The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

[SupremeKai25]

Toriyama didn't even create Krilin, the most important side character in the entire franchise, because he was created by the editor, and his style was completely different from what we've seen in DBZ (read Dr. Slump if you want to see the real Toriyama) but people are telling X and Y are not canon because there is not the Toriyama name on the cover. Are you F serious? Be real.

Both GT and Super are canon, and both series have almost nothing to do with the real Toriyama

Super is most certainly closer to Toriyama's original vision than that edgy/emo Cell saga.

I think this is pretty obvious.

[Jord]

Using "canon" as a validation for a show is silly. Being canon doesn't make is automatically better or worse.

As for Super, it's basically dead for a long time now. The anime ended 4 years ago. In those 4 years we got one movie but that was also 2 years ago and it's not like another Super movie is in the works with Daima approaching. Or another animated Super-project in general, despite people claiming that Super is on a break.
Just look at the games released during Super. FighterZ, DBZ: Kakarot. Both huge games that got branded as Z-games, with some Super (and GT) content as DLC. And as such, we'll get Super characters in the next games. They're nice extras.

B-b-but the manga...
Yeah there is a manga and it's apparently not big enough for Toei to either invest in it to animate it, or to merchandise it. If Toei can merchandise something, they will.

[SupremeKai25]

Using "canon" as a validation for a show is silly. Being canon doesn't make is automatically better or worse.

As for Super, it's basically dead for a long time now. The anime ended 4 years ago. In those 4 years we got one movie but that was also 2 years ago and it's not like another Super movie is in the works with Daima approaching. Or another animated Super-project in general, despite people claiming that Super is on a break.
Just look at the games released during Super. FighterZ, DBZ: Kakarot. Both huge games that got branded as Z-games, with some Super (and GT) content as DLC. And as such, we'll get Super characters in the next games. They're nice extras.

B-b-but the manga...
Yeah there is a manga and it's apparently not big enough for Toei to either invest in it to animate it, or to merchandise it. If Toei can merchandise something, they will.

What exactly are you trying to prove? That Super isn't as popular/profitable as a 30 years old series that an entire generation grew up with? No one denied this, relax.

But "Super" as a brand is most certainly not dead. You people have been saying it's been "dead" since 2018 and yet we got a new Super-branded movie and there's no sign that the Manga is ending any time soon. Long hiatus should be encouraged in this industry, not seen as a doomsday sign.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

Toriyama didn't even create Krilin, the most important side character in the entire franchise, because he was created by the editor, and his style was completely different from what we've seen in DBZ (read Dr. Slump if you want to see the real Toriyama) but people are telling X and Y are not canon because there is not the Toriyama name on the cover. Are you F serious? Be real.

Both GT and Super are canon, and both series have almost nothing to do with the real Toriyama

What's your point here? Toriyama is the one who wrote and drew Krillin across the 42 manga volumes, doesn't matter that his editor came up with concept of the character first, it was Toriyama who did the execution.

[super michael]

DBS Goku is nothing like Toriyama DB Manga Goku at all.
DBS Goku is nothing like Toei DB/DBZ Anime Goku at all.

DBS Boo is nothing like Toriyama DB Manga Boo at all.
DBS Boo is nothing like Toei DBZ anime Boo at all.

DBS Chi Chi dropped 100% of Chi Chi development from DB, written by Toriyama.

[lancerman]

DBS Goku is nothing like Toriyama DB Manga Goku at all.
DBS Goku is nothing like Toei DB/DBZ Anime Goku at all.

DBS Boo is nothing like Toriyama DB Manga Boo at all.
DBS Boo is nothing like Toei DBZ anime Boo at all.

DBS Chi Chi dropped 100% of Chi Chi development from DB, written by Toriyama.

A lot of that has to do with Toriyama being almost 20 years removed and older with different creative priorities when he was overseeing Super.

Goku in the Cell and Boo arc was nothing like the Goku from the start of the story to the 23rd tournament. He was a more serious actiony hero kinda guy without the charm and naivety. I could argue Super Goku is an overcorrection, but it's far closer to the original Goku than later manga/Z.

[SupremeKai25]

DBS Goku is nothing like Toriyama DB Manga Goku at all.
DBS Goku is nothing like Toei DB/DBZ Anime Goku at all.

DBS Boo is nothing like Toriyama DB Manga Boo at all.
DBS Boo is nothing like Toei DBZ anime Boo at all.

DBS Chi Chi dropped 100% of Chi Chi development from DB, written by Toriyama.

A lot of that has to do with Toriyama being almost 20 years removed and older with different creative priorities when he was overseeing Super.

Goku in the Cell and Boo arc was nothing like the Goku from the start of the story to the 23rd tournament. He was a more serious actiony hero kinda guy without the charm and naivety. I could argue Super Goku is an overcorrection, but it's far closer to the original Goku than later manga/Z.

Agreed. The original Goku would never choose death out of some sanctimonious and preachy sense of "duty" to the Earth.

That is why I genuinely think the Buu saga feels more like "Dragon Ball" than the Frieza and Cell saga. What's funny is that this take would have been so controversial back in the 2000s, but since Super is a thing, people have just moved on to hate on Super and the Buu saga gets the benefit of the 1990s nostalgia.

[tonysoprano300]

The Buu arc is certainly far too messy and incoherent…but when its good its REALLY good.

Majin Buu himself is a fantastic villain(particularly the fat Buu and Super Buu variants) that is perfectly inline with classic DB sensibilities, he just exists in an arc that’s seemingly all over the place. He might be my second favourite villain in the series after saiyan saga Vegeta.

I think it just falls flat in comparison to previous works because its written worse as an overarching story, Toriyama was always making things up as he went along but in the Buu arc you really felt it more so than previous sagas.

I think the difference between Goku at the end vs Goku in the beginning was somewhat intentional, This is a goku who has gained an immeasurable amount of wisdom and experience over the years and thus has matured a lot more compared to his kid counterpart. Admittedly Its horribly inconsistent.

[Gapudo]

Super is most certainly closer to Toriyama's original vision than that edgy/emo Cell saga.

Both are very far from the real Toriyama's style you can see in Dr Slump and first chapters of Dragon Ball, or even Cowa

You see the HUGE difference between Cowa and DBS. Hell, even SandLand is very different

[super michael]

DBS Goku is nothing like Toriyama DB Manga Goku at all.
DBS Goku is nothing like Toei DB/DBZ Anime Goku at all.

DBS Boo is nothing like Toriyama DB Manga Boo at all.
DBS Boo is nothing like Toei DBZ anime Boo at all.

DBS Chi Chi dropped 100% of Chi Chi development from DB, written by Toriyama.

A lot of that has to do with Toriyama being almost 20 years removed and older with different creative priorities when he was overseeing Super.

Goku in the Cell and Boo arc was nothing like the Goku from the start of the story to the 23rd tournament. He was a more serious actiony hero kinda guy without the charm and naivety. I could argue Super Goku is an overcorrection, but it's far closer to the original Goku than later manga/Z.

Agreed. The original Goku would never choose death out of some sanctimonious and preachy sense of "duty" to the Earth.

That is why I genuinely think the Buu saga feels more like "Dragon Ball" than the Frieza and Cell saga. What's funny is that this take would have been so controversial back in the 2000s, but since Super is a thing, people have just moved on to hate on Super and the Buu saga gets the benefit of the 1990s nostalgia.

Goku chose to sacrifice his life against Raditz, so Goku doing it again against Cell isn't out of character.
I can't remember when Bulma told Goku that trouble follows him.

Goku does care about the earth, he went out of his way to get and even reactivate the Dragon Balls, so those that died by villains can be brought back to life.

I never saw anything wrong with Cell Games Goku at all, maybe his plan might have been flawed but dumb he wasn't.



However in DBS Goku is very out of character. He doesn't know anything about meditation and using his powers effectively, even though he did it in DB written by Toriyama.
Goku in the episode of Beerus in the costume was really bad, made Goku look bad all the time.

Goku in Goku Black Saga didn't stop forgetting things and saying stupid things. He didn't stop forcing others to fight him.

[AliTheZombie13]

I can't remember when Bulma told Goku that trouble follows him.

I'm not sure whether she was referring to the Red Ribbon Army arc, where she did say she was getting tired of following Goku around since there was always danger following him after escaping from the pirate's cave.

Or if that was Toriyama forgetting that Bulma didn't exactly complain that trouble always followed Goku, but rather, that he was an irresponsible battle-crazed Saiyan who chose to stake the fate of the world over his desire to fight the Cyborgs at the beginning of the Cell Saga.

[Cipher]

People can hem and haw and get hung up over "canon," as verbiage, but the thrust of the thread is accurate.

Toriyama's Dragon Ball, which I think is what most people would consider the core series, despite its many branches of adaptations and spin-offs, ended with Super Chapter 103. Everything to come out afterward will be either written without his involvement at all, or without his supervision. Unless it comes out that Daima was entirely scripted prior to his passing, it'll include the bulk of that beyond a conceptual level as well.

Whatever comes out afterward is going to be a fundamentally different beast.

People get weird about trying to diminish Toriyama's presence in or importance to the series in threads like this sometimes, but the fact is that for the first four decades of the series' life, with noted exceptions among adaptations, and regardless of whatever collaborators and suggestions he had, the series was filtered through the voice of one man.

No doubt it's possible to have fun with non-Toriyama Dragon Ball; I have. But I wouldn't blame anyone who doesn't welcome the idea of engaging with it in perpetuity.

[MasenkoHA]

, but rather, that he was an irresponsible battle-crazed Saiyan who chose to stake the fate of the world over his desire to fight the Cyborgs at the beginning of the Cell Saga.

His argument to Bulma was also "He [Gero] hasn't done anything wrong yet"

We could point out that by being a scientist for the Red Ribbon Army he has indeed done wrong and is complicit in the murder of who knows how many people but that becomes a question of ethics I suppose.

At the end of the day "We should stop Gero from even creating the Artificial Humans." "Nah let it play out" is Toriyama just realizing the obvious solution to the conflict he introduced (they have a magic wish granting dragon that could prevent this future from even happening) and giving a handwave so the story could actually happen. So I don't see a point in getting too bothered by Goku and the other characters actions. It's not like Bulma couldn't have gone rogue and found the dragon balls herself and made the wish to drop Gero in a lava pit or something. So she either ultimately agreed with Goku's argument or respected his real wishes as a martial artist.

[AliTheZombie13]

, but rather, that he was an irresponsible battle-crazed Saiyan who chose to stake the fate of the world over his desire to fight the Cyborgs at the beginning of the Cell Saga.

His argument to Bulma was also "He [Gero] hasn't done anything wrong yet"

We could point out that by being a scientist for the Red Ribbon Army he has indeed done wrong and is complicit in the murder of who knows how many people but that becomes a question of ethics I suppose.

At the end of the day "We should stop Gero from even creating the Artificial Humans." "Nah let it play out" is Toriyama just realizing the obvious solution to the conflict he introduced (they have a magic wish granting dragon that could prevent this future from even happening) and giving a handwave so the story could actually happen. So I don't see a point in getting too bothered by Goku and the other characters actions. It's not like Bulma couldn't have gone rogue and found the dragon balls herself and made the wish to drop Gero in a lava pit or something. So she either ultimately agreed with Goku's argument or respected his real wishes as a martial artist.

Mind you, this was after Vegeta threatened to kill her, she asked Goku for help, and Goku refused. After Goku refused, she asked for help from everyone else, and everyone else also decided "Nah, let it play out." And then, she decided she had no option but to follow them, since... You know... She was under a death threat.

And yes, I know the real-life reason why it played out like that is because Toriyama wrote himself into a wall. If it were me, I'd just have the characters try to search for Gero, then realize Gero had already fleed since he was spying on them using micro-robots, and then have them reluctantly decide to prepare themselves instead. Either way, that scene made every single character unsympathetic as fuck in my book, and I found myself not caring about them or the story afterwards.

If you present to me a story that's basically, "We must get out of jail, how do we do that?" And the story repeatedly hands the heroes free-get-out-of-jail cards, and the heroes proceed to destroy each one of them with their bare hands because "Nah, that's not fair." Only for them to go back into wondering "How do we get out?" 3 seconds later, you can find that story either funny or frustrating. In my case, I found it extremely, beyond-help frustrating, but that's just me.

[Cure Dragon 255]

, but rather, that he was an irresponsible battle-crazed Saiyan who chose to stake the fate of the world over his desire to fight the Cyborgs at the beginning of the Cell Saga.

His argument to Bulma was also "He [Gero] hasn't done anything wrong yet"

We could point out that by being a scientist for the Red Ribbon Army he has indeed done wrong and is complicit in the murder of who knows how many people but that becomes a question of ethics I suppose.

At the end of the day "We should stop Gero from even creating the Artificial Humans." "Nah let it play out" is Toriyama just realizing the obvious solution to the conflict he introduced (they have a magic wish granting dragon that could prevent this future from even happening) and giving a handwave so the story could actually happen. So I don't see a point in getting too bothered by Goku and the other characters actions. It's not like Bulma couldn't have gone rogue and found the dragon balls herself and made the wish to drop Gero in a lava pit or something. So she either ultimately agreed with Goku's argument or respected his real wishes as a martial artist.

Mind you, this was after Vegeta threatened to kill her, she asked Goku for help, and Goku refused. After Goku refused, she asked for help from everyone else, and everyone else also decided "Nah, let it play out." And then, she decided she had no option but to follow them, since... You know... She was under a death threat.

And yes, I know the real-life reason why it played out like that is because Toriyama wrote himself into a wall. If it were me, I'd just have the characters try to search for Gero, then realize Gero had already fleed since he was spying on them using micro-robots, and then have them reluctantly decide to prepare themselves instead. Either way, that scene made every single character unsympathetic as fuck in my book, and I found myself not caring about them or the story afterwards.

If you present to me a story that's basically, "We must get out of jail, how do we do that?" And the story repeatedly hands the heroes free-get-out-of-jail cards, and the heroes proceed to destroy each one of them with their bare hands because "Nah, that's not fair." Only for them to go back into wondering "How do we get out?" 3 seconds later, you can find that story either funny or frustrating. In my case, I found it extremely, beyond-help frustrating, but that's just me.

I swear I am saying this to be mean, gatekeep or that you are incorrect in any way but what exactly do you like about Dragon Ball? You dont like GT, and I think you are not liking the android saga? I know the easy answer would be "The Saiyan/Buu Saga" but I just have to know. I dont even include Super because that kicks the issues you have with DB, Goku and Toriyama to an INSANE overdrive.

[tonysoprano300]

I also don’t believe that Tien, Gohan, Krillin, Yamcha or even Piccolo would go along with this.

Obviously Toriyama still needs the story to happen, I think he could have just written it in a way where they do go after Gero and then something happens to fuck things up which ultimately leads to his escape and the androids getting more powerful because Gero knows about SSJ now and can implement that data point.

Keep in mind, this is almost exactly what happens in the Buu saga when they reach Babidi’s ship. And it led to a much more compelling opening

[MasenkoHA]

.

And yes, I know the real-life reason why it played out like that is because Toriyama wrote himself into a wall. If it were me, I'd just have the characters try to search for Gero, then realize Gero had already fleed since he was spying on them using micro-robots, and then have them reluctantly decide to prepare themselves instead. Either way, that scene made every single character unsympathetic as fuck in my book, and I found myself not caring about them or the story afterwards.

But that in no way negates the "But they have access to a magical dragon who could, in theory, just find the dude for them". They don't have to try to find him if they were inclined.
Where the hell is he supposed to flee to?

You pretty much have to either A. Bring up the potential to have Shen Long put the kibosh on this future conflict and handwave why they don't go through with that or B. Don't even bring it up and the hope nobody in the audience goes "But why don't they..." Toriyama went with the former.

I also don’t believe that Tien, Gohan, Krillin, Yamcha or even Piccolo would go along with this.

Tenshinhan and Piccolo absolutely would go along with it. Gohan was like 7 and would do whatever dad and Uncle Piccolo wanted. Yamucha lacks the spine to go against the popular consensus. Krillin has already shown he has enough respect for Goku to go with his wishes regardless of his own trepidations.

Obviously Toriyama still needs the story to happen, I think he could have just written it in a way where they do go after Gero and then something happens to fuck things up which ultimately leads to his escape and the androids getting more powerful because Gero knows about SSJ now and can implement that data point.

Keep in mind, this is almost exactly what happens in the Buu saga when they reach Babidi’s ship. And it led to a much more compelling opening

Keep in mind Bobbodi had minions to fight on his behalf and the plot was dependent on the characters fighting to feed energy to awaken Boo.

Gero is just a normal mad scientist. The hell is he gonna do when literally any of the martial artist who could break him in two come to his door?

[AliTheZombie13]

I swear I am saying this to be mean, gatekeep or that you are incorrect in any way but what exactly do you like about Dragon Ball? You dont like GT, and I think you are not liking the android saga? I know the easy answer would be "The Saiyan/Buu Saga" but I just have to know. I dont even include Super because that kicks the issues you have with DB, Goku and Toriyama to an INSANE overdrive.

...I have freakin' Pan as my avatar, what gave you the impression I don't like GT?
I'll die on the hill that the Black Star Saga was good and Pan & Giru are likable characters, even if the whole world is against me.
That being said, I like most of Classic DB, including GT, the parts that I don't like are the second half of Namek, Cell, Boo and Super 17.
Other than the story, I do like most of the music and the art.

Super is a whole 'nother monster. The movies ('sans RoF) are good, the anime is a complete mess and the manga is kind of in-between.
There, hope that answers it.

[tonysoprano300]

Tien? No way. He literally just came back to life after dying a gruesome death to the Saiyans, he behaved in a far more proactive fashion when he faced King Piccolo. Tien(After the 22nd world tournament) has never been characterized as someone who would intentionally jeopardize others for his own personal amusement.

Piccolo is a little more debatable I guess…its hard to know how much Nail is influencing him at this juncture.

Gohan at this point was arguably the most morally upstanding character on the Dragon Team, he was devastated by the destruction laid out in the saiyan saga and was adamant about going to Namek to undo it. The idea that he wouldn’t even make a single peep when faced with the prospect of total annihilation of everyone he knows and loves is hard to believe.

People need to put some respect on Yamchas name lol, he’s not a wimp. He also just came back from dying a gruesome death.

Again…Krillin just came back from dying a gruesome death, and now you’re telling him that two androids are coming and they are much more powerful than Freeza. At the very least he would be pleading and begging Goku to not take such a risk. No way he’s just happy to go along with no pushback whatsoever.


Toriyama could write it so that he has some fairly outdated androids to dispatch against them as a distraction while he attempts to make an escape, maybe someone attempts to try and reach Gero before he gets away but is interrupted at the last second by Vegeta who selfishly wants Gero to escape and make more powerful androids.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I swear I am saying this to be mean, gatekeep or that you are incorrect in any way but what exactly do you like about Dragon Ball? You dont like GT, and I think you are not liking the android saga? I know the easy answer would be "The Saiyan/Buu Saga" but I just have to know. I dont even include Super because that kicks the issues you have with DB, Goku and Toriyama to an INSANE overdrive.

...I have freakin' Pan as my avatar, what gave you the impression I don't like GT?
I'll die on the hill that the Black Star Saga was good and Pan & Giru are likable characters, even if the whole world is against me.
That being said, I like most of Classic DB, including GT, the parts that I don't like are the second half of Namek, Cell, Boo and Super 17.
Other than the story, I do like most of the music and the art.

Super is a whole 'nother monster. The movies ('sans RoF) are good, the anime is a complete mess and the manga is kind of in-between.
There, hope that answers it.

Sorry I had a brainfart and thought that you said "GT didnt do Pan Justice, Team Four Star Mentioned how in a worthile show Pan would show WHY she was taken along but on GT she just constantly gets in trouble instead-"

I really must have confused you for someone else.