GT and misogyny

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JulieYBM
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:37 am

Matches Malone wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:36 am
Planetnamek wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:29 amAccept that some people have legitimate problems with how female characters are portrayed in Dragon Ball.
Does this apply to people who have problems with Kale and Culifla being overpowered and badly written ? I'm asking for a friend.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Planetnamek » Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:41 am

Matches Malone wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:36 am
Planetnamek wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:29 amAccept that some people have legitimate problems with how female characters are portrayed in Dragon Ball.
Does this apply to people who have problems with Kale and Culifla being overpowered and badly written ? I'm asking for a friend.
The characters certainly could've been better written but I definitely wouldn't call them overpowered. I've seen far too many strong female characters get called "overpowered" when they really aren't(Rey from the new Star Wars films comes to mind).
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:44 am

Planetnamek wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:41 amThe characters certainly could've been better written but I definitely wouldn't call them overpowered.
They were extremely overpowered, as they were able to individually force Goku to not only use SsjG, but Blue as well. Fused, they pushed him to UI. 2 newly reached Ssj2s had no business pushing him beyond 3. I do give the manga credit for bringing things down to a more believable level by having Kefla fight Gohan instead, as that's more reasonable. That's not to say they shouldn't be on Blue's level, but it should be earned over time. I do have the same issue with others being that strong, so it's not exclusive to them.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Gochu » Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:45 am

Planetnamek wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:08 am
First off nobody is being indoctrinated here so grow up, we're just adults having a discussion and 15 years ago this still would've been a discussion because I remember going on the IMDB forums in 2004 and there was I shit you not an actual debate over whether or not the Spongebob movie was sexist(and I vividly remember one jackass unironically used the dumbass term "feminazi" on that thread so the more things the more they stay the same I guess). I didn't agree that it was, but pretending like these discussions simply didn't exist back then is just plain ignorant and naive.
We are all always being indoctrinated. Whether it was in times of war or today there is no getting around it. There is also no arguing these issues are a modern political hot-button to a degree that is unlike anything before in the past 30 years. American politics has polarized its country with these issues, which is why the average person wasn't worrying about "misogyny", "sexism", "representation", or "diversity" to anywhere near the degree they are today. Shows from 10 to 20 years ago were more focused on really dialing in on making a story as believable and excellent as they could for their particular reality they were portraying; nowadays one must adhere to a smorgasbord of political checklists to not upset people. Heck, you could not make old Star Wars, Dragonball Z, or The Sopranos today -- you simply couldn't do it, and if you somehow could there would be severe backlash from critics and the public with fine-tooth comb with issues like lack of female/race representation, o physical prowess/emotions/etc of characters, white-washing, "microaggressions", etc. Also, the very fact you associate my views, what I've said so far as "alt-right" is proof to that indoctrination.

The rest of your post is simply ad-hominem attacks on me, to try and slander my character in order to strengthen your position because you can't have a healthy discussion with someone who has opinions you disagree with.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Gochu » Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:45 am

Planetnamek wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:08 am
First off nobody is being indoctrinated here so grow up, we're just adults having a discussion and 15 years ago this still would've been a discussion because I remember going on the IMDB forums in 2004 and there was I shit you not an actual debate over whether or not the Spongebob movie was sexist(and I vividly remember one jackass unironically used the dumbass term "feminazi" on that thread so the more things the more they stay the same I guess). I didn't agree that it was, but pretending like these discussions simply didn't exist back then is just plain ignorant and naive.
We are all always being indoctrinated. Whether it was in times of war or today there is no getting around it. There is also no arguing these issues are a modern political hot-button to a degree that is unlike anything before in the past 30 years. American politics has polarized its country with these issues, which is why the average person wasn't worrying about "misogyny", "sexism", "representation", or "diversity" to anywhere near the degree they are today. Shows from 10 to 20 years ago were more focused on really dialing in on making a story as believable and excellent as they could for their particular reality they were portraying; nowadays one must adhere to a smorgasbord of political checklists to not upset people. Heck, you could not make old Star Wars, Dragonball Z, or The Sopranos today -- you simply couldn't do it, and if you somehow could there would be severe backlash from critics and the public with fine-tooth comb with issues like lack of female/race representation, o physical prowess/emotions/etc of characters, white-washing, "microaggressions", etc. Also, the very fact you associate my views, what I've said so far as "alt-right" is proof to that indoctrination.

The rest of your post is simply ad-hominem attacks on me, to try and slander my character in order to strengthen your position because you can't have a healthy discussion with someone who has opinions you disagree with.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Gochu » Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:46 am

Planetnamek wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:08 am
Matches Malone wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:59 am
Gochu wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:53 amDragonball is largely about a warrior race of testosterone-overboard monkey men beating each other to death for the thrill of battle. This is a masculine trait and is why it's reserved mostly for men. This doesn't make it misogynistic.
People nowadays expect everything to cater to everyone and will go on a witch hunt on the creators if it doesn't.
No that's not remotely true at all. Cancel culture is not a thing that actually exists, it's a bogus term made up by right-wing lunatics(who contradict themselves by claiming "x is being cancelled!" one minute and then calling for a boycott of something else the next minute)

I think Julie makes some very good points.
Gochu wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:53 am Dragonball is largely about a warrior race of testosterone-overboard monkey men beating each other to death for the thrill of battle. This is a masculine trait and is why it's reserved mostly for men. This doesn't make it misogynistic.

Anyone who disagrees, if biology has no ground here, should ask their mother, girlfriend, female friends, or simply random female strangers their affinity towards physical violence and then run comparison with their father, brother, male friends, or random male strangers. If anyone says that females enjoy the act of consentual physical violence to the same degree as men, they're lying, or are simply asking only their peers from a similar background/ideology (e.g. your entire social circle are devote Jainists, aristocratic, or effeminate). This is why this would be best carried out asking random strangers of both sexes that differ in ideologies/political ideologies.

Since fictional works mimic a lot of concepts from real-world reality, it is perfectly reasonable that virtually all of the fighters are men. And there isn't any reason why there should be more female fighters, and even if there were they would quickly become eclipsed in terms of power by the male fighters in DBZ (making them a pointless addition). Heck, virtually all of the human male fighters were eclipsed by the saiyans in mid-later DBZ.

However, I would argue that DB actually did give female fighters their dues, especially in Dragonball. In Dragonball, we had characters like Launch, Ranfan, and Chi-Chi. If you were to go to a gender non-exclusive World Martial Arts Tournament where people are beating each other half to death, I suspect you would see either no females or a very, very few female outliers willing to fight bare-knuckled against men. In that way, it was very accurate representation. Additionally, I'd say these female characters appropriately became irrelevant in the show when it made sense to do so, because they couldn't keep up with the males. Again the same thing happened with the male human fighters (meaning it's not even gender-specific) in mid-late DBZ, when it made sense to do so.

Also, female characters were part of the saiyan race, and because saiyans are natural fighters that crave battle, they appeared to equally or at least enjoy fighting like their male counter-parts. The reason we do not see these female saiyans is because, of course, they were all wiped out when planet Vegeta died out.

So no, I don't think DB is misogynistic. And I really do not think this thread's premise would even exist in the minds of 98 percent of people here if we, say, were spontaneously transferred into a reality where we were all the exact same age as we are now but in a world that was 15 years ago.

Current world politics has indoctrinated the masses into believing femininity is wrong and that women must act and be perceived as acting/being like men despite hundreds of thousands of years of biology in contrary. Modern day winning-side political virtue signaling should be kept out of everything except politics, especially if we want to have quality anime rather than anime infused with political propaganda which will inevitably make it worse -- we have Hollywood as a perfect current example.
Wow there's so much wrong with this blatantly ill-informed post I don't even know where to start :roll: First off nobody is being indoctrinated here so grow up, we're just adults having a discussion and 15 years ago this still would've been a discussion because I remember going on the IMDB forums in 2004 and there was I shit you not an actual debate over whether or not the Spongebob movie was sexist(and I vividly remember one jackass unironically used the dumbass term "feminazi" on that thread so the more things the more they stay the same I guess). I didn't agree that it was, but pretending like these discussions simply didn't exist back then is just plain ignorant and naive.

Nobody believes femininity is wrong just because they dare to criticize this one aspect of your precious show, it's not perfect so don't pretend like DBZ hasn't aged badly in at least some areas(sorry but Roshi creeping up on Bulma isn't remotely funny or cute) it's OK to like something while still acknowledging the problematic aspects of it(see also Harry Potter and pretty much anything by Lovecraft).

Also newsflash, EVERY piece of fictional media is "political", there is simply no avoiding it. Let me guess, by "political propaganda" you mean "anything that challenges the status quo" right? Hollywood has made some damn good movies over the past few years, let me guess you're one of those people that hates any movies that has LGBTQ or BIPOC people as leads that point out that bigotry still exists right? Sorry but Hollywood no longer has to cater exclusively to straight white males, you have plenty of movies still aimed at you, let the rest of the world have their films and stop acting like everyone must cater only to you.

There is anime with political propaganda like Attack on Titan, but i'm guessing that's not what you meant right? I'm guessing you think anything with strong female characters equals "propaganda" somehow.

If you sincerely believe this alt-right garbage, then this forum is definitely not the place for you. We already had someone get banned last year for going off on a deranged pro-Trump rant, so if I were you I wouldn't make such ill-informed posts.

Oh dear Kami I cannot wait for Kunzait to pick apart this post, if you thought I was thorough in debunking every bit of nonsense you said, you ain't seen nothing yet. :mrgreen:
We are all always being indoctrinated. Whether it was in times of war or today there is no getting around it. There is also no arguing these issues are a modern political hot-button to a degree that is unlike anything before in the past 30 years. American politics has polarized its country with these issues, which is why the average person wasn't worrying about "misogyny", "sexism", "representation", or "diversity" to anywhere near the degree they are today. Shows from 10 to 20 years ago were more focused on really dialing in on making a story as believable and excellent as they could for their particular reality they were portraying; nowadays one must adhere to a smorgasbord of political checklists to not upset people. Heck, you could not make old Star Wars, Dragonball Z, or The Sopranos today -- you simply couldn't do it, and if you somehow could there would be severe backlash from critics and the public with fine-tooth comb with issues like lack of female/race representation, o physical prowess/emotions/etc of characters, white-washing, "microaggressions", etc. Also, the very fact you associate my views, what I've said so far as "alt-right" is proof to that indoctrination.

The rest of your post is simply ad-hominem attacks on me, to try and slander my character in order to strengthen your position because you can't have a healthy discussion with someone who has opinions you disagree with.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:49 am

What about my post? What do you have to say about it?

BTW The problem lies more with the sexual assault and other stuff. That stuff IS awful.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Planetnamek » Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:57 am

Gochu wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:45 am
Planetnamek wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:08 am
First off nobody is being indoctrinated here so grow up, we're just adults having a discussion and 15 years ago this still would've been a discussion because I remember going on the IMDB forums in 2004 and there was I shit you not an actual debate over whether or not the Spongebob movie was sexist(and I vividly remember one jackass unironically used the dumbass term "feminazi" on that thread so the more things the more they stay the same I guess). I didn't agree that it was, but pretending like these discussions simply didn't exist back then is just plain ignorant and naive.
We are all always being indoctrinated. Whether it was in times of war or today there is no getting around it. There is also no arguing these issues are a modern political hot-button to a degree that is unlike anything before in the past 30 years. American politics has polarized its country with these issues, which is why the average person wasn't worrying about "misogyny", "sexism", "representation", or "diversity" to anywhere near the degree they are today. Shows from 10 to 20 years ago were more focused on really dialing in on making a story as believable and excellent as they could for their particular reality they were portraying; nowadays one must adhere to a smorgasbord of political checklists to not upset people. Heck, you could not make old Star Wars, Dragonball Z, or The Sopranos today -- you simply couldn't do it, and if you somehow could there would be severe backlash from critics and the public with fine-tooth comb with issues like lack of female/race representation, o physical prowess/emotions/etc of characters, white-washing, "microaggressions", etc. Also, the very fact you associate my views, what I've said so far as "alt-right" is proof to that indoctrination.

The rest of your post is simply ad-hominem attacks on me, to try and slander my character in order to strengthen your position because you can't have a healthy discussion with someone who has opinions you disagree with.
Wow the ignorance just keeps on coming doesn't it? :roll: Yes the "Average person" did in fact care deeply about those issues back then, granted it was easy for straight white males to ignore those issues back then because it didn't directly affect them and social media wasn't a thing yet, but that didn't mean those conversations were not happening.

The only thing a person really needs to do to not upset people is to not be an asshole, it's really not that hard, there's no "checklist" here, spare me your paranoid conspiracy theories.

Yes you absolutely could make those things today, they would just be different is all.

Nah if anyone's indoctrinated here it's you, the fact that you are spouting the exact same tiresome alt-right talking points i've seen regurgitated ad-nausuem by ignorant right-wing trolls like Stephen Crowder only proves my point.

The only one spouting ad-hominem nonsense here is you with your crazy rants about "indoctrination", people correcting you when you say something ignorant is not "attacking" you, get over it.

So a minority or an LGBTQ person should be forced to have a discussion with someone that has bigoted beliefs against them and wants them dead? Yeah no thanks, there's nothing remotely healthy about that. Some opinions are simply flat out wrong and not at all worth debating, like idiots who believe COVID or global warming is a hoax or people that believe mass-shootings like Sandy Hook were faked. You can't have discussions with bad-faith actors like them. Those people don't actually want debate anyways, they only want a platform to spout their ignorant beliefs but they are not owed one at all.

As someone with autism, I flat out refuse to have a discussion with an anti-vaxxer and i shouldn't have to, it's a complete and utter waste of my time and energy.

You need to stop following ignorant trolls like Bari Weiss, she's been spouting the exact same ignorant points that you are.

Discussions like this are common on this forum, I don't know why you are even on here at all if you expect all of your posts to go completely unchallenged.
Last edited by Planetnamek on Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:02 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Soppa Saia People » Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:58 am

JulieYBM wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:31 am "IT's BiOlOgY!!!111oneone"

Sweetie, I just wanna see a dumb cartoon I like not hate me and teach kids bad things. The horror.
seriously, when people bust that out, i honestly don't even get how they enjoy most media. like it's a show where monkeys fight slugs and said monkeys turn yellow, if you're spouting about biology for issues in the series, i just don't understand lol.

like it reminds me when i saw someone bust out that Alluka Has XX Chromosomes So He's A Boy. like, their fictional characters lmao.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Gochu » Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:06 am

Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:33 am
Gochu wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:53 am Dragonball is largely about a warrior race of testosterone-overboard monkey men beating each other to death for the thrill of battle. This is a masculine trait and is why it's reserved mostly for men. This doesn't make it misogynistic.

Anyone who disagrees, if biology has no ground here, should ask their mother, girlfriend, female friends, or simply random female strangers their affinity towards physical violence and then run comparison with their father, brother, male friends, or random male strangers. If anyone says that females enjoy the act of consentual physical violence to the same degree as men, they're lying, or are simply asking only their peers from a similar background/ideology (e.g. your entire social circle are devote Jainists, aristocratic, or effeminate). This is why this would be best carried out asking random strangers of both sexes that differ in ideologies/political ideologies.

Since fictional works mimic a lot of concepts from real-world reality, it is perfectly reasonable that virtually all of the fighters are men. And there isn't any reason why there should be more female fighters, and even if there were they would quickly become eclipsed in terms of power by the male fighters in DBZ (making them a pointless addition). Heck, virtually all of the human male fighters were eclipsed by the saiyans in mid-later DBZ.

However, I would argue that DB actually did give female fighters their dues, especially in Dragonball. In Dragonball, we had characters like Launch, Ranfan, and Chi-Chi. If you were to go to a gender non-exclusive World Martial Arts Tournament where people are beating each other half to death, I suspect you would see either no females or a very, very few female outliers willing to fight bare-knuckled against men. In that way, it was very accurate representation. Additionally, I'd say these female characters appropriately became irrelevant in the show when it made sense to do so, because they couldn't keep up with the males. Again the same thing happened with the male human fighters (meaning it's not even gender-specific) in mid-late DBZ, when it made sense to do so.

Also, female characters were part of the saiyan race, and because saiyans are natural fighters that crave battle, they appeared to equally or at least enjoy fighting like their male counter-parts. The reason we do not see these female saiyans is because, of course, they were all wiped out when planet Vegeta died out.

So no, I don't think DB is misogynistic. And I really do not think this thread's premise would even exist in the minds of 98 percent of people here if we, say, were spontaneously transferred into a reality where we were all the exact same age as we are now but in a world that was 15 years ago.

Current world politics has indoctrinated the masses into believing femininity is wrong and that women must act and be perceived as acting/being like men despite hundreds of thousands of years of biology in contrary. Modern day winning-side political virtue signaling should be kept out of everything except politics, especially if we want to have quality anime rather than anime infused with political propaganda which will inevitably make it worse -- we have Hollywood as a perfect current example.
First off this post is super wrong. Girls love action too, and NO, the fact that they do isnt them denying their femeninity. This is BEST EXEMPLIFIED by the Pretty Cure series. No where else can you find so much action involving cute and fluffy femenine girls.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuW4gfHJFPw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbQIFGF98rM

17 years. Its been on for 17 years. The producer for the series Takashi Washio famously said "Girls like to rampage too!" and none other than Daisuke Nishio, the director of DBZ, agreed.
My position isn't that some girls do not like violence; it's that by comparison men overwhelmingly do. And DBZ mirrored that perfectly acceptably. It simply wasn't and isn't misogynistic.

The overwhelming majority of viewers were not complaining about this 10-30 years ago when DBZ was still as it is today, extremely popular. So why is it such a hot-button issue today? Have all women suddenly changed in the past 30 years? Biologically no, politically yes. And that's your answer.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:09 am

I am going to surprise you by accepting that premise.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Gochu » Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:09 am

Soppa Saia People wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:58 am
JulieYBM wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:31 am "IT's BiOlOgY!!!111oneone"

Sweetie, I just wanna see a dumb cartoon I like not hate me and teach kids bad things. The horror.
seriously, when people bust that out, i honestly don't even get how they enjoy most media. like it's a show where monkeys fight slugs and said monkeys turn yellow, if you're spouting about biology for issues in the series, i just don't understand lol.

like it reminds me when i saw someone bust out that Alluka Has XX Chromosomes So He's A Boy. like, their fictional characters lmao.
If biology issues in a television show are irrelevant and inconsequential because they're "fictional characters", then why are you (or others) concerned with females not being as powerful in DBZ? They are only "fictional characters".

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Planetnamek » Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:15 am

Gochu wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:06 am
Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:33 am
Gochu wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:53 am Dragonball is largely about a warrior race of testosterone-overboard monkey men beating each other to death for the thrill of battle. This is a masculine trait and is why it's reserved mostly for men. This doesn't make it misogynistic.

Anyone who disagrees, if biology has no ground here, should ask their mother, girlfriend, female friends, or simply random female strangers their affinity towards physical violence and then run comparison with their father, brother, male friends, or random male strangers. If anyone says that females enjoy the act of consentual physical violence to the same degree as men, they're lying, or are simply asking only their peers from a similar background/ideology (e.g. your entire social circle are devote Jainists, aristocratic, or effeminate). This is why this would be best carried out asking random strangers of both sexes that differ in ideologies/political ideologies.

Since fictional works mimic a lot of concepts from real-world reality, it is perfectly reasonable that virtually all of the fighters are men. And there isn't any reason why there should be more female fighters, and even if there were they would quickly become eclipsed in terms of power by the male fighters in DBZ (making them a pointless addition). Heck, virtually all of the human male fighters were eclipsed by the saiyans in mid-later DBZ.

However, I would argue that DB actually did give female fighters their dues, especially in Dragonball. In Dragonball, we had characters like Launch, Ranfan, and Chi-Chi. If you were to go to a gender non-exclusive World Martial Arts Tournament where people are beating each other half to death, I suspect you would see either no females or a very, very few female outliers willing to fight bare-knuckled against men. In that way, it was very accurate representation. Additionally, I'd say these female characters appropriately became irrelevant in the show when it made sense to do so, because they couldn't keep up with the males. Again the same thing happened with the male human fighters (meaning it's not even gender-specific) in mid-late DBZ, when it made sense to do so.

Also, female characters were part of the saiyan race, and because saiyans are natural fighters that crave battle, they appeared to equally or at least enjoy fighting like their male counter-parts. The reason we do not see these female saiyans is because, of course, they were all wiped out when planet Vegeta died out.

So no, I don't think DB is misogynistic. And I really do not think this thread's premise would even exist in the minds of 98 percent of people here if we, say, were spontaneously transferred into a reality where we were all the exact same age as we are now but in a world that was 15 years ago.

Current world politics has indoctrinated the masses into believing femininity is wrong and that women must act and be perceived as acting/being like men despite hundreds of thousands of years of biology in contrary. Modern day winning-side political virtue signaling should be kept out of everything except politics, especially if we want to have quality anime rather than anime infused with political propaganda which will inevitably make it worse -- we have Hollywood as a perfect current example.
First off this post is super wrong. Girls love action too, and NO, the fact that they do isnt them denying their femeninity. This is BEST EXEMPLIFIED by the Pretty Cure series. No where else can you find so much action involving cute and fluffy femenine girls.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuW4gfHJFPw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbQIFGF98rM

17 years. Its been on for 17 years. The producer for the series Takashi Washio famously said "Girls like to rampage too!" and none other than Daisuke Nishio, the director of DBZ, agreed.
My position isn't that some girls do not like violence; it's that by comparison men overwhelmingly do. And DBZ mirrored that perfectly acceptably. It simply wasn't and isn't misogynistic.

The overwhelming majority of viewers were not complaining about this 10-30 years ago when DBZ was still as it is today, extremely popular. So why is it such a hot-button issue today? Have all women suddenly changed in the past 30 years? Biologically no, politically yes. And that's your answer.
Just because you didn't personally see it does not mean people weren't complaining about it.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:17 am

We were protesting this fucking shit since before anyone on this forum was born. We've just educated and strengthened ourselves to the point that the most privileged men cannot ignore us anymore.

Also, again. Hi. Girl here. I've been a member of this forum since I was a fifteen year old girl and a fan of Dragon Ball since I was an eight year old girl. Girls like shows about big, strong, bloodied, hot and sweaty men beating each other up, too. Dragon Ball was airing in an era where young girls were constantly exposed to it because of its massive popularity.

Girls have always liked Dragon Ball. We would like it if we weren't represented like fucking unrelatable mythical beasts is all.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:19 am

Gochu wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:09 am
Soppa Saia People wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:58 am
JulieYBM wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:31 am "IT's BiOlOgY!!!111oneone"

Sweetie, I just wanna see a dumb cartoon I like not hate me and teach kids bad things. The horror.
seriously, when people bust that out, i honestly don't even get how they enjoy most media. like it's a show where monkeys fight slugs and said monkeys turn yellow, if you're spouting about biology for issues in the series, i just don't understand lol.

like it reminds me when i saw someone bust out that Alluka Has XX Chromosomes So He's A Boy. like, their fictional characters lmao.
If biology issues in a television show are irrelevant and inconsequential because they're "fictional characters", then why are you (or others) concerned with females not being as powerful in DBZ? They are only "fictional characters".
We're upset because we're being represented negatively and this exists in a world where we are already marginalized and abused. Your comparison has no legs to stand on.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Gochu » Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:33 am

JulieYBM wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:19 am
Gochu wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:09 am
Soppa Saia People wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:58 am

seriously, when people bust that out, i honestly don't even get how they enjoy most media. like it's a show where monkeys fight slugs and said monkeys turn yellow, if you're spouting about biology for issues in the series, i just don't understand lol.

like it reminds me when i saw someone bust out that Alluka Has XX Chromosomes So He's A Boy. like, their fictional characters lmao.
If biology issues in a television show are irrelevant and inconsequential because they're "fictional characters", then why are you (or others) concerned with females not being as powerful in DBZ? They are only "fictional characters".
We're upset because we're being represented negatively and this exists in a world where we are already marginalized and abused. Your comparison has no legs to stand on.
Why is a lack of females beating men to near death in a show where men beat each other to near death mean that women are being represented negatively. Why is this a negative? Why does this have to be seen as a negative?

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:40 am

I'm not going to rehash all the already discussed issues (in this very thread!) with how women are treated in this series. 💜💜💜
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Gochu » Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:45 am

Planetnamek wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:57 am
Gochu wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:45 am
Planetnamek wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:08 am
First off nobody is being indoctrinated here so grow up, we're just adults having a discussion and 15 years ago this still would've been a discussion because I remember going on the IMDB forums in 2004 and there was I shit you not an actual debate over whether or not the Spongebob movie was sexist(and I vividly remember one jackass unironically used the dumbass term "feminazi" on that thread so the more things the more they stay the same I guess). I didn't agree that it was, but pretending like these discussions simply didn't exist back then is just plain ignorant and naive.
We are all always being indoctrinated. Whether it was in times of war or today there is no getting around it. There is also no arguing these issues are a modern political hot-button to a degree that is unlike anything before in the past 30 years. American politics has polarized its country with these issues, which is why the average person wasn't worrying about "misogyny", "sexism", "representation", or "diversity" to anywhere near the degree they are today. Shows from 10 to 20 years ago were more focused on really dialing in on making a story as believable and excellent as they could for their particular reality they were portraying; nowadays one must adhere to a smorgasbord of political checklists to not upset people. Heck, you could not make old Star Wars, Dragonball Z, or The Sopranos today -- you simply couldn't do it, and if you somehow could there would be severe backlash from critics and the public with fine-tooth comb with issues like lack of female/race representation, o physical prowess/emotions/etc of characters, white-washing, "microaggressions", etc. Also, the very fact you associate my views, what I've said so far as "alt-right" is proof to that indoctrination.

The rest of your post is simply ad-hominem attacks on me, to try and slander my character in order to strengthen your position because you can't have a healthy discussion with someone who has opinions you disagree with.
Wow the ignorance just keeps on coming doesn't it? :roll: Yes the "Average person" did in fact care deeply about those issues back then, granted it was easy for straight white males to ignore those issues back then because it didn't directly affect them and social media wasn't a thing yet, but that didn't mean those conversations were not happening.

The only thing a person really needs to do to not upset people is to not be an asshole, it's really not that hard, there's no "checklist" here, spare me your paranoid conspiracy theories.

Yes you absolutely could make those things today, they would just be different is all.

Nah if anyone's indoctrinated here it's you, the fact that you are spouting the exact same tiresome alt-right talking points i've seen regurgitated ad-nausuem by ignorant right-wing trolls like Stephen Crowder only proves my point.

The only one spouting ad-hominem nonsense here is you with your crazy rants about "indoctrination", people correcting you when you say something ignorant is not "attacking" you, get over it.

So a minority or an LGBTQ person should be forced to have a discussion with someone that has bigoted beliefs against them and wants them dead? Yeah no thanks, there's nothing remotely healthy about that. Some opinions are simply flat out wrong and not at all worth debating, like idiots who believe COVID or global warming is a hoax or people that believe mass-shootings like Sandy Hook were faked. You can't have discussions with bad-faith actors like them. Those people don't actually want debate anyways, they only want a platform to spout their ignorant beliefs but they are not owed one at all.

As someone with autism, I flat out refuse to have a discussion with an anti-vaxxer and i shouldn't have to, it's a complete and utter waste of my time and energy.

You need to stop following ignorant trolls like Bari Weiss, she's been spouting the exact same ignorant points that you are.

Discussions like this are common on this forum, I don't know why you are even on here at all if you expect all of your posts to go completely unchallenged.
The average person was in no way as concerned with these issues to the degree and prevalence they are now. Modern politics and social media are the ones perpetuating it. The political landscape has shifted and these are some of the current hot-topic issues. Also, there are even studies showing how polarized families are nowadays over these political issues, leading to unprecedented divorce and marital issues over one member being right vs left.
Yes you absolutely could make those things today, they would just be different is all.
Making them different would mean they are different; this still means you couldn't make them as they were today.
The only one spouting ad-hominem nonsense here is you with your crazy rants about "indoctrination", people correcting you when you say something ignorant is not "attacking" you, get over it.
I don't think you know what ad-hominem means: (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

You are the only doing this; you are the only one attacking me as a person rather than my viewpoints, and you're doing so unjustly because you can't have a rational conversation or debate.
Nah if anyone's indoctrinated here it's you, the fact that you are spouting the exact same tiresome alt-right talking points i've seen regurgitated ad-nausuem by ignorant right-wing trolls like Stephen Crowder only proves my point.
So a minority or an LGBTQ person should be forced to have a discussion with someone that has bigoted beliefs against them and wants them dead? Yeah no thanks, there's nothing remotely healthy about that. Some opinions are simply flat out wrong and not at all worth debating, like idiots who believe COVID or global warming is a hoax or people that believe mass-shootings like Sandy Hook were faked. You can't have discussions with bad-faith actors like them. Those people don't actually want debate anyways, they only want a platform to spout their ignorant beliefs but they are not owed one at all.
And some other people don't want debates either, they simply can't handle any opposition to their views (even in the context of a children's show) without resorting to ad-hominem attacks and then trying to correlate everything someone says as some sort of affiliation to what you believe is a Nazi group.

If you're saying political indoctrination doesn't exist, why are we seeing a literal knee-jerk reaction here, where if I say anything that even in the context of a television show you could construe as not perfectly mapping to your current personal political views, you feel I am the enemy. This is how political indoctrination works. I'll ask what have I personally done to you? I have done nothing yet you are hell-bent on attacking me personally. Why are you making me to be your enemy?

Also, you've now completely derailed the conversation from DBZ and a discussion of whether misogyny exists in a fictional world with fictional characters to a completely off-topic issue related to LGBTQ deaths, COVID validity, and mass shootings.

FYI: I am technically part of LGBTQ and dating a (minority) Asian. So now what do you have to say for yourself?

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Gochu » Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:45 am

JulieYBM wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:19 am
Gochu wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:09 am
Soppa Saia People wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:58 am

seriously, when people bust that out, i honestly don't even get how they enjoy most media. like it's a show where monkeys fight slugs and said monkeys turn yellow, if you're spouting about biology for issues in the series, i just don't understand lol.

like it reminds me when i saw someone bust out that Alluka Has XX Chromosomes So He's A Boy. like, their fictional characters lmao.
If biology issues in a television show are irrelevant and inconsequential because they're "fictional characters", then why are you (or others) concerned with females not being as powerful in DBZ? They are only "fictional characters".
We're upset because we're being represented negatively and this exists in a world where we are already marginalized and abused. Your comparison has no legs to stand on.
Give me a few examples.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Soppa Saia People » Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:47 am

Gochu wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:09 am If biology issues in a television show are irrelevant and inconsequential because they're "fictional characters", then why are you (or others) concerned with females not being as powerful in DBZ? They are only "fictional characters".
i actually don't recall making that argument at all thru out this thread but there's absolutely a difference between wanting fun characters like videl, #18, or 23rd budokai chichi to shine more and for dragon ball to have a more well rounded cast, and being like Well Actually Biology Wise It Makes Sense For Videl To Become A Background Character After Her One Fight.
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