Dragonball Z: Saiyan Saga - Help make this happen!

[Ashura]

The fact that Mortal Kombat Rebirth used an established director and known actors doesn't make what they did any more legal or illegal compared to these guys. I'm sure they'd like to get commercially recognized and allowed to do something officially with the franchise; just because they're unknown means absolutely nothing in terms of the project being okay or not okay. It's like Alex Albrecht's Voltron fanfilm, and Danny T's Portal one; those guys are mostly known on the internet, but they still used intellectual properties without permission. Or if you want to go completely unknown, there's the guy who did the Grayson fanfilm years back that people raved about.

I think the main problem with this is that they're soliciting fan money instead of completely self-funding, though has there been any other precedent set on this so far? I know the Inspector Spacetime fanfilm (written by the guy who played Inspector Spacetime) had to be retooled because NBC complained.

Pretty much, situations like these seem to usually fall to two big things from what I've seen so far: 1.) Are the people profiting in any way from using an intellectual property without permission? 2.) Do the rights holders care to stop it even if it's not making any money. (Nintendo is a big example of a company going after fans even if their project isn't anywhere near good.)

Right now, though, we're in a weird space where fans can be a professional level of creative with other people's properties on limited budgets, and, as with a lot of things on the internet frontier, the complete legal workings of what you can and can't do hasn't been completely ironed out one way or the other. I think companies are trying to figure out how far they should let fans go, and they probably don't all agree with each other on what's a fair line to meter in the sand.

EDIT: Fixed a typo.

[VegettoEX]

Oh, you're right. Don't misunderstand -- I wasn't arguing the legality of Mortal Kombat Rebirth or, like you gave as another good example, the TRS guys' projects. I think the only big difference there is that all of them are well-known names in their fields, and "coming down on them" from the rights holders would likely result in far more bad press than squashing this DBZ project and upsetting only a few fans for a week or so before everyone forgot.

[Pafupafu]

Well of course plenty of people put up fan-made projects on video sharing sites, and of course the vast majority of them aren't even taken down, never mind sued out of existence. You can't point to that "fact" and somehow expect the conversation to be over, though. This is a completely different type of project.

Granted, I haven't read a single tidbit of information about it other than what I casually see tossed around here on the forum and popping up in my news feeds (I just have no interest...), but I think I've got enough of a grasp to at least partially-edjamacatedly respond to things like this.

One of the main differences is the scale of the project -- they're not just a bunch of fans doing it just to put it up and have fun. I'm sure it's fun for them, but it jumped to the next level once production values were thrown into the mix. That's going to catch some attention from rights holders. The next was obviously the funding sources -- most people doing fan-made videos don't go soliciting fandom for the capital to produce the darn thing. That's numero dos that's going to catch the attention of rights holders.

The other thing that's going to potentially piss off rights holders is how these producers have no ties to the property in any way, even in the vaguest sense of the professional realm. At least with Mortal Kombat Rebirth, Kevin Tancharoen was a legitimate director that brought in legitimate, well-known actors and other talent with the specific purpose of pitching the production to the actual rights holders -- and as far as I know, was completely self-funded. These "Saiyan Saga" people...? Who are they again?

Just because other people make little fan projects and "get away with it" doesn't give anyone carte blanche to make what they want how they want to do it. I understand that in the grand scheme of things it's probably just a harmless little project, but it's crossed that line where they in all likelihood otherwise wouldn't have had to worry about anything once solicited funding came into the mix. The best they could have hoped for earlier would have been something like the case with Nintendo and the fan-made Zelda film where the company kept quiet until a day or so after its release, and then it was announced that it had been requested that the producers take down the video -- it was a case of "we understand this is probably harmless, but this is kinda our property and you can't just make stuff with it".

(And I'm not even BOTHERING to get into using actual materials from the actual franchise to pitch/advertise the production...)

Using the actual materials to pitch/advertise the production is clearly the biggest red flag in this discussion. They literally called the footage of the series they edited "The Animated Version" of their trailer. That's ridiculously mis-leading and false.

You are absolutely correct that the scale of the project is what separates it from the bunch. The initial public funding of $15,000+ will more than likely be considered profit if and when this goes to trial. However, that's not the only profit here. This is something that is giving YouTube and other sites profit from advertising while the actual rights holders stand unaware and unpaid.

K&K Productions have responded to multiple inquiries on YouTube about the rights to this property. Their lack of valid proof of ownership, their thought of the "Fair Usage" policy as a backdoor, and their lack of a spell check have led me to come to one simple conclusion: They do NOT have the rights to do this and have NO excuse whatsoever.

They have compared their project to Mortal Kombat Rebirth, a project that was privately funded and from DAY ONE announced as a "pitch" to the actual rights holders. The production team behind that project were PROFESSIONALS and had prior connections with the actual rights holders. They also did NOT raise funds for that project by showing a cut-together trailer of Mortal Kombat media in any way. The production had communication with the rights holders. This one clearly does not.

As far as who these "Saiyan Saga" people are, they are not any established production company. I've said this from day one. They shoot weddings on DSLR cameras. That's NOT a production company. That's a side-business for most people and is laughable in the actual industry of film making. The worst part is, they are using Dragon Ball as a means to get their production company's name out there. Let me tell you one thing we can all agree upon: K&K Productions has NOTHING to do with Dragon Ball.

The final mistake that K&K Productions has made is that they are publicly documenting their production and received public funding from actual fans (also known as consumers to the rights holders FYI). Everything they have publicly released can now be used against them in any copyright infringement case. The rights holders can literally bring each "Video Update" into court and pick out what they want to sue for. It's absolute stupidity on K&K's part and will definitely aid in the case against this project.

[Ashura]

Yeah, I will agree, cache comes with how willing companies are to engage the internet beastmind. Also, those projects were -- as it tends to happen with the better fanfilm projects that appear -- completely done by the time they were released. Which means that, even if they're taken offline, the film will still float around somewhere and most people have seen it. The creators have gained at least a bit of hype in the process, or gotten the right holder's attention.

One interesting thing to note is that Capcom -- of all companies -- has embraced fans to a degree. Megaran being allowed to release his songs officially, Street Fighter the Later Years/Reunion being shopped around as an actual tv series, etc.

[Jord]

Well of course plenty of people put up fan-made projects on video sharing sites, and of course the vast majority of them aren't even taken down, never mind sued out of existence. You can't point to that "fact" and somehow expect the conversation to be over, though. This is a completely different type of project.

Granted, I haven't read a single tidbit of information about it other than what I casually see tossed around here on the forum and popping up in my news feeds (I just have no interest...), but I think I've got enough of a grasp to at least partially-edjamacatedly respond to things like this.

One of the main differences is the scale of the project -- they're not just a bunch of fans doing it just to put it up and have fun. I'm sure it's fun for them, but it jumped to the next level once production values were thrown into the mix. That's going to catch some attention from rights holders. The next was obviously the funding sources -- most people doing fan-made videos don't go soliciting fandom for the capital to produce the darn thing. That's numero dos that's going to catch the attention of rights holders.

The other thing that's going to potentially piss off rights holders is how these producers have no ties to the property in any way, even in the vaguest sense of the professional realm. At least with Mortal Kombat Rebirth, Kevin Tancharoen was a legitimate director that brought in legitimate, well-known actors and other talent with the specific purpose of pitching the production to the actual rights holders -- and as far as I know, was completely self-funded. These "Saiyan Saga" people...? Who are they again?

Just because other people make little fan projects and "get away with it" doesn't give anyone carte blanche to make what they want how they want to do it. I understand that in the grand scheme of things it's probably just a harmless little project, but it's crossed that line where they in all likelihood otherwise wouldn't have had to worry about anything once solicited funding came into the mix. The best they could have hoped for earlier would have been something like the case with Nintendo and the fan-made Zelda film where the company kept quiet until a day or so after its release, and then it was announced that it had been requested that the producers take down the video -- it was a case of "we understand this is probably harmless, but this is kinda our property and you can't just make stuff with it".

(And I'm not even BOTHERING to get into using actual materials from the actual franchise to pitch/advertise the production...)

Using the actual materials to pitch/advertise the production is clearly the biggest red flag in this discussion. They literally called the footage of the series they edited "The Animated Version" of their trailer. That's ridiculously mis-leading and false.

You are absolutely correct that the scale of the project is what separates it from the bunch. The initial public funding of $15,000+ will more than likely be considered profit if and when this goes to trial. However, that's not the only profit here. This is something that is giving YouTube and other sites profit from advertising while the actual rights holders stand unaware and unpaid.

K&K Productions have responded to multiple inquiries on YouTube about the rights to this property. Their lack of valid proof of ownership, their thought of the "Fair Usage" policy as a backdoor, and their lack of a spell check have led me to come to one simple conclusion: They do NOT have the rights to do this and have NO excuse whatsoever.

They have compared their project to Mortal Kombat Rebirth, a project that was privately funded and from DAY ONE announced as a "pitch" to the actual rights holders. The production team behind that project were PROFESSIONALS and had prior connections with the actual rights holders. They also did NOT raise funds for that project by showing a cut-together trailer of Mortal Kombat media in any way. The production had communication with the rights holders. This one clearly does not.

As far as who these "Saiyan Saga" people are, they are not any established production company. I've said this from day one. They shoot weddings on DSLR cameras. That's NOT a production company. That's a side-business for most people and is laughable in the actual industry of film making. The worst part is, they are using Dragon Ball as a means to get their production company's name out there. Let me tell you one thing we can all agree upon: K&K Productions has NOTHING to do with Dragon Ball.

The final mistake that K&K Productions has made is that they are publicly documenting their production and received public funding from actual fans (also known as consumers to the rights holders FYI). Everything they have publicly released can now be used against them in any copyright infringement case. The rights holders can literally bring each "Video Update" into court and pick out what they want to sue for. It's absolute stupidity on K&K's part and will definitely aid in the case against this project.

Great post. Makes everything very clear. I just can't understand how someone, let alone a "company" think they can get away with it. One particular thing you've noted was how it uses DBZ to get their name out there. Even if the final product will be just a trailer, they would make a profit by getting free advertising for this company.

That aside, I am intrigued how the trailer will look in a train wreck kind of way. I was anticipating Evolution in the same way.

Yeah, I will agree, cache comes with how willing companies are to engage the internet beastmind. Also, those projects were -- as it tends to happen with the better fanfilm projects that appear -- completely done by the time they were released. Which means that, even if they're taken offline, the film will still float around somewhere and most people have seen it. The creators have gained at least a bit of hype in the process, or gotten the right holder's attention.

That doesn't necessarily make it a good thing. A bad fan product can create negative promotion. Let's say someone is vaguely interested in DBZ and the first thing he sees is crappy trailer made by K&K. He dislikes it and decides that DBZ is nothing for him. That kind of reverse promotion can cost Toei/Funi money.

[TripleRach]

Huh, I wasn't saying that people shouldn't complain. I was saying that people complaining or not eating everything DBZ is a part of human nature and telling people not to complain is futile.

Its human nature to not take everything thrown at them, it has been that way before before DBZ and it will be that way after it. Perhaps using nitpick was a wrong word choice. Apologize for being too general again with my posts.

Admittedly, I wasn't entirely sure about your tone, but most people say "nitpick" as something negative, so I ended up grouping it with the other complaining-about-complaining comments. Sorry for misinterpreting. I guess I would have been better off not quoting anyone to make a general response like that.

But since the legality of this project has become a focal point of the thread, I want to say that I don't mean to be a party pooper, and I imagine most others don't either. Personally, I think modern copyright laws are way too restrictive, and do more harm than good in the long run. I think there's a lot of potential in fan "remixes" of existing media, but parodies are the only type that get any legal protection. This particular project has a lot of issues with its production, though. I just hope people are willing to take off the excitement goggles and take note of these issues, rather than writing if off as "hater" complaints.

[Ashura]

That doesn't necessarily make it a good thing. A bad fan product can create negative promotion. Let's say someone is vaguely interested in DBZ and the first thing he sees is crappy trailer made by K&K. He dislikes it and decides that DBZ is nothing for him. That kind of reverse promotion can cost Toei/Funi money.

Yeah, I didn't say anything about that process itself being good or bad, just that it's how things tend to happen.

[SilverPlaqueVII]

Huh, I wasn't saying that people shouldn't complain. I was saying that people complaining or not eating everything DBZ is a part of human nature and telling people not to complain is futile.

Its human nature to not take everything thrown at them, it has been that way before before DBZ and it will be that way after it. Perhaps using nitpick was a wrong word choice. Apologize for being too general again with my posts.

Admittedly, I wasn't entirely sure about your tone, but most people say "nitpick" as something negative, so I ended up grouping it with the other complaining-about-complaining comments. Sorry for misinterpreting. I guess I would have been better off not quoting anyone to make a general response like that.

But since the legality of this project has become a focal point of the thread, I want to say that I don't mean to be a party pooper, and I imagine most others don't either. Personally, I think modern copyright laws are way too restrictive, and do more harm than good in the long run. I think there's a lot of potential in fan "remixes" of existing media, but parodies are the only type that get any legal protection. This particular project has a lot of issues with its production, though. I just hope people are willing to take off the excitement goggles and take note of these issues, rather than writing if off as "hater" complaints.

That includes the TFS parodies too. If the government were to shutdown TFS and arrest the people for copyright infringement, it'll be the same case as the Megaupload saga with serious legal action yet again. If SOPA were to exist, the TFS crew can face prison time if that happened.

Fansubs also barely attack most as well with swear words.

[Ashura]

Parody is protected under copyright law. Now, the lines are pretty blurry as to what constitutes parody and how much of the actual product you're allowed to use in your parody, of course.

[Pafupafu]

Parody that releases large amounts of copyright protected footage without much change is barely protected.

Most parodies that get away with things are completely original produced projects which exist exclusively in the comedic genre. This is what keeps shows like Saturday Night Live and Robot Chicken protected.

Modern copyright laws are strict for a reason. In some cases such as this project by K&K, they need to be more sufficient. After looking at the comments on YouTube by K&K officially, it is obvious that they are completely uneducated in this field and do not know what they are getting into. They can literally go completely bankrupt on court fees alone if a powerhouse rights holder gets a hold of them.

The casual video clip watcher may think K&K are just doing this for fun, however, it is publicly listed that this project has grossed benefits from the consumers of Dragon Ball Z products. This is business 101. Supply and Demand. They used Toei/FUNimation's supply, mixed in a bit of theirs, and EXCLUSIVELY Toei/FUNimations demand.

Only one problem: they didn't ask or even talk to Toei or FUNi.

[hulkty]

Did anyone know that the Mortal Kombat Youtube series was selling at Wal-Marts for the whole 1st season?
I can't wait for this DBZ fan film, but their Piccolo make-up is still disappointing for the face...

[Pafupafu]

I had made some comments on their YouTube page about the possibilities of copyright infringement and guess what? BLOCKED.

These guys are done.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I have a feeling that a few days after the trailer gets released the video will be taken down a few days later. Assuming that the 15.000$ went only for the production and they didn't get any profit, can they prove it?

[Avenged]

I had made some comments on their YouTube page about the possibilities of copyright infringement and guess what? BLOCKED.

These guys are done.

You going to threaten them yourself now or something? What do you mean by they are done?

[Pafupafu]

I had made some comments on their YouTube page about the possibilities of copyright infringement and guess what? BLOCKED.

These guys are done.

You going to threaten them yourself now or something? What do you mean by they are done?

No, they just don't have any defense whatsoever. Seriously, there would be a good debate if the replies they gave on their page were spelled correctly and made sense. They are completely uneducated in copyright law and if they are tried, they are done-zo.

[Insertclevername]

I had made some comments on their YouTube page about the possibilities of copyright infringement and guess what? BLOCKED.

These guys are done.

You going to threaten them yourself now or something? What do you mean by they are done?

No, they just don't have any defense whatsoever. Seriously, there would be a good debate if the replies they gave on their page were spelled correctly and made sense. They are completely uneducated in copyright law and if they are tried, they are done-zo.

Well that wasn't very nice how they blocked you, you were only warning them. Do think they might have read your message wrong? But hey, if they choose to ignore you, that ain't your problem.

[Pafupafu]

I didn't even get a chance to be negative. Some other posts about copyright claims keep popping up and disappearing on there as well. Guess they don't have a lot of time on their hands.

I did some more digging and watched their portfolio. To be completely honest, from a completely professional opinion, they are not even remotely impressive. There's 500 Indie Film Makers on Vimeo with pennies that make videos that would trump these guys. That's what is the most depressing aspect of this project. I love Dragon Ball just as much as anyone here, but hey, there are more deserving projects that get overlooked because they aren't established brands used without consent.

I began to question this project's integrity from the start and now more than ever I find that these guys are unprofessional, childish, and unworthy of the money "donated" and the property they allegedly "own".

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Obviously, they just realized that what they are doing will destroy them, and block comment's like those from Pafupafu because they are in panic. Who wouldn't be?

[Attitudefan]

Parody that releases large amounts of copyright protected footage without much change is barely protected.

Most parodies that get away with things are completely original produced projects which exist exclusively in the comedic genre. This is what keeps shows like Saturday Night Live and Robot Chicken protected.

This is a rule on Newgrounds as well. To be a proper parody, it has to contain zero origina; content. It has to be all 100% original; from drawings to sound.

[MarcFBR]

Did anyone know that the Mortal Kombat Youtube series was selling at Wal-Marts for the whole 1st season?

That wasn't a fan project. that was actually funded by Warner Bros, the owner of the Mortal Kombat franchise.

Mortal Kombat Rebirth is generally labeled as a 'fan' project, but it's different in a few significant ways. The director not only had a prior relationship with them, but had a pitch meeting in regards to doing something with the franchise. It's quite normal to product materials for a pitch meeting. The difference here is, this guy has a lot of friends, and was able to call in favors to make his pitch have an actual cast, and so forth.

The public release of the short has always had a bit more confusion about it. For all we know he has Warner's permission to put it up (potentially as a way to prove one way or the other if there was any interest.) Considering the file was pulled by the original YouTube account, that suggests that if Warner did want it taken down, they asked him in private to do so, or he took it down on his own.

And at the end of the day- He did it on his own. Not by asking others for money. Certainly not by just transcribing someone elses work into another format.