Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
dbzfan7 wrote:If that's really all you've got to say back, then there's nothing else to carry out this conversation. If the wish was really for only good people. Then no looters, muggers, small time bad guys, or anything in that regard are coming back. Yet Pilaf and his cronies came back, solidifying that you don't have to be good to be wished back, just not super evil like Dabura or Babidi.
I'm not saying that Vegeta is a good guy only because of Porunga. There is also the SSGod ritual, and his actions against Pure Boo & Beerus. Vegeta cared enough for the Earth to have them kill Boo with their own power (through the Genki Dama), and he was even willing to throw away his pride in order to protect the Earth from Beerus.
Toei's Bardock is also different from Toriyama's too.
Not the same thing at all. Toei's Vegeta went through additional character development after the end of the manga, and Toriyama's Vegeta is going through additional (and similar to Toei's) character development now as well. With Bardock, Toriyama just created his own different version.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
dbzfan7 wrote:If that's really all you've got to say back, then there's nothing else to carry out this conversation. If the wish was really for only good people. Then no looters, muggers, small time bad guys, or anything in that regard are coming back. Yet Pilaf and his cronies came back, solidifying that you don't have to be good to be wished back, just not super evil like Dabura or Babidi.
I'm not saying that Vegeta is a good guy only because of Porunga. There is also the SSGod ritual, and his actions against Pure Boo & Beerus. Vegeta cared enough for the Earth to have them kill Boo with their own power (through the Genki Dama), and he was even willing to throw away his pride in order to protect the Earth from Beerus.
Toei's Bardock is also different from Toriyama's too.
Not the same thing at all. Toei's Vegeta went through additional character development after the end of the manga, and Toriyama's Vegeta is going through additional (and similar to Toei's) character development now as well. With Bardock, Toriyama just created his own different version.
The freaking Kintoun is a better judge of character than the SSJ God ritual. His actions against Kid Boo? Oh you mean let's make the whole thing way harder than it needs to be by not fusing or calling in Gohan or Gotenks. If anything that was another stupid call from him. Also he's protecting his family more than the earth with Beerus. He hardly cares about anyone beyond them. He isn't going to give a shit it he saw some human corpses so long as they aren't someone he cares about.
Point is he made a different Bardock that a lot of people despise. So comparing Toei Vegeta to his Vegeta is silly considering Toriyama doesn't give a shit about following what Toei lays out.
Besides this is a thread if Vegeta is to easily forgiven, not if he's a good or bad guy right now.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Anyway, I guess you can say Vegeta was forgiven too easily, but personally I think pretty much every character who switched sides was forgiven too easily.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
Kid Buu wrote:... but personally I think pretty much every character who switched sides was forgiven too easily.
I don't agree with that.
The worst Tenshinhan did was break Yamcha's leg. Kind of a dick move, but the way he turned away from his master and how he helped the gang agaisnt Piccolo Daimao is more than enough to forgive that.
Piccolo Jr is significantly different from Piccolo Daimao and didn't actually murder anyone. He did try to kill Goku and take over the world, but since he sacrificed his own life to save Gohan and eventually lost interest in being evil, its not very hard to forgive him.
Marco Polo wrote:Tenshinhan agrees with you as he never forgave him.
You know, I've actually been thinking about this comment for quite a while now, but only now decided to reply to it.. how did you come to this statement? did Ten say something when he was resurrected, or something else? I am very curious...
Marco Polo wrote:Tenshinhan agrees with you as he never forgave him.
You know, I've actually been thinking about this comment for quite a while now, but only now decided to reply to it.. how did you come to this statement? did Ten say something when he was resurrected, or something else? I am very curious...
During the Cell arc, in the heavenly realm, Ten says that Vegeta is a little shit for killing him and his friends, and that Vegeta tried to destroy the Earth. He refuses to wear the armor of the saiyans because of that.
My favourite art style (and animation) outside Toriyama who worked on Dragon Ball: Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru, Masaki Satō, Minoru Maeda, Takeo Ide, Hisashi Eguchi, Katsumi Aoshima, Tomekichi Takeuchi, Masahiro Shimanuki, Kazuya Hisada
rereboy wrote:
The worst Tenshinhan did was break Yamcha's leg. Kind of a dick move, but the way he turned away from his master and how he helped the gang agaisnt Piccolo Daimao is more than enough to forgive that.
Still a very big dick move, I have not forget.
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DieHard wrote:
Still a very big dick move, I have not forget.
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Compared to Vegeta's genocide of billions of beings? . A broken leg is meaningless. Especially since Tenshinhan asks for Yamcha's forgiveness at the end of the Tournament. Vegeta never did that.
. A broken leg is meaningless. Especially since Tenshinhan asks for Yamcha's forgiveness at the end of the Tournament. Vegeta never did that.