Gohan vs. Dabura

[Piccolo Daimao]

I always thought people thought he was a Super Saiyan 2 because there was no reason for him not to be.

No lightning~

I know there's no lightning, and there's no excuse for them to think that. But the fact of the matter is, because there is no explanation for why Gohan didn't go SSJ2 which doesn't contradict the other events in the manga, they come to the conclusion that Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 without lightning (without even questioning how there can be a SSJ2 without lightning in his aura).

[Godo]

A whole crapton of miniquotes...

I'll just repeat myself:

"No, that's your view of the whole thing. I read Dragonball, drawn and written by Akira Toriyama, not the Daizenshuu.
My perception of the story and the manga is not affected by the Daizenshuu.

If you want to go strictly by the Daizenshuu, by all means, do so. But I don't see it as something to take high in regard when it comes to it's facts, since my perception is different from reading the manga."

And add:

"We interpret things differently when reading a story, and your answers to my post do nothing at all to change even one opinion in my post, because...
...you should know the answer already".

Although, most of the evidence provided in the manga and Daizenshuu does point to Kaiôshin being stronger than Piccolo.

That's not how I interpreted it. The manga doesn't show any more evidence but "He is in a whole other dimension than I am" or something of that sort.

I always thought people thought he was a Super Saiyan 2 because there was no reason for him not to be.

No lightning~

I know there's no lightning, and there's no excuse for them to think that. But the fact of the matter is, because there is no explanation for why Gohan didn't go SSJ2 which doesn't contradict the other events in the manga, they come to the conclusion that Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 without lightning (without even questioning how there can be a SSJ2 without lightning in his aura).

We are talking about the Buu arc here.

[Bussani]

I know there's no lightning, and there's no excuse for them to think that. But the fact of the matter is, because there is no explanation for why Gohan didn't go SSJ2 which doesn't contradict the other events in the manga, they come to the conclusion that Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 without lightning (without even questioning how there can be a SSJ2 without lightning in his aura).

If it wasn't for the Daizenshuu, the idea that he was SSJ2 without lightning would never have entered my head as an option. But that's just me.

[hleV]

I guess Toriyama made mistakes. Mistakes in either the drawing or the plot.

[Dayspring]

I guess Toriyama made mistakes. Mistakes in either the drawing or the plot.

It was just another example of convenient plotholes. Gohan even states that he can't get angry enough 'for some reason.' The resulting problem made for a good story: if Gohan can't go SSJ2 and he's the one who ends up fighting Dabura, the fight will drag on and make Vegeta mad, which leads to Babidi taking control of him and Buu being released. Thus, Gohan won't be able to transform.

It's exactly like when Goku was randomly the most skilled user of telepathy in the Namek and Android sagas. When did he learn it and how come he doesn't use it all the time? He just had it at those moments because it was convenient for advancing the plot. Did we need Goku to be brought up to speed and formulate a plan on Namek and for the Androids? No, so he's telepathic. Do we need Goku to randomly find a means of eavesdropping on Kaio and Saichoru? No, so he's telepathic. Do we need Gohan to have a long, in-depth monologue explanaining why he can't go SSJ2 at will at this moment when he could earlier? No, so he can't 'for some reason' even he doesn't know.

[Godo]

I love your post Dayspring.

To alter a quote of Dr. Cox from Scrubs:
I love that post so much that I want to sleep with it and have small tiny baby posts with it.

[Son_Gohan]

It was just another example of convenient plotholes. Gohan even states that he can't get angry enough 'for some reason.' The resulting problem made for a good story: if Gohan can't go SSJ2 and he's the one who ends up fighting Dabura, the fight will drag on and make Vegeta mad, which leads to Babidi taking control of him and Buu being released. Thus, Gohan won't be able to transform.

It's exactly like when Goku was randomly the most skilled user of telepathy in the Namek and Android sagas. When did he learn it and how come he doesn't use it all the time? He just had it at those moments because it was convenient for advancing the plot. Did we need Goku to be brought up to speed and formulate a plan on Namek and for the Androids? No, so he's telepathic. Do we need Goku to randomly find a means of eavesdropping on Kaio and Saichoru? No, so he's telepathic. Do we need Gohan to have a long, in-depth monologue explanaining why he can't go SSJ2 at will at this moment when he could earlier? No, so he can't 'for some reason' even he doesn't know.

Except that it's never once stated that he could not go SSJ2 just that he could not release his anger, and if that were true, Vegeta would've surely said something along those lines during the fight with Dabura.

Vegeta only reiterates what he said previously during Gohan's SSJ2 transformation at the tournament; that he was stronger as a brat, and if he was referring to Gohan's SSJ1 transformation when he says that, than Gohan couldn't have had been able to put up a fight against an opponent who was hyped up to be as strong as Perfect Cell, it wouldn't make sense at all.

Goku's telepathy and mind reading was actually given an explanation in the Daizenshuu, so no, they're not the same.

[mAcChaos]

What was the explanation for the telepathy?

[Son_Gohan]

What was the explanation for the telepathy?

If you check Kanzentai in Daizenshuu 4's translations section, under the Racial Groups characteristics, you'll find it there.

It basically states that it is a result of Goku training his spirit:

A telepathic ability blossomed through intense training.
Just by holding his hand over someone's head, he reads their memories. While asleep, he hears what everyone says amidst his dreams. These various forms of telepathy are a result of undergoing intense training and sharpening his spirit.

[Dayspring]

It was just another example of convenient plotholes. Gohan even states that he can't get angry enough 'for some reason.' The resulting problem made for a good story: if Gohan can't go SSJ2 and he's the one who ends up fighting Dabura, the fight will drag on and make Vegeta mad, which leads to Babidi taking control of him and Buu being released. Thus, Gohan won't be able to transform.

It's exactly like when Goku was randomly the most skilled user of telepathy in the Namek and Android sagas. When did he learn it and how come he doesn't use it all the time? He just had it at those moments because it was convenient for advancing the plot. Did we need Goku to be brought up to speed and formulate a plan on Namek and for the Androids? No, so he's telepathic. Do we need Goku to randomly find a means of eavesdropping on Kaio and Saichoru? No, so he's telepathic. Do we need Gohan to have a long, in-depth monologue explanaining why he can't go SSJ2 at will at this moment when he could earlier? No, so he can't 'for some reason' even he doesn't know.

Except that it's never once stated that he could not go SSJ2 just that he could not release his anger, and if that were true, Vegeta would've surely said something along those lines during the fight with Dabura.

Gohan thinks it to himself either after Goku leaves to fight Vegeta or before Gohan and Kaioshin get ready to fight Boo.

Vegeta only reiterates what he said previously during Gohan's SSJ2 transformation at the tournament; that he was stronger as a brat, and if he was referring to Gohan's SSJ1 transformation when he says that, than Gohan couldn't have had been able to put up a fight against an opponent who was hyped up to be as strong as Perfect Cell, it wouldn't make sense at all.

It actually does. Gohan and Goku were able to fight Cell in regular SSJ, Gohan at the time possibly even capable of winning had he had the resolve to fight. Now he's certainly nowhere near that level anymore, but he's still at least in the same league as Goku's Cell Games strength.

Goku's telepathy and mind reading was actually given an explanation in the Daizenshuu, so no, they're not the same.

Yeah, not really. It's just reiterating the weak explanation implied by the manga. Kaio's planet to Earth is a LOT closer than Kaio's planet to Namek. Yet when Goku first goes SSJ, the ability to eavesdrop on Kaio was so second nature that it happened without him intending to do it. For this ability to not exist in the slightest once he's FP-SSJ (ex: when his spiritual strength has been honed for about 5 years more) makes no sense to me.

Meanwhile the manga implies that it's a matter of not having perfect control when it comes to Gohan. There's definitely some control, as we see when he goes SSJ2 against Kibito, but 'some reason' keeps him from going SSJ2 again later. Weak, I know, but that's the point I'm making.

[Savage68]

Uh, yeah, he did. After Goku asked Vegeta if he could go first, Vegeta said something along the lines of "Do you what you want, I'll still be the winner in the end" or "I'll still beat him in the end".

Yes, 'in the end'. Vegeta already knew Goku was hiding his power by virtue of him...actually saying it. Do you also think that Vegeta planned on beating #18 and Piccolo without using SSj, as well? >.>

I'll just repeat myself:

"No, that's your view of the whole thing. I read Dragonball, drawn and written by Akira Toriyama, not the Daizenshuu.
My perception of the story and the manga is not affected by the Daizenshuu.

If you want to go strictly by the Daizenshuu, by all means, do so. But I don't see it as something to take high in regard when it comes to it's facts, since my perception is different from reading the manga."

And add:

"We interpret things differently when reading a story, and your answers to my post do nothing at all to change even one opinion in my post, because...
...you should know the answer already".

Okay. Everything in the manga itself points to Kaioshin being stronger than Piccolo. Deflecting the guides isn't helping you at all. You could either try to refute everything I pointed out in my previous post, or quiet down.

[Son_Gohan]

Gohan thinks it to himself either after Goku leaves to fight Vegeta or before Gohan and Kaioshin get ready to fight Boo.

No, he doesn't actually. The term SSJ2, surpassed SSJ, a Saiyan who has broken through the SSJ wall, whatever you may call it; all these would've been applicable... but it is not brought up. If you're trying to use the statement of anger as a means of referring to his Super Saiyajin 2 form, that still doesn't cohere, because at the tournament he never needed it to transform. In the anime's interpretation, they use a flashback to exemplify Goku's statements and they don't show Gohan transforming into SSJ2 for the first time, they show the Kamehameha struggle where he releases all his power to defeat Cell, which makes the reference to what form Gohan was using to me, being clear as day.

It actually does. Gohan and Goku were able to fight Cell in regular SSJ, Gohan at the time possibly even capable of winning had he had the resolve to fight. Now he's certainly nowhere near that level anymore, but he's still at least in the same league as Goku's Cell Games strength.

We don't know exactly how much weaker Gohan became. When Gohan transforms as a SSJ2 at the tournament, Vegeta comments that he was nowhere near the level he was against Cell, so for his SSJ1 level to have weakened lower than Goku's strength at the Cell Games is possible. Also, for Gohan to be a weakened SSJ1, I would imagine Dabura wouldn't have had much trouble causing damage to him, yet it seemed to be an issue during the fight.

Yeah, not really. It's just reiterating the weak explanation implied by the manga. Kaio's planet to Earth is a LOT closer than Kaio's planet to Namek. Yet when Goku first goes SSJ, the ability to eavesdrop on Kaio was so second nature that it happened without him intending to do it. For this ability to not exist in the slightest once he's FP-SSJ (ex: when his spiritual strength has been honed for about 5 years more) makes no sense to me.

Meanwhile the manga implies that it's a matter of not having perfect control when it comes to Gohan. There's definitely some control, as we see when he goes SSJ2 against Kibito, but 'some reason' keeps him from going SSJ2 again later. Weak, I know, but that's the point I'm making.

We do see him use that familiar ability during the Buu saga though, when he tells everyone that he's coming to Earth for one day.

Gohan only needs to lose control of himself when triggering his anger to release dormant power, not when transforming into SSJ2 (as evident when he transforms against Kibito). It's true that anger was what contributed to him transforming into SSJ2 the first time, but since it was stated that Goku and Vegeta achieved their SSJ2 forms through training, we can deduce that Gohan's anger rose his Ki enough to break through the 'Super Saiyan wall' and beyond, and the transformation not being a result of the anger itself but due to the Ki boost. In Goku's case, at least we are given an actual reason to validate his actions, but to assume that Gohan is unable to transform into SSJ2 anymore for reasons not explicitly given in the manga or anywhere else for that matter, I'm not really buying that.

[Savage68]

When Gohan transforms as a SSJ2 at the tournament, Vegeta comments that he was nowhere near the level he was against Cell

He only says that Gohan was stronger as a kid. He never implies that he had become much weaker or anything.

[Son_Gohan]

He only says that Gohan was stronger as a kid. He never implies that he had become much weaker or anything.

Vegeta implies that Gohan had gotten weaker before the tournament; since he intended on fighting Gohan knowing full well of his SSJ2 power, based off his fight with Cell. Yet he still believes he could beat him due to Gohan's lack of training. The only time he actually sees his SSJ2 form after those 7 years was during the match with Kibito, and it validates his previous claims of the inactivity taking its toll on his power. You could probably try making the argument that Vegeta's training in those 7 years had surpassed Gohan's battle power back in the Cell Games, which would account for his confidence. But remember that when Vegeta faces off against Goku, he considered surpassing SSJ2 Kid Gohan to be an "impressive" feat.

[Savage68]

Vegeta implies that Gohan had gotten weaker before the tournament; since he intended on fighting Gohan knowing full well of his SSJ2 power, based off his fight with Cell. Yet he still believes he could beat him due to Gohan's lack of training.

He only poses it as a question. He never outright does anything to indicate that his SSj 2 is stronger or on equal grounds with Gohan's was, as a kid.

But remember that when Vegeta faces off against Goku, he considered surpassing SSJ2 Kid Gohan to be an "impressive" feat.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Pre-Majin SSj 2 Vegeta knew he was weaker than SSj 2 kid Gohan. That doesn't have to mean that Gohan is a lot weaker than before; he'sonly weak enough that Vegeta was able to surpass him.

[Son_Gohan]

But the fact remains that he did become weaker. We can't scrutinize an exact figure but his power drop was obviously significant enough to warrant Vegeta's adverse criticism, as he says he wasn't even near the level he was as a kid. If it wasn't intended to be seen as a great difference in power, than I don't think it would've been brought up so many times. But if his SSJ2 form had become weakened due to the lack of training, his SSJ1 form would've suffered the same fate. Which is why I can't see Gohan being just a normal SSJ fighting Dabura... he takes a clean shot from Dabura's magic and emerges with just tattered clothes, no blood, scratches or anything. But when we look back at a similar occurrence in the Cell Games, from a supposedly stronger SSJ Gohan, the damage is clearly evident. And now someone said to be as strong as Perfect Cell isn't able to do the same to a weaker SSJ Gohan?

That doesn't make sense to me.

[hleV]

Pre-Majin SSj 2 Vegeta knew he was weaker than SSj 2 kid Gohan.

What? No, not necessary.

In Babidi's Ship, Vegeta told Goku that Gohan wasn't training for all those years and that they were probably stronger than him at that time.

[Savage68]

But the fact remains that he did become weaker. We can't scrutinize an exact figure but his power drop was obviously significant enough to warrant Vegeta's adverse criticism, as he says he wasn't even near the level he was as a kid. If it wasn't intended to be seen as a great difference in power, than I don't think it would've been brought up so many times. But if his SSJ2 form had become weakened due to the lack of training, his SSJ1 form would've suffered the same fate. Which is why I can't see Gohan being just a normal SSJ fighting Dabura... he takes a clean shot from Dabura's magic and emerges with just tattered clothes, no blood, scratches or anything. But when we look back at a similar occurrence in the Cell Games, from a supposedly stronger SSJ Gohan, the damage is clearly evident. And now someone said to be as strong as Perfect Cell isn't able to do the same to a weaker SSJ Gohan?

That doesn't make sense to me.

Well, this is why many people I know purport that, regardless of Gohan looking like a SSj 1 -they ignore the ginormous detriment it does to the story and take him as being SSj 2. And they do a damn good job of it.

It's either a story inconsistency or an art inconsistency.

In Babidi's Ship, Vegeta told Goku that Gohan wasn't training for all those years and that they were probably stronger than him at that time.

Yes, and Vegeta was pre-Majin when he said that. That's what I was saying.

[Son_Gohan]

Well, this is why many people I know purport that, regardless of Gohan looking like a SSj 1 -they ignore the ginormous detriment it does to the story and take him as being SSj 2. And they do a damn good job of it.

It's either a story inconsistency or an art inconsistency.

How does claiming he was a SSJ2 against Dabura cause detriment to the story exactly? It actually ties everything together, instead of aimlessly looking around for a reason why he never transforms into SSJ2 after the tournament, that creates a huge plothole; which is far more detrimental to the story, from what I can see.

I don't know about you, but he looks like a SSJ2 to me.

[Savage68]

How does claiming he was a SSJ2 against Dabura cause detriment to the story exactly? It actually ties everything together, instead of aimlessly looking around for a reason why he never transforms into SSJ2 after the tournament, that creates a huge plothole; which is far more detrimental to the story, from what I can see.

No, what I said was Gohan only being SSj 1 was a huge detriment to the story.

If people could get over the art, everything would make tons more sense.

But the strands of hair really mean nothing in the face of a clear SSj 1 aura.