Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

[SupremeKai25]

I wouldn't say he looks NOTHING like Kaioshin. The pinkish orange hue to his skin and the mohawk and the clothing all make him look like a Kaioshin.

That's also why he has a creative design in my opinion. Usually villains in Dragon Ball look like weird monsters that have never been seen before in the story, but Zamasu is unique in this regard, since he is a member of a species that was established in the universe long before his debut. His background also makes him special. It was a nice change of pace to have a villain who has a more "grounded" backstory. Which is why his design works so well, because you'd never expect an average-looking Kai to harbor such dark desires within him.

[Thunderbird]

So is nobody going to make an excuse for how the last six arcs in a row have been uncreative?

[Matches Malone]

So is nobody going to make an excuse for how the last six arcs in a row have been uncreative?

To be fair, Toyotaro has done an overall good job keeping things original. We've got a new villain instead of someone classic, He's got actual techniques instead of just being able to punch harder than the last guy, and Vegeta is doing his own thing instead of the usual "I'll just do what Kakarot's doing". We might, just might, get to see Vegeta save the day for a change. With that said, there are issues, such as everyone holding off the villains while they wait for Goku AGAIN.

Despite not being perfect, I'd take a flawed attempt at something new over another movie remake (Broly), an underwhelming tournament, or a watered down version of a previous arc (Zamasu/Black).

[ABED]

I'd honestly take the Zamasu arc over the Cell arc. It's more emotionally compelling, warts and all.

With that said, there are issues, such as everyone holding off the villains while they wait for Goku AGAIN.

What I see from comments like this "Batman saves the day in his own comics again?"

[Matches Malone]

What I see from comments like this "Batman saves the day in his own comics again?"

I don't mean for Goku not to save the day (although I hope it'll be Vegeta this time), I just think they could do something with the others instead of them just holding off for Goku. At this point it's just a waste of time.

[Thunderbird]

I'd honestly take the Zamasu arc over the Cell arc. It's more emotionally compelling, warts and all.

It was unoriginal and most the main characters were sidelined, again. Gohan barely even showed up. It was all about Goku, Vegeta and Trunks.

Back in Z they gave other characters at least something to be a part of. That was yet another flaw with Super up until the Tournament of Power.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I wonder why Thunderbird hasnt posted in the "How Creative was Dragon Ball" thread. Maybe its because even he doesnt think Dragon Ball was ever creative.

[Thunderbird]

I wonder why Thunderbird hasnt posted in the "How Creative was Dragon Ball" thread. Maybe its because even he doesnt think Dragon Ball was ever creative.

Because I already brought that up here.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I meant that you have NOT put your money where your mouth is and told us that Dragon Ball was actually creative at one point in its prime. Otherwise this thread is completely pointless because you arent complaining about an actual decay in quality.

[ABED]

Okay so it was Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks, but I'm not seeing the negative there. DB is not an ensemble show. It's not about a group of super powered martial artists out to save the day.

Back in Z they gave other characters at least something to be a part of. That was yet another flaw with Super up until the Tournament of Power.

There's also a lot of wasting time until Goku arrives to do something in DBZ. In this case, Trunks kills Black/Zamasu

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

What I see from comments like this "Batman saves the day in his own comics again?"

I don't mean for Goku not to save the day (although I hope it'll be Vegeta this time), I just think they could do something with the others instead of them just holding off for Goku. At this point it's just a waste of time.

Yeah. With characters like Batman the emphasis is on how the day is saved. What trick is Batman is going to bust out. Not to mention Oracle and Robin get plenty of oppurtunities for heroics because each individual life at risk is treated as important. So while the beats are very similar, there's lots of oppurtunities to play with the formula. Same deal with episodic shows like Star Trek. You know the threat is going to come in one of three varieties (diplomatic crisis, dangerous machine/otherworldly being, or rival super powers) but that never holds the series back.

Dragon Ball is in the unfortunate position where every side character has completed their story arc, individual lives are irrelevant, and the lead has reached such an absurd level of power he could fight off an entire army of mooks and realistically go on to beat the big bad evil guy.

[Thunderbird]

There's also a lot of wasting time until Goku arrives to do something in DBZ. In this case, Trunks kills Black/Zamasu

Which allowed other characters to do something. Built the story and tension up prior to the main battles taking place.

Not that you get that anymore as Goku Black was introduced and about 2 episodes later he was already fighting Goku. Moro was introduced and in the very next chapter he was already fighting Vegeta.

Yet another reason why Super pales in comparison to Z. Trunks also never killed Zamasu.

[ABED]

There's also a lot of wasting time until Goku arrives to do something in DBZ. In this case, Trunks kills Black/Zamasu

Which allowed other characters to do something. Built the story and tension up prior to the main battles taking place.

Not that you get that anymore as Goku Black was introduced and about 2 episodes later he was already fighting Goku. Moro was introduced and in the very next chapter he was already fighting Vegeta.

Yet another reason why Super pales in comparison to Z. Trunks also never killed Zamasu.

False, he did kill Zamasu, the thing that threatens to take over that timeline is some weird gaseous form, but Trunks did kill his physical body. The explanation with the whole tear in reality never made sense.

There's building tension and then there's treading water. Given the length of DBZ even in the manga, it's a lot of the latter. Wasting time doesn't amount do doing much. For the first few times, it works, but it's a formula that wears out its welcome which goes back to my point of DBZ lacking creativity by using that formula too often.

Yeah. With characters like Batman the emphasis is on how the day is saved. What trick is Batman is going to bust out. Not to mention Oracle and Robin get plenty of oppurtunities for heroics because each individual life at risk is treated as important. So while the beats are very similar, there's lots of oppurtunities to play with the formula. Same deal with episodic shows like Star Trek. You know the threat is going to come in one of three varieties (diplomatic crisis, dangerous machine/otherworldly being, or rival super powers) but that never holds the series back.

Dragon Ball is in the unfortunate position where every side character has completed their story arc, individual lives are irrelevant, and the lead has reached such an absurd level of power he could fight off an entire army of mooks and realistically go on to beat the big bad evil guy.

Batman and DB aren't Star Trek. Trek by it's nature was an ensemble. It's basically a Navy vessel so they need an entire crew for the ship to function. It's a series about working together to achieve a common goal. DB is about martial arts which is an individual pursuit. DB is about Goku. In Batman, Batman has supporting players and they have a role to play, but it's all in service of Bruce's story. I wish people would understand that and stop before they draw a parallel to fundamentally different stories. Goku usually doesn't beat big bads on his own, but for some reason, unless someone else is does something to directly take down the villain, they don't do anything. It makes zero sense. Goku is the main character so he's naturally going to be the one to do the bulk of the work and usually delivers the death blow, but Gohan and Kuririn and Piccolo even distracting someone like Freeza for a moment or stopping him from killing Goku at a vulnerable moment is valuable. Apparently that's not good enough.Is it not enough for Tenshinhan or Yajirobe to save Goku at precarious moments?

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

but Gohan and Kuririn and Piccolo even distracting someone like Freeza for a moment or stopping him from killing Goku at a vulnerable moment is valuable.

No, it's not.

[ABED]

but Gohan and Kuririn and Piccolo even distracting someone like Freeza for a moment or stopping him from killing Goku at a vulnerable moment is valuable.

No, it's not.

Okay, that's super convincing. In all seriousness, what value is saying "no it's not" to this discussion?

[Thunderbird]

There's building tension and then there's treading water. Given the length of DBZ even in the manga, it's a lot of the latter. Wasting time doesn't amount do doing much. For the first few times, it works, but it's a formula that wears out its welcome which goes back to my point of DBZ lacking creativity by using that formula too often.

Yeah Z did the former. Super can't even do the latter. It's overly fast paced to the point it ruins whatever potential it could have which is not much to begin with considering the lack of anything original in each arc but it's why people referred to it as the Goku and Vegeta show for so long.

[ABED]

There's building tension and then there's treading water. Given the length of DBZ even in the manga, it's a lot of the latter. Wasting time doesn't amount do doing much. For the first few times, it works, but it's a formula that wears out its welcome which goes back to my point of DBZ lacking creativity by using that formula too often.

Yeah Z did the former. Super can't even do the latter. It's overly fast paced to the point it ruins whatever potential it could have which is not much to begin with considering the lack of anything original in each arc but it's why people referred to it as the Goku and Vegeta show for so long.

Wait, it's overly fast paced? When? DBZ tries to build tension but the last 2.5 arcs use the take Goku out early formula and by then it was old hat.

Some call it that because they're under this ridiculous assumption that DBZ (because they don't take DB into account) was an ensemble show.

[Kataphrut]

So is nobody going to make an excuse for how the last six arcs in a row have been uncreative?

To be fair, Toyotaro has done an overall good job keeping things original. We've got a new villain instead of someone classic, He's got actual techniques instead of just being able to punch harder than the last guy, and Vegeta is doing his own thing instead of the usual "I'll just do what Kakarot's doing". We might, just might, get to see Vegeta save the day for a change. With that said, there are issues, such as everyone holding off the villains while they wait for Goku AGAIN.

Despite not being perfect, I'd take a flawed attempt at something new over another movie remake (Broly), an underwhelming tournament, or a watered down version of a previous arc (Zamasu/Black).

I would argue the development with Vegeta is the only thing keeping the newest arc from being a total retread. Moro is unique in theory, but in practice he's just a standard "for the evulz" bad guy. He's primarily a mashup of Piccolo and Cell with a bit of Babidi thrown in.

Also, it's got the same basic plot as Broly and Resurrection F - bad guy doing a mischief, Goku and Vegeta go fight him, taking turns to do so. Except now they're reusing the second act of Resurrection F as well with the side characters fighting off henchmen, struggling with a stronger henchmen and being overwhelmed by the main villain just in time for Goku to finish training and make a comeback. The only thing different is that Vegeta hasn't arrived and everyone is expecting that means he'll be the one to win. And that could still well happen, but it doesn't shake up well for a story when everyone has already predicted what will happen months in advance.

Also, where's this idea that Moro is the first villain with original techniques? Beerus, Hit, Black, Zamasu and even Jiren to a degree were all unique in their fighting styles. Freeza and Broly obviously aren't original, but that's because those are both new takes on old favourites.

[Thunderbird]

Wait, it's overly fast paced? When? DBZ tries to build tension but the last 2.5 arcs use the take Goku out early formula and by then it was old hat.

Super? I explained why. Them taking Goku out the arc early has nothing to do with tension.

All of Dragon Ball Super is old hat because none of its ideas are new period. Not just specific plot details, none of it.

Some call it that because they're under this ridiculous assumption that DBZ (because they don't take DB into account) was an ensemble show.

Nobody thinks, nobody. It's a series with an extensive cast of good characters of which Goku is the main one. Even when other characters were no longer involved in the big fights anymore they still had the characters appear and do there own things.

Dragon Ball Super was the Goku and Vegeta show. Until the Tournament of Power most the other characters even main ones like Gohan did next to nothing.

[Thunderbird]

We've got a new villain instead of someone classic, He's got actual techniques instead of just being able to punch harder than the last guy, and Vegeta is doing his own thing instead of the usual "I'll just do what Kakarot's doing". We might, just might, get to see Vegeta save the day for a change. With that said, there are issues, such as everyone holding off the villains while they wait for Goku AGAIN.

He may be a new villain but his history is a copy of Buu, his appearance yet another animal, his desire to get the Dragon Balls for youth has been done with Piccolo, Slug and Mechikabura, his personality is nothing new and his abilities which was the one thing to allow to be different has only boiled down to him absorbing energy to get stronger like the Androids.

What they do with Vegeta is the only hope for anything original in this entire arc and been it's going on over for a year.