Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Senzu_Bean]

That's the only thing I don't like with these guides, they don't put a quarter of the time/effort that your average fanboy puts in.

I'm glad they didn't then.

I believe it was stated, as being closer to multiplication, than it is to addition.

Yes. But Vegetto is Goku x Vegeta.

[p123]

Yes I agree, I said the same as in my post , that it's shouldn't be taken literally and should just show its more of a multiplication then an addition. Which anyone would already know if they read the damn manga lol.


I didn't include KibitoShin because I wanted to use power levels that people knew of from Daiz/power scouter numbers. The more official numbers you know? If I'm over here showing people KibitoShin the could be like well he doesn't know what he's talking about I have Kibito at 1,000 not 1 billion. You know?


So I used 100% factual numbers, a lot from the Freeza Saga in which they go way beyond their boundaries showing what a joke the AxB method is.

[Senzu_Bean]

... showing what a joke the AxB method is.

Hey, blame the fans for that. None guide ever stated Fusion or Potara is A x B.

[Godo]

There is no problem with AxB in fusion. There is only a problem for fans when they make Powerlevel lists.
Since we don't know the real powerlevels (no matter how hard we have crunched numbers) we can't disregard AxB as fusion.
We do not know Goku and Vegeta's base numbers. We do not know Buu's powerlevel.
All in all, it's hard to disregard something when you don't have hard evidence and what you think is based on your own personal assumptions and some lines from the manga.
Just sayin'. And another thing, if we are going to take lines from the manga hardcore: No one ever comments on Goku and Vegeta's base power after the Freeza Arc. So who knows if it got stronger or weaker, or if only the SSJ transformations got stronger?
Maybe it does make sense, but we don't know why.

I for one don't care if it's AxB or something in the lines of (X^2/logY^33)^0.05x3000. I just know that Vegetto and Gotenks became freakishly strong.

[p123]

Actually if you were paying attention you will see I didn't use power level lists. I used scouter readings.

Roshi being 139 is in the manga. If he fused with himself he would be stronger than Saiyan Saga Vegeta. Which is ridicolous.

And Goku(90k) and Ginyu ( 120k) would be 10 billion. Which is just retarted.


So no, this has nothing to do with fan made power level lists. It's all about the AxB formula being foolish, and a lazy concept, in which you have failed to realize.

[Senzu_Bean]

Which is ridicolous.

Which is just retarted.

Why?! As you see that is entirely your opinion, an assumption since nothing says those cannot be possible.

[p123]

Common sense does. You think that Roshi/Roshi being stronger than Saiyan Saga Vegeta makes sense?

[Godo]

Actually if you were paying attention you will see I didn't use power level lists. I used scouter readings.

Roshi being 139 is in the manga. If he fused with himself he would be stronger than Saiyan Saga Vegeta. Which is ridicolous.

And Goku(90k) and Ginyu ( 120k) would be 10 billion. Which is just retarted.

So no, this has nothing to do with fan made power level lists. It's all about the AxB formula being foolish, and a lazy concept, in which you have failed to realize.

Why not? Goku said that the metamorians were weak creatures, but with fusion they became really strong warriors. Strong enough, in fact, that Goku considered using it with the kids, who were untrained and weak compared to the rest. He even considered using it against Super Buu.
Remember that the likes of Recoome in Dragonball are seen as strong.

Common sense does. You think that Roshi/Roshi being stronger than Saiyan Saga Vegeta makes sense?

Don't bring in common sense in a series about Aliens, Magic and fighters being billions of times stronger than an average human, where people fly on magic clouds, own extending rods, can breathe underwater for extended periods, can fly in high speeds and still see where they are going, can transform into basically anything (giant monkeys, that creature from Alien, monsters and several advanced forms), and can destroy a planet with a flip of their finger.
How do you know that Goku as a SSJ3 isn't one million times stronger than SSJ2 Goku? How do you know that Majin Buu after powering up to full power isn't one million times stronger?
Common sense? Please!
You are only trying to make sense of the series via your numbers, try to find "information" and disregard anything that doesn't fit into your safe world of binary which functions as a pacifier or a nice suckling on a tit.

[p123]

Well I am using guides just like you. AxB and SSJ3 being a 4x multiplier are both ideas coming from the same general place.

But your POV is plausible of course, I just don't agree with AxB.

It's frustrating debating the Buu Saga because of how unclear AT made it. So I need to take step back.

[Kaboom]

I like this thread.

I really, really don't want to have to lock it or something.

[JulieYBM]

I like this thread.

I really, really don't want to have to lock it or something.

You could always make a Volume II...


I might post back in a few days with a new list. I sort of have the itch, so to speak...

[uzuni]

p123, can you explain where in my list the manga is contradicted? Maybe it's because I haven't read that part in a while but I still felt they were pretty accurate.

Also, as Godo commented, Metamorese fusion is very powerful, considering the fact that it makes two weaklings into a powerful warrior. (My formula for Metamorese fusion is original level x10. It also explains why they had to both be at the exact same level when fusing.) Now, you should also note that it was stated that a Potara fusion was far better than a Metamorese fusion, which would further support my Potara multiplier of AxB.

[dbgtFO]

Now, you should also note that it was stated that a Potara fusion was far better than a Metamorese fusion, which would further support my Potara multiplier of AxB.

But you conveniently lef out Kibitoshin who with your numbers and formula would look like this:

Kaioshin = 2.000.000.000 or: 2*10^9
Kibito = 38.000.000 or: 38*10^6

Kibitoshin = Kaioshin*Kibito

Kibitoshin = 76.000.000.000.000.000. or 76*10^15

And you have Buu(with Gotenks absorbed) at = 65.000.000.000.
And yet Old Kai says, that Kibitoshin is of no use against Buutenks, when Kibitoshin is over 1 million times stronger, than him???

...Yeah, if you are making power levels AxB just won't work properly.

[uzuni]

Now, you should also note that it was stated that a Potara fusion was far better than a Metamorese fusion, which would further support my Potara multiplier of AxB.

But you conveniently lef out Kibitoshin who with your numbers and formula would look like this:

Kaioshin = 2.000.000.000 or: 2*10^9
Kibito = 38.000.000 or: 38*10^6

Kibitoshin = Kaioshin*Kibito

Kibitoshin = 76.000.000.000.000.000. or 76*10^15

And you have Buu(with Gotenks absorbed) at = 65.000.000.000.
And yet Old Kai says, that Kibitoshin is of no use against Buutenks, when Kibitoshin is over 1 million times stronger, than him???

...Yeah, if you are making power levels AxB just won't work properly.

...Yeah, you caught me there But other than that, how's the list look?

[p123]

Well thats the thing uzuni. Having KibitoSHin is an integral part of this. How about you do Gokule. I'm sure your numbers would have issues as well.

As well as Gokan, who only might not need to transform. It's not like Base Gokan should be hundreds of times stronger than Buutenks you know.

The AxB is severely flawed man.


Your using fake VJUMP levels as the entire basis for your number set. Meanwhile you have a much better set of percentiles than that. You can have a very good mathematic list but choose to go the Fake VJump fandmade power level/ Daiz route.

You have Base Goku 12x weaker than Yakon. THat is just flat out false.

[uzuni]

Well thats the thing uzuni. Having KibitoSHin is an integral part of this. How about you do Gokule. I'm sure your numbers would have issues as well.

As well as Gokan, who only might not need to transform. It's not like Base Gokan should be hundreds of times stronger than Buutenks you know.

The AxB is severely flawed man.


Your using fake VJUMP levels as the entire basis for your number set. Meanwhile you have a much better set of percentiles than that. You can have a very good mathematic list but choose to go the Fake VJump fandmade power level/ Daiz route.

You have Base Goku 12x weaker than Yakon. THat is just flat out false.

OK, OK, I have an idea. I'll change potara to 10(A+B) How's that? That puts my Kibitoshin at 20,380,000, just under Boo and SSJ3 Goku. Seems reasonable enough.

And as for the Yakon/Goku thing, I see that working perfectly fine.

[p123]

It's impossible to tell. Your fusion multiplier is heavily dependant on your transformation mulitpliers.

WHy don't you post an A > B chart for the Freeza Saga / Cell Saga first let me look through everything. And then we move on to the uber complicated Buu Saga next?

[Kaboom]

Here's the first set of numbers I've posted in a while. In light of the recent guidebook-inspired epiphanies regarding Gotenks, I've tweaked my Majin Boo-arc levels.

Multipliers:

Super Saiyan ~ 50x base

• Ol' reliable.

Super Saiyan 2 ~ 100x base (2x SSj)

• Why not?

Super Saiyan 3 ~ 200x base (2x SSj2)

• Preferred because it works much better than the bloated 400x boost "suggested" by the SEG. We'll just say that only the physical "strength" gets boosted 4x, but not Ki along with it, and leave it at that, okey-dokey?

Super Saiyan 4 ~ 500x base (SSj [50] x Ozaru [10])

• Not relevant at all to this list, but I wanted to include it. It's part of the reason why I prefer 200x for SSj3, at the very least.

For the foreseeable future, I'm gonna stop bothering with "multipliers" for Fusion. It's too much of a pain and there's too many variables to consider, and I don't care as much as I used to. So Fusion characters will simply be where the story decrees they are, not where a formula does. Good thing that's how it was written in the first place. Any future reinstated formulas will be very loose and suspect to heavy "rounding."



Son Gohan - 19,500,000
(Cell Games - 22,000,000)
Super Saiyan - 975,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 - 1,950,000,000
Ultimate - 15,000,000,000

• Gohan's lost a good amount of power from slacking off for the last 7 years, and is now trailing pretty far behind Goku and Vegeta, who have both spent that time training their behinds to the bone. He gets an unnatural and undeserved amount of power in his 'Ultimate' form.

Vegeta - 24,500,000
Super Saiyan - 1,225,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 - 2,450,000,000
Majin SSj2 - 2,666,000,000

Son Goku - 26,650,000
Super Saiyan - 1,335,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 - 2,665,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 - 5,350,000,000

• There's a sizable gap between Gohan and the other two, and a smaller but still significant gap between Goku and Vegeta, which the latter needs Bobbidi's magic boost to fill. Finally, Super Saiyan 3 is extremely badass.

Piccolo - 750,000,000

• Piccolo is also extremely badass.

Son Goten - 7,000,000
Super Saiyan - 350,000,000
Post-RoSaT - 8,250,000
Super Saiyan - 415,000,000

Kid Trunks - 7,500,000
Super Saiyan - 375,000,000
Post-RoSaT - 8,750,000
Super Saiyan - 435,000,000

• The kids are already strong enough to be a serious threat to Android 18 and even impress their elders when sparring and powering up. They get a way-too-generous-and-makes-no-sense boost from training in the Room of Spirit and Time for barely a week.

Android 18 - 275,000,000

• Yay, Android 18.

Kibito - 25,000,000

• Strong enough that Gohan probably couldn't beat him without Super Saiyan. Though his physical strength must be severely lacking in comparison to his Ki level, since he couldn't lift the Z-sword like Gohan could.

Kaioshin - 750,000,001
Fused with Kibito - 2,000,000,000

• He's stronger than Piccolo for the sole reason of making sure I don't get bitched at. After merging with Kibito, he's still weaker than the Super Saiyan 2s, and useless against just about every form of Majin Boo.

PuiPui - 850,000
Yakon - 22,000,000

• PuiPui still sucks, and Yakon still sucks a little less.

Dabra - 1,000,000,000

• "About as strong as [an unspecified form of] Cell." He has a more-or-less even fight with Super Saiyan Gohan, but is assumed to be the better of the two. Goku and Vegeta could totally kick his ass.

Gotenks - 45,000,000
Super Saiyan - 2,250,000,000
Post-RoSaT - 55,000,000
Super Saiyan - 2,750,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 - 11,000,000,000

• Going with the guidebooks' implications for Gotenks here. He's "stronger than Gohan" his first time around. After his week in the Room of Spirit and Time, he's "surpassed Vegeta and the others." All in all, he's roughly twice as strong as the adult Saiyans' average. Huzzah.

Fat Boo - 3,500,000,000

• He's a bit too much for any of the Super Saiyan 2 folks to handle (as well as, by coincidence, Super Gotenks), but Super Saiyan 3 Goku could roll him up and smoke him.

Evil Boo - 2,000,000,000

• This "evil incarnate" form of Fat Boo got most of the power in the split.

Mister Boo - 1,500,000,000

• What's left. Got smoked by his evil side and Kid Boo later.

Super Boo - 11,000,000,000

• Boo's evil side is now in control, and he's able to access much more of his South Kaioshin-fueled power. More or less even with SSj3 Gotenks.

Gotenks-Boo - 22,000,000,000

• Super Boo + Gotenks. Easy.

Gohan-Boo - 26,000,000,000

• Super Boo + Gohan. Also easy.

Buff Boo - 15,000,000,000

• Super Boo's power from South Kaioshin temporarily flares up in full while he's undergoing his "reversion" to his natural Kid Boo self.

Kid Boo - 5,250,000,000

• Fought on more-or-less even grounds with Goku, who could have wiped him out if he'd managed to gather enough power.

Vegetto - 700,000,000
Super Saiyan - 35,000,000,000
True Power - ∞

• Self-explanatory. I mean, it's Vegetto for cryin' out loud.

Well, there you have it. Read 'em and weep. No, seriously, I'd better see some freakin' tears.

[Rocketman]

Son Gohan
Super Saiyan - 975,000,000

Vegetto - 700,000,000

I'm sorry, what?

[Kaboom]

Son Gohan
Super Saiyan - 975,000,000

Vegetto - 700,000,000

I'm sorry, what?

That's from a "bare minimum amount which would allow him to pwn Gohan-Boo as a Super Saiyan" standpoint. For a more accurate figure representing Vegetto's power regardless of form, see the "True Power" line situated below that one.