. Arm wrestling mix posture, technique and muscle strength and there are different set of rules that can be applied. Depending on the circumstances, it’s possible that Beerus lost to a weaker god.

By the way, I think someone on the anime or Toyotaro messed up this bit. The god who defeated Beerus in this game ended up being two different persons in each version. I think originally Jiren was supposed to be stronger than Vermoud while Quitela was the one who beat Beerus, due to that cat-rat joke.

[wolflonnie]

But then why introduce the arm wrestling tidbit if it's insignificant? No, they wanted to state, but not too loudly or explicitly: "hey guys, look, that Jiren dude might be stronger than Beerus!"
Keyword might. Neither Toei, Toriyama nor Toyotaro made up their mind if Beerus should be finally weaker than Jiren/Broly/etc. so they just throw in these vague statements.
To me, Jiren, Beerus, Broly and Vegetto (Zamasu arc) are all relative to each other. UI Goku and SSB Gogeta (Broly movie) are above them.

One thing is certain. The day we'll get a clear confirmation if Beerus has been surpassed is near, the more DBS keeps going on.
Me, I feel nothing but bore and annoyance toward the fact that Beerus is still a benchmark.
I honestly even started to dislike the very character because of this.

[Lukmendes]

That’s not totally true. Arm wrestling mix posture, technique and muscle strength and there are different set of rules that can be applied. Depending on the circumstances, it’s possible that Beerus lost to a weaker god.

By the way, I think someone on the anime or Toyotaro messed up this bit. The god who defeated Beerus in this game ended up being two different persons in each version. I think originally Jiren was supposed to be stronger than Vermoud while Quitela was the one who beat Beerus, due to that cat-rat joke.

I think Toriyama just made a note saying something like "Oh btw, one of the other gods of destruction beat Beerus in an arm wrestling match" and left it at that, with no story importance whatsoever, so anime team decided to connect it with Belmond, Toyotaro decided to give it to another random god lol.

[TheSaiyanGod]

The only thing that was confirmed in that image was Jiren being stronger than his god. Nothing confirmed about Beerus.
Beerus debunked Whis saying he never lost in combat, only in arm wrestling, in his career.

If Beerus lost in an arm wrestling, then that means that in terms of physical strength, he is weaker. And Jiren is even stronger than this GoD, according to Whis.

Even if you want to consider just the talk that Jiren is on the same level as a GoD (in this case, speech is generalizing all GoDs, as if Jiren were in the same realm of power), he got much stronger then he overcame this level (he was able to beat MUI for a while)

Doesn't matter if Jiren got stronger during his fight with UI Goku. His plot didn't change. He was still only stronger than Belmond. Never stated to be stronger than anyone else.

Also, Beerus losing in arm wrestling does not mean he is physically weaker. Hence why Beerus clarified what he lost in. Combat is where strength is exemplified in Dragonball and Beerus let it be clearly known. You saying he is physically weaker through arm wrestling totally contradicts the dialogue. BTW, Beerus didn't say to whom he lost in arm wrestling cause the speech was not specific between he and Whis. The point is, no one confirmed Beerus being weaker than anyone.

In the anime, Jiren was never specified to be stronger only than Belmod. In addition to Whis confirming that Jiren was above a GoD (who was above Beerus or at least at the same level, if you want to consider arm wrestling), we also have a talk about him being on the same level as the GoDs (as I said , this phrase is generalizing all GoDs, you can not say that Beerus is simply much stronger than all). So, FP Jiren has at least the same level of Beerus, and after breaking his limits he got much stronger (overcoming MUI Goku), and this strongly indicates that he overcame Beerus.

We have several statements that indicate that Jiren overcame the GoDs in the anime, so I do not see why it is absurd to consider him to be stronger than Beerus.

The difference is that we now have explicit statements about Jiren overcoming Beerus (whereas in the case of SSB KK it was just an assumption of some people who were still based on information from the film or who did not find Beerus much stronger than SSB).

I'd say it is nearly the exact same situation. Nothing explicit comes to mind regarding statements proving Jiren is stronger than Beerus. We have some comparisons to side characters whose strength we haven't completely gauged, that's all. Belmod is (predictably) a wild card in all this.

Of course, all this can change and they can simply say that in fact Beerus was stronger than all and just hid their power, but so far Jiren is definitely superior.

Definitely is a strong word as there are no definitive statements that Jiren is stronger than Beerus. I respect if that's your opinion though, as its all we have at this point.

In the manga, Beerus is not a "totally different" level of the other GoDs, he is trapped by Belmod's techniques, and at the end of the fight we see him hurt, as well as all the other GoDs. It only bypassed the attacks of some GoDs in the beginning (trying to use the UI), but failed

Beerus basically clowned (no pun intended) every GoD he fought in the exhibition. The fact that it started as all vs. one is a good indicator of his greater level of skill and power. And in the end, only he and the mouse were the last two standing. Beerus didn't seem to have much trouble with Belmod at all and his injuries were much less extreme than everyone elses seeing as how he had the endurance to last until the end.

This is controversial, but I also think there are less overall tiers of power in the manga compared to the anime, so serious Beerus' feat of utterly decimating CSSB Vegeta before the ToP is a good indicator of how he'd stack up to Jiren, as Jiren had a decent fight with the Vegetable while the Vegetable was somewhat fatigued after his Toppo fight. Vegetable did increase in power during the ToP (Jiren stated as much), but there's no indicator, no statement that Vegetable was even close to the Beerus that completely shut him down only a short time prior (I think it was only a few days) and even if he got 3x as strong he'd still be lacking compared to the serious Beerus he fought. Jiren took some time and more than a few blows to put down Vegeta temporarily while serious Beerus put Vegeta down for some time with a single blow.

Compare the "Don't get cocky" moment from the Beerus v. Vegeta fight to Jiren's "Don't think for a second that you can defeat me," moment. In both he stands no chance, but he's way more outclassed in one compared to the other.

It's not just my opinion, we have statements from probably one of the most reliable characters in DB (Whis), indicating that Jiren is at the same level as a GoD (generalizing, considering all GoDs and not putting Beerus on a level above all of them ). And that was before Jiren had a considerable power up, which further reinforces these claims.

Beerus was only trying to use the UI, so he was able to deflect the blows of various GoDs, but none of the GoDs attacked at the same time (basically one attacked, and then the other attacked), and yet Beerus failed to deflect all. He has never faced several GoDs at once, diverting and hitting punches. And when he was imprisoned by Belmod, Liquir was the only one who escaped (thereby releasing all other GoDs). At the end of the fight, Belmod was not injured and was smiling

I do not know why you're using Vegeta in this comparison. CSSB Vegeta never faced Jiren, only Goku (and if you consider that Goku = Vegeta, then the Kamehameha of a CSSB Goku did not even scratch Jiren).

Vegeta used a kind of Evolved CSSB, and according to Jiren, he was above all he had faced before (even that "CSSB Kaioken" that Goku used in ToP), except for Goku's UI, that is, Vegeta was far above its version that was defeated by Beerus before the ToP. And even so, Jiren when increased his power easily defeated him, so I do not see why this proves anything in the comparison between Beerus and Jiren

[Miracles]

If Beerus lost in an arm wrestling, then that means that in terms of physical strength, he is weaker. And Jiren is even stronger than this GoD, according to Whis.

Even if you want to consider just the talk that Jiren is on the same level as a GoD (in this case, speech is generalizing all GoDs, as if Jiren were in the same realm of power), he got much stronger then he overcame this level (he was able to beat MUI for a while)

Doesn't matter if Jiren got stronger during his fight with UI Goku. His plot didn't change. He was still only stronger than Belmond. Never stated to be stronger than anyone else.

Also, Beerus losing in arm wrestling does not mean he is physically weaker. Hence why Beerus clarified what he lost in. Combat is where strength is exemplified in Dragonball and Beerus let it be clearly known. You saying he is physically weaker through arm wrestling totally contradicts the dialogue. BTW, Beerus didn't say to whom he lost in arm wrestling cause the speech was not specific between he and Whis. The point is, no one confirmed Beerus being weaker than anyone.

In the anime, Jiren was never specified to be stronger only than Belmod. In addition to Whis confirming that Jiren was above a GoD (who was above Beerus or at least at the same level, if you want to consider arm wrestling), we also have a talk about him being on the same level as the GoDs (as I said , this phrase is generalizing all GoDs, you can not say that Beerus is simply much stronger than all). So, FP Jiren has at least the same level of Beerus, and after breaking his limits he got much stronger (overcoming MUI Goku), and this strongly indicates that he overcame Beerus.

We have several statements that indicate that Jiren overcame the GoDs in the anime, so I do not see why it is absurd to consider him to be stronger than Beerus.

You are using headcannon, Jiren was outright only specified to be stronger than his god. Then Whis confirmed ONLY this "rumor" in the TOP. Jiren or Goku was never confirmed to be above the rest of the gods by Whis. This fact is even proven more so when the current stronger opponent is still compared to Beerus with doubts in the Broly arc. You are inputting your own desires in the story and then trying to connect the dots yourself and concluding for the plot. Which causes you to yet again contradict Dragonballs narration laws about the scale escalating each arc in order for Goku to get stronger as the story goes on.

[Zamasu55]

Whis clearly states that Jiren's surpassed the Hakaishins in episode 109. And Goku says that Broly is probably stronger than Beerus. What more evidence do you need?
Hell, even God Toppo was on Beerus' level, according to Belmod.

[Miracles]

Whis clearly states that Jiren's surpassed the Hakaishins in episode 109. And Goku says that Broly is probably stronger than Beerus. What more evidence do you need?
Hell, even God Toppo was on Beerus' level, according to Belmod.

Lets see, nowhere did it state that god Toppo was on Beerus level. Being like a god of destruction does not mean equal in power or around Beerus. Naturally, power varies among the gods...

You say: "Whis clearly states that Jiren's surpassed the Hakaishins in episode 109." But...

Episode 110 states:...

PERHAPS surpassed it. So it was only confirmed that Jiren surpassed Belmond. BTW, it's the same case with the Broly statement concerning Beerus...A statement contrary to fact but made with uncertainty.
It doesn't prove Broly is stronger than Beerus cause it isn't saying such a thing. Just like it never said Jiren surpassed all gods, that is nothing more than a fan delusion.

[Hulk10]

Yeah I remember Whis saying that about Jiren.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Doesn't matter if Jiren got stronger during his fight with UI Goku. His plot didn't change. He was still only stronger than Belmond. Never stated to be stronger than anyone else.

Also, Beerus losing in arm wrestling does not mean he is physically weaker. Hence why Beerus clarified what he lost in. Combat is where strength is exemplified in Dragonball and Beerus let it be clearly known. You saying he is physically weaker through arm wrestling totally contradicts the dialogue. BTW, Beerus didn't say to whom he lost in arm wrestling cause the speech was not specific between he and Whis. The point is, no one confirmed Beerus being weaker than anyone.

In the anime, Jiren was never specified to be stronger only than Belmod. In addition to Whis confirming that Jiren was above a GoD (who was above Beerus or at least at the same level, if you want to consider arm wrestling), we also have a talk about him being on the same level as the GoDs (as I said , this phrase is generalizing all GoDs, you can not say that Beerus is simply much stronger than all). So, FP Jiren has at least the same level of Beerus, and after breaking his limits he got much stronger (overcoming MUI Goku), and this strongly indicates that he overcame Beerus.

We have several statements that indicate that Jiren overcame the GoDs in the anime, so I do not see why it is absurd to consider him to be stronger than Beerus.

You are using headcannon, Jiren was outright only specified to be stronger than his god. Then Whis confirmed ONLY this "rumor" in the TOP. Jiren or Goku was never confirmed to be above the rest of the gods by Whis. This fact is even proven more so when the current stronger opponent is still compared to Beerus with doubts in the Broly arc. You are inputting your own desires in the story and then trying to connect the dots yourself and concluding for the plot. Which causes you to yet again contradict Dragonballs narration laws about the scale escalating each arc in order for Goku to get stronger as the story goes on.

No, Whis never said that Jiren is only stronger than the GoD of his universe in the anime (this happens only in the manga). He says that Jiren is on the same level as a GoD, maybe stronger (he does not say that Jiren is stronger than '' his '' GoD, he just says '' a GoD, '' generalizing the entire GoD class) . That is, Beerus is included. Jiren has at least the same level of these GoDs and at the end of ToP it gets more powerful. So I do not see why assuming he not overcame the GoDs

[Miracles]

In the anime, Jiren was never specified to be stronger only than Belmod. In addition to Whis confirming that Jiren was above a GoD (who was above Beerus or at least at the same level, if you want to consider arm wrestling), we also have a talk about him being on the same level as the GoDs (as I said , this phrase is generalizing all GoDs, you can not say that Beerus is simply much stronger than all). So, FP Jiren has at least the same level of Beerus, and after breaking his limits he got much stronger (overcoming MUI Goku), and this strongly indicates that he overcame Beerus.

We have several statements that indicate that Jiren overcame the GoDs in the anime, so I do not see why it is absurd to consider him to be stronger than Beerus.

You are using headcannon, Jiren was outright only specified to be stronger than his god. Then Whis confirmed ONLY this "rumor" in the TOP. Jiren or Goku was never confirmed to be above the rest of the gods by Whis. This fact is even proven more so when the current stronger opponent is still compared to Beerus with doubts in the Broly arc. You are inputting your own desires in the story and then trying to connect the dots yourself and concluding for the plot. Which causes you to yet again contradict Dragonballs narration laws about the scale escalating each arc in order for Goku to get stronger as the story goes on.

No, Whis never said that Jiren is only stronger than the GoD of his universe in the anime (this happens only in the manga). He says that Jiren is on the same level as a GoD, maybe stronger (he does not say that Jiren is stronger than '' his '' GoD, he just says '' a GoD, '' generalizing the entire GoD class) . That is, Beerus is included. Jiren has at least the same level of these GoDs and at the end of ToP it gets more powerful. So I do not see why assuming he not overcame the GoDs

Everything you stated is wrong...

https://imgur.com/vidgif/video?url=http ... vrNHKBp098

Whis just confirmed in the TOP that the "rumor" about A motal being stronger than A god is Jiren and Belmond in that very instance. He just matched the Rumor being true about two people after watching Jiren and Belmond. Nothing about god'S in general. You should reread the story my man.

[Zamasu55]

Whis clearly states that Jiren's surpassed the Hakaishins in episode 109. And Goku says that Broly is probably stronger than Beerus. What more evidence do you need?
Hell, even God Toppo was on Beerus' level, according to Belmod.

Lets see, nowhere did it state that god Toppo was on Beerus level. Being like a god of destruction does not mean equal in power or around Beerus. Naturally, power varies among the gods...

You say: "Whis clearly states that Jiren's surpassed the Hakaishins in episode 109." But...

Episode 110 states:...

PERHAPS surpassed it. So it was only confirmed that Jiren surpassed Belmond. BTW, it's the same case with the Broly statement concerning Beerus...A statement contrary to fact but made with uncertainty.
It doesn't prove Broly is stronger than Beerus cause it isn't saying such a thing. Just like it never said Jiren surpassed all gods, that is nothing more than a fan delusion.

No, as clearly seen in the manga, the Hakaishins are all similar in power. Belmod straight up said "Toppo is no different from a God of Destruction". It's in the subs. I'm sorry but these are facts.

And you forgot one thing, when Whis said "perhaps", he was referring to a HIGHLY suppressed Jiren. He was using, like, 40% of his power during his first fight with Goku.
40% Jiren >= Gods of Destruction. Pretty impressive, isn't it?

[Miracles]

Whis clearly states that Jiren's surpassed the Hakaishins in episode 109. And Goku says that Broly is probably stronger than Beerus. What more evidence do you need?
Hell, even God Toppo was on Beerus' level, according to Belmod.

Lets see, nowhere did it state that god Toppo was on Beerus level. Being like a god of destruction does not mean equal in power or around Beerus. Naturally, power varies among the gods...

You say: "Whis clearly states that Jiren's surpassed the Hakaishins in episode 109." But...

Episode 110 states:...

PERHAPS surpassed it. So it was only confirmed that Jiren surpassed Belmond. BTW, it's the same case with the Broly statement concerning Beerus...A statement contrary to fact but made with uncertainty.
It doesn't prove Broly is stronger than Beerus cause it isn't saying such a thing. Just like it never said Jiren surpassed all gods, that is nothing more than a fan delusion.

No, as clearly seen in the manga, the Hakaishins are all similar in power. Belmod straight up said "Toppo is no different from a God of Destruction". It's in the subs. I'm sorry but these are facts.

And you forgot one thing, when Whis said "perhaps", he was referring to a HIGHLY suppressed Jiren. He was using, like, 40% of his power during his first fight with Goku.
40% Jiren >= Gods of Destruction. Pretty impressive, isn't it?

What is impressive is your headcannon. Jiren using 40% of his power? That number wasn't given and even when Whis seen Jiren's full power the narration didn't change for Jiren's strength. He still was only clarified to be stronger only than Belmond, not all the gods. Toppo being no different from a god of destruction does not mean he is equal in power to Beerus or any other god. That is what you are inserting in the story. You state that all the gods are similar in power yet Beerus was the one who out shined them and it was clearly implied that the strongest two is between Beerus and Quitela. I'm sorry you are not going by facts but trying to write your own story for Super.

[Amir]

You are using headcannon, Jiren was outright only specified to be stronger than his god. Then Whis confirmed ONLY this "rumor" in the TOP. Jiren or Goku was never confirmed to be above the rest of the gods by Whis. This fact is even proven more so when the current stronger opponent is still compared to Beerus with doubts in the Broly arc. You are inputting your own desires in the story and then trying to connect the dots yourself and concluding for the plot. Which causes you to yet again contradict Dragonballs narration laws about the scale escalating each arc in order for Goku to get stronger as the story goes on.

No, Whis never said that Jiren is only stronger than the GoD of his universe in the anime (this happens only in the manga). He says that Jiren is on the same level as a GoD, maybe stronger (he does not say that Jiren is stronger than '' his '' GoD, he just says '' a GoD, '' generalizing the entire GoD class) . That is, Beerus is included. Jiren has at least the same level of these GoDs and at the end of ToP it gets more powerful. So I do not see why assuming he not overcame the GoDs

Everything you stated is wrong...

https://imgur.com/vidgif/video?url=http ... vrNHKBp098

Whis just confirmed in the TOP that the "rumor" about A motal being stronger than A god is Jiren and Belmond in that very instance. He just matched the Rumor being true about two people after watching Jiren and Belmond. Nothing about god'S in general. You should reread the story my man.

Why do you keep saying that Whis was talking about Belmod? He literally never mentions Belmod. That only happens in the manga. He just says a god, which means any god, not a specific one, he even says Jiren perhaps surpassed the GoD state itself right after that, which further supports the fact he was talking about GoDs in general.

If Jiren perhaps surpassed the state of a GoD in a suppressed state and later became much much stronger, then he is stronger than Beerus, that's no headcanon, It's common sense. The show doesn't have to direcrtly state: "Jiren is stronger than Beerus" for it to be confirmed.

Also lets still say Whis was talking about Belmod . If Belmod is indeed that GoD that beat Beerus in arm wrestling, then they at least have to be very relative and comparable in strength (not headcanon, but rather obvious common sense) going logically and narratively, and Jiren still vastly surpassed that.

All the evidence point toward Jiren. You hace to prove that Beerus is above Jiren, not the other way around.