Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Well it wouldn't really make any sense why SSJ3 Goku couldnt land a hit on Beerus and was knocked across the planet just by being flicked in the head by a Beerus that was taking the fight lightly but then could keep up with, could hurt slightly and could withstand the punches and kicks of a Beerus that was taking the fight much more seriously.

[ZombieVito]

You know this base with/without god essence is starting to make sense. That's one way to explain how Oob was able to keep up with base Goku without bloating him up to hell.

That wouldn't really make any sense. That'd have to be Goku's base with God ki, or else Goku got like 400 times stronger in base (discounting God ki) between Buu and Uub. I again think that base Goku is just not all that strong. Base Godku being SS3-tier wouldn't really contradict anything, would it?

Or Oob didn't have all of Pure Boo's power.

Edit: In order to make base Godku be on par with Oob at full power in EoZ you will have to make final form Freeza weaker than Pure Boo. I just can't see that being accurate.

[RandomGuy96]

You know this base with/without god essence is starting to make sense. That's one way to explain how Oob was able to keep up with base Goku without bloating him up to hell.

That wouldn't really make any sense. That'd have to be Goku's base with God ki, or else Goku got like 400 times stronger in base (discounting God ki) between Buu and Uub. I again think that base Goku is just not all that strong. Base Godku being SS3-tier wouldn't really contradict anything, would it?

Or Oob didn't have all of Pure Boo's power.

Edit: In order to make base Godku be on par with Oob at full power in EoZ you will have to make final form Freeza weaker than Pure Boo. I just can't see that being accurate.

Can't be. Goku said that Uub was as powerful as Goku expected him to be.

Why can't that be accurate? Did non-Golden Freeza even do anything besides beat up SS Gohan and Piccolo?

Well it wouldn't really make any sense why SSJ3 Goku couldnt land a hit on Beerus and was knocked across the planet just by being flicked in the head by a Beerus that was taking the fight lightly but then could keep up with, could hurt slightly and could withstand the punches and kicks of a Beerus that was taking the fight much more seriously.

His base while fighting Beerus is clearly not as strong as his base everywhere else (or Beerus was screwing around). That would imply his base was nearly identical in strength to his SSG, which is shown to be untrue many times later...

[namekiansaiyan]

Why is everyone assuming that the difference between forms is really big the way some of you are saying youur arguments its as you believe that Goku is stronger than Beerus at max.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Freeza was on-par with SBG Goku, who would beat the utter shit outta Kid Boo. Having him at Super Saiyan 3 is a pointless lowball.

[Khin]

So, assuming that SSG power can't be turned on/off (since it's an unconfirmed theory so far), I go by this:

Vados - Whis - 15
Beerus - Champa - 10
Monaka
Golden Freeza
SSB Goku - Vegeta [Champa arc]
SSB Goku - Vegeta [FnF]
SS Goku - Vegeta [Champa arc]
Final Form Frost
Piccolo - Base Gohan [Champa arc]
Assault Form Frost
Base Goku - Vegeta [Champa arc]
Base Goku - Vegeta [FnF]
SSG - SS - Base Goku [BoG] - 6
Final Form Freeza
First Form Frost
Botamo
Enraged SS2 Vegeta [BoG]
First Form Freeza
Ultimate - SS Gohan [BoG]
Majin Boo
SS Gohan [FnF]
Ginyu
Base Gohan [FnF] - Tagoma
Shisami
Piccolo [BoG/FnF]

Question : Why do you have BOG Base Goku as strong as his SSj/God self ? This line contradicts it.

Minute: 17
Context: Whis provides highly detailed expository dialogue.
Oracle Fish: "Maybe your training is a bit too tough? At this rate, those two are going to die. You could at least have them become those "Super Saiyan" things."
Whis: "That wouldn't do, at all."
Oracle Fish: "It wouldn't?"
Whis: "Those two have just barely reached the level where they can sense the ki of a god. If that castle up there were the level of the gods, then their power is only about this high. They need to raise the level of their ki without becoming Super Saiyan. Otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger, since they won't be able to see the realm which lies ahead. Most likely, those two realize this themselves. After all, I never once told them not to become Super Saiyans."
Oracle Fish: "Well, whatever. Just don't kill them."

[namekiansaiyan]

Freeza was on-par with SBG Goku, who would beat the utter shit outta Kid Boo. Having him at Super Saiyan 3 is a pointless lowball.

That is why Frost and Piccolo are really strong as well

[namekiansaiyan]

So, assuming that SSG power can't be turned on/off (since it's an unconfirmed theory so far), I go by this:

Vados - Whis - 15
Beerus - Champa - 10
Monaka
Golden Freeza
SSB Goku - Vegeta [Champa arc]
SSB Goku - Vegeta [FnF]
SS Goku - Vegeta [Champa arc]
Final Form Frost
Piccolo - Base Gohan [Champa arc]
Assault Form Frost
Base Goku - Vegeta [Champa arc]
Base Goku - Vegeta [FnF]
SSG - SS - Base Goku [BoG] - 6
Final Form Freeza
First Form Frost
Botamo
Enraged SS2 Vegeta [BoG]
First Form Freeza
Ultimate - SS Gohan [BoG]
Majin Boo
SS Gohan [FnF]
Ginyu
Base Gohan [FnF] - Tagoma
Shisami
Piccolo [BoG/FnF]

Question : Why do you have BOG Base Goku as strong as his SSj/God self ? This line contradicts it.

Minute: 17
Context: Whis provides highly detailed expository dialogue.
Oracle Fish: "Maybe your training is a bit too tough? At this rate, those two are going to die. You could at least have them become those "Super Saiyan" things."
Whis: "That wouldn't do, at all."
Oracle Fish: "It wouldn't?"
Whis: "Those two have just barely reached the level where they can sense the ki of a god. If that castle up there were the level of the gods, then their power is only about this high. They need to raise the level of their ki without becoming Super Saiyan. Otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger, since they won't be able to see the realm which lies ahead. Most likely, those two realize this themselves. After all, I never once told them not to become Super Saiyans."
Oracle Fish: "Well, whatever. Just don't kill them."

He is saying that super saiyan Goku is weaker than his base after training for 3 years in the chamber.

[Khin]

What ? I can't read what your trying to say

[apex_pretador]

On base goku debate: (Only DB super)

1. Base vegeta was said to be stronger than base goku at beerus planet.

2. Then whis said they need to power-up without turning super saiyan

3. Whis then said that they are growing at MUCH faster rate by sparring with each other.

4. At the Freeza fight , base goku & vegeta were sensed by everyone.

5. Goku said a generic "You've powered up a lot" before freeza powered-up to golden form, but after seeing golden freeza, he was like "Incredible, Unbelievable , astonishing"

6. Base goku has done nothing to put him 10 x buuhan, let alone 10x vegetto. The best he has done is to punch beerus' ball of power, which can be attributed to a spike in his power due to SSG powers in him.

7. Neither goku not vegeta have "godly ki" in any form except SSB. Goku absorbed "POWER OF SSG" , not god ki.

[namekiansaiyan]

On base goku debate: (Only DB super)

1. Base vegeta was said to be stronger than base goku at beerus planet.

2. Then whis said they need to power-up without turning super saiyan

3. Whis then said that they are growing at MUCH faster rate by sparring with each other.

4. At the Freeza fight , base goku & vegeta were sensed by everyone.

5. Goku said a generic "You've powered up a lot" before freeza powered-up to golden form, but after seeing golden freeza, he was like "Incredible, Unbelievable , astonishing"

6. Base goku has done nothing to put him 10 x buuhan, let alone 10x vegetto. The best he has done is to punch beerus' ball of power, which can be attributed to a spike in his power due to SSG powers in him.

7. Neither goku not vegeta have "godly ki" in any form except SSB. Goku absorbed "POWER OF SSG" , not god ki.

Even if your theory is true base Goku and Vegeta are still really strong and way stronger than buuhan and Vegito because they still have the power of a Super Saiyan God even without God ki which will still mean Frost and Piccolo are stronger than Final Form Frieza in Resurrection of F as well base Goku and Vegeta.

[Khin]

As i said in the other thread.1st Form Freeza was above SSj Gohan who is the same league as his Ultimate self.And the same Freeza need his Final Form to be equal to base Goku.So unless you think Freeza got only like 1.5x stronger than his 1st Form Form.Base Goku/Vegeta is leagues above Gohan-Boo.

[apex_pretador]

As i said in the other thread.1st Form Freeza was above SSj Gohan who is the same league as his Ultimate self.And the same Freeza need his Final Form to be equal to base Goku.So unless you think Freeza got only like 1.5x stronger than his 1st Form Form.Base Goku/Vegeta is leagues above Gohan-Boo.

But nothing to indicate they are above SS vegetto

Also, nothing to indicate gohan SS was even in the same league as buu arc gohan, but even then, freeza final form can still be around super vegetto level.

Given how his golden form boost is implied to be FAR more incredible than his first to final form boost, I'm inclined to believe that base goku/vegeta are nowhere near SSG.

[Khin]

But nothing to indicate they are above SS vegetto

Also, nothing to indicate gohan SS was even in the same league as buu arc gohan, but even then, freeza final form can still be around super vegetto level.

Given how his golden form boost is implied to be FAR more incredible than his first to final form boost, I'm inclined to believe that base goku/vegeta are nowhere near SSG.

Freeza on Namek went from 530,000 to 120,000,000.Unless you think SSj Vegetto is around 200x stronger than Ultimate Gohan/Gohan-Boo.Base Vegeta and Goku are also above Vegetto.

[apex_pretador]

But nothing to indicate they are above SS vegetto

Also, nothing to indicate gohan SS was even in the same league as buu arc gohan, but even then, freeza final form can still be around super vegetto level.

Given how his golden form boost is implied to be FAR more incredible than his first to final form boost, I'm inclined to believe that base goku/vegeta are nowhere near SSG.

Freeza on Namek went from 530,000 to 120,000,000.Unless you think SSj Vegetto is around 200x stronger than Ultimate Gohan/Gohan-Boo.Base Vegeta and Goku are also above Vegetto.

Freeza went from 530,000 to 3,000,000 on namek. Then he powered-up twice, then he powered up to 50%, then 70% then buff form
Also, nothing to indicate that freeza's forms are "MULTIPLIERS" or freeza is still suppressing himself to 0.5% in RoF after he has trained for more power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It is pretty obvious these statements about Goku's base being as strong as SSG were based on the events of the movie version of BoGs and Toriyama BoG's movie interview in 2013. But these were changed both in FnF movie and Super.

How were they changed in the FnF movie?

That is incorrect. I suggest you re-watching the episodes with better subs. Never once was SSGSS referred to as "a form beyond SSG". The only time SSGSS was said to be beyond another form was about the legendary Super Saiyan form.

Watch what the Narrator says in the beginning of episode 25. He says that Goku mutated into a form that exceeded even Super Saiyan God. The same was said in the Super manga.

Kaio surprisedly remarked that Goku reached God tier on his own only after Goku turned SSGSS.

No, he never said he was surprised because Goku reached God tier on his own, he was surprised that Goku became a god on his own.

Except that in both the movie and the anime they were stated that they have NOW reached the level of rivalling Zarbon and Dodoria.

Show me the line that says that NOW they reached that level.

Question : Why do you have BOG Base Goku as strong as his SSj/God self ? This line contradicts it.

Toriyama's movie is above Toei's anime IMO. In BoG, it was stated that after Goku returned back to normal after the time of SSG ended, his power didn't decrease much. This was also shown in his fight with Beerus, since Goku didn't notice any huge power decrease in his base, and he fought slightly better in his base form than he did in his SSG form.

Even in Super, base Goku could destroy the huge ki ball that as a Super Saiyan couldn't even push back, and he could survive hits from Beerus at full power without breaking any bones.

[Speedster]

Why do you have BOG Base Goku as strong as his SSj/God self ?

Toriyama's movie is above Toei's anime IMO. In BoG, it was stated that after Goku returned back to normal after the time of SSG ended, his power didn't decrease much.

Then, you are in the wrong thread, as here we are discussing about Toei’s Dragonball Super anime. If you want to adhere to the movie version then the following thread is more suitable for you: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =6&t=14197

Even in Super, base Goku could destroy the huge ki ball that as a Super Saiyan couldn't even push back, and he could survive hits from Beerus at full power without breaking any bones.

Base Goku in Super only punched that ball. He did nothing else. In your movie which you are so fond of, this was the equivalent moment of when Goku momentarily turned back into red-haired SSG and absorbed the ball. In Super we can perfectly assume that the feat was due to a momentary huge boost in his base.

It is pretty obvious these statements about Goku's base being as strong as SSG were based on the events of the movie version of BoGs and Toriyama BoG's movie interview in 2013. But these were changed both in FnF movie and Super.

How were they changed in the FnF movie?

1. When both Goku and Freeza went from their base forms to their transformed states it was considered as a major power-up, far greater than when they powered up their bases.
2. Goku after transforming in SSGSS says this is a “Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God”
3. We know that SSGSS can't be a major increase from the SSG tie. If it were then Goku would be beating Beerus by now.

Kaio surprisedly remarked that Goku reached God tier on his own only after Goku turned SSGSS.

No, he never said he was surprised because Goku reached God tier on his own, he was surprised that Goku became a god on his own.

If Goku was already higher than or on par with SSG in his base as you suggest then you have to wonder what was the reason Kaio made that remark when he saw him turning God. What was so surprising about this then, if it wasn't for the power? The blue hair? You say that Kaio wouldn’t be surprised that Goku had reached SSG tier power in base but he would be surprised that Goku went a bit beyond SSG? What is more impressive to you? Going from 1 to 1000 or 1000 to 1200?

Watch what the Narrator says in the beginning of episode 25. He says that Goku mutated into a form that exceeded even Super Saiyan God. The same was said in the Super manga.

Same was said about the yellow SSJ in BoGs in title episode 13 title. So what? Notice that in episode 25 the narrator uses the keyword even. He said he surpassed even SSG. That implies that it was something impressive to get to SSG level let alone slightly surpass it. He didn't say “greatly surpassed” or anything equivalent.

It is like asking how many goals did player X score this season so far? And your answer is “He scored 38, even more than Y’s (35 goals)! Had player X scored 67 goals then the comparison would have been different. You would say: “He scored 67 goals, far surpassing Y’s!

Additionally the narrator’s comment should also prove to you that the base is nowhere near the god tier. The narrator says that Goku had even surpassed SSG only when Goku turned blue Super Saiyan. Which means that before turning Super Saiyan he hadn’t surpassed SSG i.e. in his base he is below SSG.

Going back to our goal scoring analogy, if a player X had scored 36 goals the previous season then why would I still compare X’s this season's 38 goal performance to Y’s 35 goals? Shouldn’t I compare X to his previous season’s stats (36)? The very fact that I compare player’s X current season stats to Y’s it means that X’s previous season’s stats were nowhere near Y’s and that Y’s were indeed the more impressive stats. Probably X in the previous season scored only 11 goals or so. But this season he turned SSJ and he even surpassed Y’s 35 goals…but not by a large margin (he scored 38).

Show me the line that says that NOW they reached that level.

DBS Episode 20, min 4-5; FnF Movie, min 13-14. Besides Tagoma couldn’t be Dodoria’s level 14 (or so) years earlier as shown by his flashback being a lower ranked soldier. So he was below Dodoria and now after 14 so years he only managed to reach that level. We are talking about an army obsessed with strength by the way. We know for a fact that the Ginyu force who were the elite force at the time were training. Why the mooks who take orders wouldn’t? It is not as if Tagoma is a newly hired prodigy soldier or a soldier hired after the defeat of Freeza. He was member even back then. Same can be said about Shisami who was very fond of Freeza. Why did he like him so much if he had never served under his command?

[LowRyder2005]

You know this base with/without god essence is starting to make sense. That's one way to explain how Oob was able to keep up with base Goku without bloating him up to hell.

That wouldn't really make any sense. That'd have to be Goku's base with God ki, or else Goku got like 400 times stronger in base (discounting God ki) between Buu and Uub. I again think that base Goku is just not all that strong. Base Godku being SS3-tier wouldn't really contradict anything, would it?

Or Oob didn't have all of Pure Boo's power.

Edit: In order to make base Godku be on par with Oob at full power in EoZ you will have to make final form Freeza weaker than Pure Boo. I just can't see that being accurate.

Agreed with this, this time. Goku saying Uub is as strong as he expected him to be could simply mean he expected him to be "really strong" (because he was Pure Buu's reincarnation) and that's it.
Uub, after all, isn't exactly intended to be a carbon copy of Majin Buu: just someone who carries his purified soul (and I don't think anyone compares his power to Kid Buu when he gets angry, as in "OMG, he is as strong as Kid Buu").

In some way, you could say that it's something like Piccolo and Piccolo Daimao: when Piccolo is born, we are given the impression he is arguably strong but not as strong as Piccolo Daimao was, and that he surpasses his father only by training. I think Uub may be a similar case.

[Bullza]

His base while fighting Beerus is clearly not as strong as his base everywhere else (or Beerus was screwing around). That would imply his base was nearly identical in strength to his SSG, which is shown to be untrue many times later..

Well I dunno because he clearly powered up when he went Super Saiyan because the cave was collapsing is on him before he transformed and tunneled his way out.

Someone here once mentioned that Goku didn't realise he'd fallen out of SSJG form or powered down even while he was base form.

Well Goku said to Beerus he was fighting at 80% and then shortly after he goes back to base form and then he gets angry and powers up to SSJ.

So I'm wondering if perhaps

Base = 80% of SSJG
SSJ = 100% of SSJG

And as someone just mentioned above, First Form Frieza was stronger than SSJ Gohan and the 5 Z Fighters together. In the series the difference between Frieza's first and final forms was a 226x difference.

Does that possibly make base Gohan like 300x more powerful than SSJ Gohan perhaps?

[LowRyder2005]

I think that regarding the "BOG Post-God Base/Super Saiyan" (gee, what a mouthful) there is still something that has been brought up a couple of pages ago that should be of interest: what if, like it has been said, that power-up was only temporary and dispersed over time (let's say a few hours or days) just like the fiery aura?

I mean, the red form was supposed to disappear anyway, leaving the old Super Saiyan God weak enough for other evil Saiyans to kill him, right?
Then you'd have Base Goku and Base Vegeta around the same power, again, who could spar with each other and improve themselves through Whis' training at the same rate or so.