How strong was Dabura?

[Fionordequester]

The situations are still different, though. It was Goku's first time being shown as a Super Saiyan 2 and he quickly reverted back right after. We've actually seen Gohan as a Super Saiyan 2 with the traits a few chapters before.

We've also seen him with the aura even after Cell did significant damage to him, so the lack of sparks can't be because he was weaker.

Yes, AFTER he started powering up a Kamehameha, in other words, when he was starting to rise above only 50% power. So that example still proves nothing.

[Kamiccolo9]

The situations are still different, though. It was Goku's first time being shown as a Super Saiyan 2 and he quickly reverted back right after. We've actually seen Gohan as a Super Saiyan 2 with the traits a few chapters before.

We've also seen him with the aura even after Cell did significant damage to him, so the lack of sparks can't be because he was weaker.

Yes, AFTER he started powering up a Kamehameha, in other words, when he was starting to rise above only 50% power. So that example still proves nothing.

How drained do you think Gohan was against Dabura?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

In other words, "Not Serious at All Cell", "Near Full Power Cell", "Full Power Cell", "Full Power Using a Technique That Sacrifices Strength for Speed Cell", and "Super Powered Cell". Out of ALL those possibilities, you're saying that "Full Power Cell" and "Super Powered Cell" weren't the most likely candidates for which "Cell" Goku was referring to?

I said exactly the opposite. Cell's "main states" during the Cell Games were the Serious Perfect Cell (the state he fought in against Goku), Full Power Perfect Cell (the state he fought in against SS2 Gohan), and Super Perfect Cell (the state he fought in against SS2 Gohan after his near-death power-up). However, if Gohan was a Super Saiyan against Dabra, SP Cell is out.

[Fionordequester]

It's still a better point than any desperate thing being spewed against the obvious answer.

The point is, it's an extremely weak argument that most critics condemn, and I don't think you should be making it. At least, not if you wish to convince me.

"Gotenks-Boo" is very specific, making direct reference to a specific form and the power that came with it. "Cell" is not. Even assuming Goku means "Cell in his perfect form" is an assumption in Dabra's favor.

"Twice as strong" is also very specific, assigning a straightforward amount or percentage of strength. "About as strong" is very vague.

So no, it's not weird to think "about as strong as Cell" means something other than "specifically Cell in his absolute strongest state."

Ok, how about this? Suppose Piccolo were to state after his three years of training "I've become as strong as Frieza!". In that hypothetical scenario, is it more likely that he meant...

A) Frieza using only about a third of his power against Goku?

B) Frieza using half of his power against Goku?

C) Frieza using 100% of his power against Goku?

Because just like Perfect Cell, Frieza fluctuates heavily in how much power he puts out. So would you be saying that Piccolo, should he say "I've gotten as strong as Frieza", is just as likely to be referring to C as he is to A?

How drained do you think Gohan was against Dabura?

Not very, however, he also got a lot weaker in those seven years.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

The situations are still different, though. It was Goku's first time being shown as a Super Saiyan 2 and he quickly reverted back right after. We've actually seen Gohan as a Super Saiyan 2 with the traits a few chapters before.

We've also seen him with the aura even after Cell did significant damage to him, so the lack of sparks can't be because he was weaker.

Yes, AFTER he started powering up a Kamehameha, in other words, when he was starting to rise above only 50% power. So that example still proves nothing.

It doesn't matter. He was still far weaker than he was a few mins ago, with Piccolo even mentioning his Chi was still far too weak once he began to power-up. So even if he was going above 50% power, it wasn't by much.

It also doesn't help that Gohan's aura is the exact same as it was when he powered-up to fight Dabra for round 2--which was after he replenished his energy with a senzu. So that's done.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Seriously, just stop. You're digging a bigger hole for yourself. You're arguing with blatant facts in favor of how you view the story. Gohan was a SSJ. You can argue until you're blue in the face, but you'll still be wrong.

[hleV]

Ok, how about this? Suppose Piccolo were to state after his three years of training "I've become as strong as Freeza!". In that hypothetical scenario, is it more likely that he meant...

A) Freeza using only about a third of his power against Goku?

B) Freeza using half of his power against Goku?

C) Freeza using 100% of his power against Goku?

I can easily see Piccolo referring to Freeza anywhere between 10% and 50% of his final form. 100% only goes if he's sensed it.

[Kaboom]

Ok, how about this? Suppose Piccolo were to state after his three years of training "I've become as strong as Freeza!". In that hypothetical scenario, is it more likely that he meant...

Again, Goku said Dabra was "about" or "around" as strong as Cell. Which means "roughly comparable to but not exactly."

It doesn't matter anyway. We get our clarity on Dabra's strength from his fight with Gohan. Since Gohan was only a Super Saiyan 1, and fought about evenly with Dabra, that means Dabra was significantly less powerful than Super Perfect Cell. Which doesn't contradict Goku's line because it was a vague comparison.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Yeah, it's really not that strong of a comparison to begin with:

Goku: “Yeah…Well, even if that wasn’t him at full force…I think that before he would have been a frightening opponent, but…7 years ago there was a guy called ‘Cell’…[Dabra]’s probably about as strong as him…”

Cell was frightening at many different points during the Cell saga, so it's a very loose comparison.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Ok, how about this? Suppose Piccolo were to state after his three years of training "I've become as strong as Freeza!". In that hypothetical scenario, is it more likely that he meant...

Again, Goku said Dabra was "about" or "around" as strong as Cell. Which means "roughly comparable to but not exactly."

It doesn't matter anyway. We get our clarity on Dabra's strength from his fight with Gohan. Since Gohan was only a Super Saiyan 1, and fought about evenly with Dabra, that means Dabra was significantly less powerful than Super Perfect Cell. Which doesn't contradict Goku's line because it was a vague comparison.

He actually said probably about . He isn't to sure of himself .

[Kaboom]

Yeah, and I just remembered that as a Majin minion of Bobbidi, they can't actually sense Dabra's ki. Vegeta said they were judging him based on his movements. So Goku's really taking a shot in the dark here.

[Kamiccolo9]

Let me see if I get this right. You're saying that Gohan is a SSJ2 during the fight with Dabura, and that Dabura is on the level of Super Perfect Cell, right? And that the reason Gohan doesn't demonstrate the characteristics of SSJ2 is due to losing his power during the fight?

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P10.5-6
Context: as Gohan fights Dabra
Vegeta: “Damn it…this is pissing me off! Alright, I’ll finish this!”
Goku: “Don’t, Vegeta! Let [Gohan] do it. It ain’t like he’s completely losing.”

Gohan is at least somewhat holding his own here. If he had lost a huge amount of his power, then Dabura should be stomping him. Yet he isn't. And later, Dabura considers him trash. Dabura isn't even breathing hard at the end of their fight, while Gohan is exhausted. But still, Gohan is managing to hold his own. Assuming that Gohan and Dabura were roughly equal in the beginning, then if Gohan had lost a large portion of his power, while Dabura appears to be in fine condition the entire fight, then Dabura should have crushed Gohan, yet Goku is saying that Gohan is hanging in there.

[Fionordequester]

It doesn't matter. He was still far weaker than he was a few mins ago, with Piccolo even mentioning his Chi was still far too weak once he began to power-up. So even if he was going above 50% power, it wasn't by much.

All Piccolo says is...

Chapter: 415 (DBZ 221), P10.2
Context: after Gohan fires his Kamehameha
Piccolo: “It no use…! Gohan’s ki is weaker after all…”

He never said by how much weaker Gohan's ki was.

It also doesn't help that Gohan's aura is the exact same as it was when he powered-up to fight Dabra for round 2--which was after he replenished his energy with a senzu. So that's done.

Admittedly, I can't find an in-universe answer as to why Gohan's aura is different here than it was in the World Tournament, however, I CAN theorize that Mr. Toriyama decided at some point "you know, I really should stop drawing Gohan with lightning now that I'm planning on drawing Goku and Vegeta that way. Don't want people getting confused as to how strong he is!".

EDIT: Oh wait, looks like there's more posts. Give me some time, alright?

I can easily see Piccolo referring to Freeza anywhere between 10% and 50% of his final form. 100% only goes if he's sensed it.

Alright, then let's suppose that Piccolo HAD indeed sensed Frieza at 100% power. Which one of the three options I've listed is more likely?

He actually said probably about . He isn't to sure of himself

When has he ever been wrong?

Yeah, and I just remembered that as a Majin minion of Bobbidi, they can't actually sense Dabra's ki. Vegeta said they were judging him based on his movements. So Goku's really taking a shot in the dark here.

And where was that again? I just checked the Strength Checker and couldn't find it.

Let me see if I get this right. You're saying that Gohan is a SSJ2 during the fight with Dabura, and that Dabura is on the level of Super Perfect Cell, right?

Nah, I was just saying that Gohan was SSJ2. I don't think the leap from Perfect Cell to Super Perfect Cell is as big as the leap from SSJ1 to SSJ2, otherwise Kid Gohan would never have had even the slightest chance of winning that Kamehameha battle considering how injured he was. Also, if I remember right, the fact that I'm not claiming Dabura=Super Perfect Cell makes the 2nd half of your argument invalid, at least against mine.

To clarify, I believe that Dabura was somewhere in the range of Full Power Perfect Cell-Super Perfect Cell.

And that the reason Gohan doesn't demonstrate the characteristics of SSJ2 is due to losing his power during the fight?

Actually, that WAS the theory before I realized that Gohan had sparks at the World Tournament. Now it's that Mr. Toriyama simply thought that he needed an artistic cue to make Goku and Vegeta seem stronger despite them all having SSJ2.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Except Gohan is the one who said how much weaker he was. Yeah, Goku encourages him to fight back, but he's still much weaker after taking Cell's blast because he told us as much. I see no reason why he'd lie about it.

That'd be a weird in-universe reason.

[Fionordequester]

I see no reason why he'd lie about it.

Well what I'm saying is that Gohan STOPPED being that much weaker the moment he started powering up his Kamehameha.

[Fionordequester]

I would edit a previous post regarding how strong I think Dabura is, but since there are some more posters coming this way, I'm going to wait. Just know that I'm going to amend that one.

[Kamiccolo9]

Yeah, and I just remembered that as a Majin minion of Bobbidi, they can't actually sense Dabra's ki. Vegeta said they were judging him based on his movements. So Goku's really taking a shot in the dark here.

And where was that again? I just checked the Strength Checker and couldn't find it.

It's in the manga on the page right before the one where Yakon shows up.

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.1-4
Context: after Kaioshin again warns against unleashing Boo
Vegeta: “Hmph…The way things are going, this ‘Majin Boo’ guy isn’t going to be anything special, is he? Just like that ‘Dabra’ jerk…[ ] I’m saying that this ‘Dabra’ guy doesn’t seem as bad as you two feared. Looking at his attacks and movement outside earlier, it seems that if we just watch out for his spit, then we should manage something. I can’t call Kibito anything but a bumbler for getting done-in like that…”
Kaioshin: “…Is-is that true, Son Goku?...”
Goku: “Yeah…Well, even if that wasn’t him at full force…I think that before he would have been a frightening opponent, but…7 years ago there was a guy called ‘Cell’…[Dabra]’s probably about as strong as him…"

He never mentions Dabura's power, just his attacks, his spit, and his movements.

[Fionordequester]

It's in the manga on the page right before the one where Yakon shows up.

You mean this one? Because I'm not seeing where it's stated that the Z Warriors can't sense their opponents Ki.

[Kamiccolo9]

Yep, that's it. Goku seems to be guessing Dabura's power level, rather than actually sensing it.

[Fionordequester]

Yep, that's it. Goku seems to be guessing Dabura's power level, rather than actually sensing it.

...But neither you or Kaboom actually know? The Z Fighters have just about ALWAYS been general like that in regards to power levels, all the back to when Goku fought Vegeta for the very first time, and though "jeez, this guy is even stronger than I expected him to be!".

EDIT: Actually, I now am about 99.99% sure that Kaboom was wrong about that based on this...



So unless I'm reading that wrong, Goku CAN indeed sense their energy.