Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

The movie made very clear that Gogeta and Broly had equal strength. The thing that made the difference in the end was the mastery of Gogeta. Broly was just a behemoth.

[dragon boss z]

Exactly. Some people have claimed the anime didn’t got right the boost of a fusion, since SSG was supposed to be a realm beyond that. Turned out it was the opposite.

But you said the anime was more accurate, so I asked why. Saying all of them are accurate, or one is more accurate than the other, are two different things.

I never said that.

PerhapsTheOtherOne said it, but when I asked how it was more accurate, you were the one who tried to answer in his place.

We have the manga where base Vegito is able to blow off Merged Zamasu's upper body, even if it was a surprise attack. As well, Caulifla and Kale produced Kefla in the anime who was as strong as SSG Goku. Who would've thought that the anime had the more accurate interpretation of Fusion strength?

How was the anime interpretation of fusion strength more accurate?

Because Toyotaro’s manga and DBS movie replicated the feature in which Fusion gives a boost that rivals or surpasses the god forms. Kefla actually was dominating SSG Goku.

The movie made very clear that Gogeta and Broly had equal strength. The thing that made the difference in the end was the mastery of Gogeta. Broly was just a behemoth.

In ssj yes, but SSB Goku seemed to be outright stronger than even full power ssj Broly.

[ZombieVito]

You know, with the fan theory that the base of a Fusion ends up as strong as the strongest form both fusees can attain, assuming they're both Saiyans, it'd also explain why Gotenks isn't so vastly powerful compared to Gogeta and Vegito.

Goten and Trunks, together, can only attain Super Saiyan, so maybe Gotenks in base form is equal to that. Meanwhile, back when Vegito showed up, he must've been AT LEAST as strong as SS2 Goku and Vegeta, maybe even SS3 if it's possible that Vegeta had the potential for that form as well.

Now, SSB is the highest level that Goku and Vegeta both can attain without additional power-ups that are exclusive to each other, so base Gogeta/Vegito ends up as strong as that.

Of course, this is all assuming that the fan theory holds up.

I don't think base Gotenks is that strong. There's many things that points that his base and Super Saiyan are really weak.

[cantwaitanymore]

You know, with the fan theory that the base of a Fusion ends up as strong as the strongest form both fusees can attain, assuming they're both Saiyans, it'd also explain why Gotenks isn't so vastly powerful compared to Gogeta and Vegito.

Goten and Trunks, together, can only attain Super Saiyan, so maybe Gotenks in base form is equal to that. Meanwhile, back when Vegito showed up, he must've been AT LEAST as strong as SS2 Goku and Vegeta, maybe even SS3 if it's possible that Vegeta had the potential for that form as well.

Now, SSB is the highest level that Goku and Vegeta both can attain without additional power-ups that are exclusive to each other, so base Gogeta/Vegito ends up as strong as that.

Of course, this is all assuming that the fan theory holds up.

I don't think base Gotenks is that strong. There's many things that points that his base and Super Saiyan are really weak.

why are we speculating gotenks strenght when we have statements in the manga on his power?
SSJ3 GOKU< SSJ GOTENKS (Pre ROSAT) < Base Gotenks(Post ROSAT)
Base Gotenks got stronger than his previous SSJ in 1h of outside time = 15 days inside. It completely debunks that dumbass theory, and also PSSB Goku=Fused Zamasu completely debunks it
as well as SSJ Kefla = Gohan. Base Vegito was stronger than SS2 Vegita by a mile. Also who said Base Vegito is as strong as SSB? Manga adapted the movie fully and skipped the entire Broly park, and it was drawn that Broly was fighting PSSB Goku and PSSB Vegeta, so we know Base Gogeta > PSSB Goku.

[cantwaitanymore]

to your post obviously

Oh, I couldn't tell your post was all over the place.

Why are we taking anime as canon? Kefla in manga and Kefla in anime astronomically different. Anime is incosistent even to itself, let alone to the manga.

Because it's the official continuation while manga is promotional material.

I mean people hang about the quote from BoG movie, but Goku was reffering to Potara probably as Vegeta doesnt know Fusion (until know). I mean there are a lot of statements from that movie that dont corespond with todays events. They were just getting started and getting the hang of the whole DBS universe, so it was bound to have a lot of mistakes.

Toriyama clarified that Vegito and Gogeta are both equal in strength, so it wouldn't matter which fusion Goku would have chosen. Also, Goku's statement about Potara being no match for Beerus was kept in the anime, unlike the 70% line which was cut out.

Also and most importantly the bullshit headcanon that base fusions are strongest forms x 10 or more is bullshit, proven in the manga by Fused Zamasu = PSSB Goku and SSJ Kefla = Gohan.
Its also proven in the DBZ manga, as Gotenks after 1hour of outside time = 15 days of inside time in RoSat got stronger in his base form than he was previously in his SSJ form. So STOP with that bullshit

Did you read any further down? I'm the one who said fusion was Base •Base, so I agree with you.

Well since you didnt read my post on the previous page about fusion=potara, now i have to copy paste it.


As Ken Xyro stated and confirmed with multiple translators it wasnt reffering to power. Since i dont know if i can link stuff on here, here is the copy pasted part of the quote:
``Again, equally good does NOT mean equal power level.
They're referring to the techniques (Potara and Fusion) being "equally dependable" and the best trump cards.``
and also : ``Think of this sentence as "Fusion is just as dependable as Potara when it comes to being the ultimate trump card".
When they're referring to power they specifically mention power. The word used here simply means dependable / competent / efficient / qualified.``

We have the WSJ stating that Fusion is stronger and Gogeta would win if they fight, while the only way Vegito could win is if Gogeta defused.
In Super we have a quote stating that potara is their parts added together and multiplied by tens of times. We have also seen Fused Zamasu = PSSB Goku (FT arc) and SSJ Kefla = Gohan
We have seen in the movie that Base Gogeta > PSSB Goku (post ToP). So thats pretty conclusive imo.


Also why do you believe anime is canon and manga is not, when we know manga is written by Toriyama and Toyotaro draws it, with Toriyama changing Toyos stuff as he feels?

[cantwaitanymore]

Common sense says that we interpreted the facts differently and thus have no way to actually gauge who's more correct without authoritarian statements from the creators.

And so what? He IS less skilled than Gogeta. He's berserking, he's only equal in strength at most as a Super Saiyan, and Gogeta is the sum of Goku and Vegeta with none of their usual weaknesses. Despite that, Broly is able to take Gogeta's Ki barrage and diffuse it; the same can't be said for when Gogeta Blue did that against Full-Power Broly. As well, Broly's never hurt as badly as a Super Saiyan against SS Gogeta compared to when he went Full-Power and got absolutely STOMPED by Gogeta Blue; he always bounces back from the blows better than later in the fight. Compared to later on, SS Gogeta only gets a few occasional good shots against SS Broly.

SS Gogeta vs SS Broly is basically a repeat of SSB Goku vs Ikari Broly, except in this case Gogeta is an even better fighter than Goku and Broly is even less in control of his mental faculties. The power difference is nonexistent, but it's clear that Broly is the less effective fighter.

Daym bro, keep up the mental gimnastics . Broly was weaker, ``raging and less skilled`` vs Goku, and pummeled Goku a lot. He didnt touch Gogeta. Stop with the reaching. if you want to believe that i have NO PROBLEM with that, but dont be saying that that way they are equal in power just because you believe Broly was the worse fighter, when something else was shown


Also, once and for all. Broly vs Goku - weaker and according to you less skilled and raging, resullt = pummeled Goku a bunch of times
Broly vs Gogeta - according to you - equal, less skilled and raging, result = didnt land a hit


See how stupid it sounds? If they were equal the fight would be like Broly vs Goku except Broly would land even more.

You need to stop with the needless antagonism and insults. If you cannot conduct yourself in a mature and controlled manner, you have no business being on a debate thread, especially when those you are debating are being respectful and not resorting to personal insults or attacks. Stow your condescending demeanor.

Also, Cozy, I'd assume that Vegetto in Base during Buu Saga would be stronger than SS3 Goku and SS2 Vegeta considering the struggles they had against Kid Buu using the form. And Buuhan is stronger than Kid Buu. And Vegetto massacred Buuhan in SS.

I didnt write him any insults... why are u so sensitive

[cantwaitanymore]

The movie made very clear that Gogeta and Broly had equal strength. The thing that made the difference in the end was the mastery of Gogeta. Broly was just a behemoth.

if you believe that then explain to me, how did Broly hit SSB Goku so much when he was weaker? Goku has waaaaaay more mastery than Broly and Broly was also just a behemoth, so how is that possible? You would expect that he would pummel Gogeta when they are ``equal`` and yet he didnt land 1 punch.

[PFM18]

*snip*

Dude, you arent supposed to have double posts let alone quadruple posts. Just edit the first post man.

[saiyanhajime]

I got the impression that SSJ Blue Gogeta was maybe slightly stronger than Gogeta, even in brute strength... But the fusion is about more than their strength alone. A big deal has been made about Goku and Vegeta "working together" for some time now. Broly is brute strength, but Goku and Vegeta have literally decades of experience and Gogeta is them working perfectly in mental sync and their physical magnified. If Broly had even an ounce of that experience, he'd have wiped the floor with Gogeta, no problem.

So "equal" is about right.

[cantwaitanymore]

I got the impression that SSJ Blue Gogeta was maybe slightly stronger than Gogeta, even in brute strength... But the fusion is about more than their strength alone. A big deal has been made about Goku and Vegeta "working together" for some time now. Broly is brute strength, but Goku and Vegeta have literally decades of experience and Gogeta is them working perfectly in mental sync and their physical magnified. If Broly had even an ounce of that experience, he'd have wiped the floor with Gogeta, no problem.

So "equal" is about right.

lmao I'm done

[saiyanhajime]

Oh thank god!

[cantwaitanymore]

Oh thank god!

headcanon

[Sora Saiyan]

to your post obviously

Oh, I couldn't tell your post was all over the place.

Why are we taking anime as canon? Kefla in manga and Kefla in anime astronomically different. Anime is incosistent even to itself, let alone to the manga.

Because it's the official continuation while manga is promotional material.

I mean people hang about the quote from BoG movie, but Goku was reffering to Potara probably as Vegeta doesnt know Fusion (until know). I mean there are a lot of statements from that movie that dont corespond with todays events. They were just getting started and getting the hang of the whole DBS universe, so it was bound to have a lot of mistakes.

Toriyama clarified that Vegito and Gogeta are both equal in strength, so it wouldn't matter which fusion Goku would have chosen. Also, Goku's statement about Potara being no match for Beerus was kept in the anime, unlike the 70% line which was cut out.

Also and most importantly the bullshit headcanon that base fusions are strongest forms x 10 or more is bullshit, proven in the manga by Fused Zamasu = PSSB Goku and SSJ Kefla = Gohan.
Its also proven in the DBZ manga, as Gotenks after 1hour of outside time = 15 days of inside time in RoSat got stronger in his base form than he was previously in his SSJ form. So STOP with that bullshit

Did you read any further down? I'm the one who said fusion was Base •Base, so I agree with you.

Well since you didnt read my post on the previous page about fusion=potara, now i have to copy paste it.


As Ken Xyro stated and confirmed with multiple translators it wasnt reffering to power. Since i dont know if i can link stuff on here, here is the copy pasted part of the quote:
``Again, equally good does NOT mean equal power level.
They're referring to the techniques (Potara and Fusion) being "equally dependable" and the best trump cards.``
and also : ``Think of this sentence as "Fusion is just as dependable as Potara when it comes to being the ultimate trump card".
When they're referring to power they specifically mention power. The word used here simply means dependable / competent / efficient / qualified.``

We have the WSJ stating that Fusion is stronger and Gogeta would win if they fight, while the only way Vegito could win is if Gogeta defused.
In Super we have a quote stating that potara is their parts added together and multiplied by tens of times. We have also seen Fused Zamasu = PSSB Goku (FT arc) and SSJ Kefla = Gohan
We have seen in the movie that Base Gogeta > PSSB Goku (post ToP). So thats pretty conclusive imo.


Also why do you believe anime is canon and manga is not, when we know manga is written by Toriyama and Toyotaro draws it, with Toriyama changing Toyos stuff as he feels?

There's no point in debating which fusion is stronger because as it stands now there's nothing pointing to one being greater than the other.
We have WSJ from 1995 saying Gogeta, we then have Daizenshuu 7 stating that potara gives a greater increase in 1996. We have the SEG (2009) stating both Potara and Fusion are more like a multiplication of the two powers. Also for the 'new' WSJ blurb Herms went into more detail and pointed out that it says "izure-otoranu" literally "neither inferior (to the other)" I've pointed out on this site prior that I trust Herms translations over almost anybody else's as he has passed the highest level of the Japanese language proficiency test (JLPT N5). Though what Herms pointed out there doesn't have to be in regards to strength, it seems pretty peculiar how an "equally matched trump card" could get stomped in a certain instance if one is in fact weaker than the other. Honestly when speaking about the two trump cards in any other way than power it's clear as day that the Potara wins out as there's no chance of it failing, it's much easier to perform, and can last 30 minutes longer than fusion. When bearing all that in mind, it seems clear what the statement is implying when it says they're equally matched.
Even so, take it as power or not, and as it stands it seems to be up in the air for some. So lets say that this new blurb isn't used for a power comparison, so in that case we look back to prior information with there being two conflicting reports in the 90s and the most recent guide that gave us new information on the matter (so the Chozenshuu being a reprint in this regard is ignored) doesn't state that one is greater than the other, as even the SEG doesn't seem to distinguish a difference power wise.

Using the movie scaling, the mangas, or the animes is pretty strange right now as we geuinely have no idea what's going on with fusion, and most certainly I'd say that Toyo and the Toei staff aren't quite sure how to portray it as there is nothing truly definitive in regards to the boost (thats been released anyway) The manga and the Movie can align well as equal boosts of the two methods in regards to Vegetto and Gogeta, obviously Vegetto from the anime doesn't fit in with this... Then the anime has Kefla which can actually fit in with what we've seen from the boosts from the manga and movie, though it can be argued her boost is quite a bit higher.. I've seen manga Kefla being argued to contradict this in the manga, but people are quick to forget that she was made up from a weakened Caulifla and an incapactiated Kale, and as we've seen from the manga and anime the fusion has to have a senzu bean upon fusing, or the fusees need to eat a senzu prior to fusion. Though as I've said I don't believe that these fusions are being written with any strict laws applied to them.

[cantwaitanymore]

Oh, I couldn't tell your post was all over the place.


Because it's the official continuation while manga is promotional material.


Toriyama clarified that Vegito and Gogeta are both equal in strength, so it wouldn't matter which fusion Goku would have chosen. Also, Goku's statement about Potara being no match for Beerus was kept in the anime, unlike the 70% line which was cut out.

Did you read any further down? I'm the one who said fusion was Base •Base, so I agree with you.

Well since you didnt read my post on the previous page about fusion=potara, now i have to copy paste it.


As Ken Xyro stated and confirmed with multiple translators it wasnt reffering to power. Since i dont know if i can link stuff on here, here is the copy pasted part of the quote:
``Again, equally good does NOT mean equal power level.
They're referring to the techniques (Potara and Fusion) being "equally dependable" and the best trump cards.``
and also : ``Think of this sentence as "Fusion is just as dependable as Potara when it comes to being the ultimate trump card".
When they're referring to power they specifically mention power. The word used here simply means dependable / competent / efficient / qualified.``

We have the WSJ stating that Fusion is stronger and Gogeta would win if they fight, while the only way Vegito could win is if Gogeta defused.
In Super we have a quote stating that potara is their parts added together and multiplied by tens of times. We have also seen Fused Zamasu = PSSB Goku (FT arc) and SSJ Kefla = Gohan
We have seen in the movie that Base Gogeta > PSSB Goku (post ToP). So thats pretty conclusive imo.


Also why do you believe anime is canon and manga is not, when we know manga is written by Toriyama and Toyotaro draws it, with Toriyama changing Toyos stuff as he feels?

There's no point in debating which fusion is stronger because as it stands now there's nothing pointing to one being greater than the other.
We have WSJ from 1995 saying Gogeta, we then have Daizenshuu 7 stating that potara gives a greater increase in 1996. We have the SEG (2009) stating both Potara and Fusion are more like a multiplication of the two powers. Also for the 'new' WSJ blurb Herms went into more detail and pointed out that it says "izure-otoranu" literally "neither inferior (to the other)" I've pointed out on this site prior that I trust Herms translations over almost anybody else's as he has passed the highest level of the Japanese language proficiency test (JLPT N5). Though what Herms pointed out there doesn't have to be in regards to strength, it seems pretty peculiar how an "equally matched trump card" could get stomped in a certain instance if one is in fact weaker than the other. Honestly when speaking about the two trump cards in any other way than power it's clear as day that the Potara wins out as there's no chance of it failing, it's much easier to perform, and can last 30 minutes longer than fusion. When bearing all that in mind, it seems clear what the statement is implying when it says they're equally matched.
Even so, take it as power or not, and as it stands it seems to be up in the air for some. So lets say that this new blurb isn't used for a power comparison, so in that case we look back to prior information with there being two conflicting reports in the 90s and the most recent guide that gave us new information on the matter (so the Chozenshuu being a reprint in this regard is ignored) doesn't state that one is greater than the other, as even the SEG doesn't seem to distinguish a difference power wise.

Using the movie scaling, the mangas, or the animes is pretty strange right now as we geuinely have no idea what's going on with fusion, and most certainly I'd say that Toyo and the Toei staff aren't quite sure how to portray it as there is nothing truly definitive in regards to the boost (thats been released anyway) The manga and the Movie can align well as equal boosts of the two methods in regards to Vegetto and Gogeta, obviously Vegetto from the anime doesn't fit in with this... Then the anime has Kefla which can actually fit in with what we've seen from the boosts from the manga and movie, though it can be argued her boost is quite a bit higher.. I've seen manga Kefla being argued to contradict this in the manga, but people are quick to forget that she was made up from a weakened Caulifla and an incapactiated Kale, and as we've seen from the manga and anime the fusion has to have a senzu bean upon fusing, or the fusees need to eat a senzu prior to fusion. Though as I've said I don't believe that these fusions are being written with any strict laws applied to them.

Multiple translators > Herms. Everyone makes mistakes. Also Daizneshuu for all previous issues just copy pasted Elder Kai, only in D7 they changed to power greater than Fusion. No explanation, no reasoning, .Why didnt they write that in previous Daizenshuus and while series was running? Also everyone knows that Daizenshuu has many outright contradicting information with the series itself, and contradictions even among its own issues, sometimes even within the SAME issue where they state oposite info. WSJ came out just after the manga ended and 1 episode before Vegitos anime debut. They did a full detailed comparison, and were obviously in contact with the creators since they knew Metamoran garb was Toriyamas idea, and they even previewed the episode and Vegitos abilities vs Buu. Also and most importantly they provided clear reasoning as to why Fusion is stronger than Potara. As to SEG, it does state that both are multiplies, but this is only proven for Fusion, as Gotenks got stronger in his base form than he was in his SSJ form in 1h of outside time=15 days of inside ROSAT. That is clear proof that Fusion is a multiplication. On the other hand base Vegito didnt even attempt to fight Buuhan. If it was a multiplication he wouldnt have needed to go SSJ. In DBS Vados states (which i fully dont agree with, and anime is not canon, manga is) that Potara is the sum of their parts, multiplied by tens of times - not a multiplication. Now we have Base Gogeta > PSSB Goku. PSSB Goku from FT arc was equal to Fused Zamasu. Its pretty clear imo. But whoever you believe to be stronger, its most improtant that they are NOT equal. Herms makes mistakes. Ill gladly provide you with the screenshots, maybe in the DM if i cant here? Also can someone tell me if we are allowed to link stuff on here?

[Sora Saiyan]

Multiple translators > Herms. Everyone makes mistakes. Also Daizneshuu for all previous issues just copy pasted Elder Kai, only in D7 they changed to power greater than Fusion. No explanation, no reasoning, .Why didnt they write that in previous Daizenshuus and while series was running? Also everyone knows that Daizenshuu has many outright contradicting information with the series itself, and contradiction seven among its own issues, sometimes even within the SAME issue where they state oposite info. WSJ came out just after the manga ended and 1 episode before Vegitos anime debut. They did a full detailed comparison, and were obviously in contact with the creators since they knew Metamoran garb was Toriyamas idea, and they even previewed the episode. Also and most importantly they provided clear reasoning as to why Fusion is stronger than Potara. As to SEG, it does state that both are multiplies, but this is only proven for Fusion, as Gotenks got stronger in his base form than he was in his SSJ form in 1h of outside time=15 days of inside ROSAT. That is clear proof that Fusion is a multiplication. On the other hand base Vegito didnt even attempt to fight Buuhan. If it was a multiplication he wouldnt have needed to go SSJ. In DBS Vados states (which i fully dont agree with, and anime is not canon, manga is) that Potara is the sum of their parts, multiplied by tens of times - not a multiplication. Now we have Base Gogeta > PSSB Goku. PSSB Goku from FT arc was equal to Fused Zamasu. Its pretty clear imo. But whoever you believe to be stronger, its most improtant that they are NOT equal. Herms makes mistakes. Ill gladly provide you with the screenshots, maybe in the DM if i cant here? Also can someone tell me if we are allowed to link stuff on here?

Everybody makes mistakes, that's human nature, but overall Herms has something to prove his credibility at a high level.

The Daizenshuu 7 was the "DB Large encyclopedia." It went further with this stuff in most regards. It was also the Daizenshuu that went into the power level side of things, not to mention it's the largest, and the one that is mainly text based.
Anyway the Daizenshuu cover different aspects of the series.
D1: illustrations. D2: Story guide. D3: TV animation 1. D4: World Guide. D5: Animation 2. D6: Movie and TV specials. D7: Large encyclopedia. There's also the extra Daizenshuu which are the two cardass and the TV animation part 3.
For more information as to what they all contain look here. http://www.kanzenshuu.com/databook/daizenshuu/daiz-07/

Btw neither the Potara or Fusion dance yield an increase where the users powers are multiplied together. Trunks could land on Vegeta in the Buu arc so he wasn't absurdly weaker than him.
Even after going in the RoSaT and then fusing to become Gotenks they could only defeat Super Buu as a SSJ3. Vegetto on the other hand could outright stomp Buuhan who was made up of Buu who was close to SSJ3 Gotenks, and somebody plenty stronger in Gohan, and even Piccolo, Trunks and Goten but they weren't worth much here. Judging by Vegettos showing there's actually a chance that Base Vegetto could possibly match SSJ3 Gotenks. The boys power post RoSaT was probably pretty close to their fathers honestly, yet Gotenks was laughable when compared to Vegetto. Anyway that SEG multiplication was released in the past and it doesn't effect current DB which has changed plenty.

Right, Piccolos facepalm moment was clearly a gag, I'm not even gonna debate that one. Gags aren't meant to be taken seriously, they're there just to set up a laugh, and anyway that does nothing to disprove potara being multiplication. Again though both clearly weren't.
For SEG multipliers to work now SSJB would have to be a boost in the quadrillions range if multiplying Goku and Vegetas powers together, and that low balling massively.
That power has to translate to SSJB as the boost that fusion yielded wasn't a large enough gap between Base Gogeta and SSJB that he could win the fight without transforming. Infact all that Base Gogeta did was run, he's probably really close to a fully fresh SSJB. Honestly I don't by that Base Gogeta is quadrillions of times base Goku at then quadrillions of more times stronger than that when he becomes a SSJB. It makes no sense whatsoever. And remember the way I just calced it is lowballed using power levels pre god forms.

Vados statement came from Toei, and honestly it fits perfectly in line with what they said about SSJ4 Gogetas fusion increase being tens of times greater than a single SSJ4. Honestly Keflas is such a massive increase that it could be tens of times greater than Kales most powerful form, as base Kefla just shit all over SSJG.

Anyway, I've pointed out how that recent WSJ blurb comparing Gogeta and Vegetto doesn't make any sense unless its referring to power. You don't need to be able to translate Japanese at an insane level to be able to deduce that as it's clear as day outside of power, fusion isn't equally matched to potara in any way shape or form. I made these points clear in my last post.

[cantwaitanymore]

Multiple translators > Herms. Everyone makes mistakes. Also Daizneshuu for all previous issues just copy pasted Elder Kai, only in D7 they changed to power greater than Fusion. No explanation, no reasoning, .Why didnt they write that in previous Daizenshuus and while series was running? Also everyone knows that Daizenshuu has many outright contradicting information with the series itself, and contradiction seven among its own issues, sometimes even within the SAME issue where they state oposite info. WSJ came out just after the manga ended and 1 episode before Vegitos anime debut. They did a full detailed comparison, and were obviously in contact with the creators since they knew Metamoran garb was Toriyamas idea, and they even previewed the episode. Also and most importantly they provided clear reasoning as to why Fusion is stronger than Potara. As to SEG, it does state that both are multiplies, but this is only proven for Fusion, as Gotenks got stronger in his base form than he was in his SSJ form in 1h of outside time=15 days of inside ROSAT. That is clear proof that Fusion is a multiplication. On the other hand base Vegito didnt even attempt to fight Buuhan. If it was a multiplication he wouldnt have needed to go SSJ. In DBS Vados states (which i fully dont agree with, and anime is not canon, manga is) that Potara is the sum of their parts, multiplied by tens of times - not a multiplication. Now we have Base Gogeta > PSSB Goku. PSSB Goku from FT arc was equal to Fused Zamasu. Its pretty clear imo. But whoever you believe to be stronger, its most improtant that they are NOT equal. Herms makes mistakes. Ill gladly provide you with the screenshots, maybe in the DM if i cant here? Also can someone tell me if we are allowed to link stuff on here?

Everybody makes mistakes, that's human nature, but overall Herms has something to prove his credibility at a high level.

The Daizenshuu 7 was the "DB Large encyclopedia." It went further with this stuff in most regards. It was also the Daizenshuu that went into the power level side of things, not to mention it's the largest, and the one that is mainly text based.
Anyway the Daizenshuu cover different aspects of the series.
D1: illustrations. D2: Story guide. D3: TV animation 1. D4: World Guide. D5: Animation 2. D6: Movie and TV specials. D7: Large encyclopedia. There's also the extra Daizenshuu which are the two cardass and the TV animation part 3.
For more information as to what they all contain look here. http://www.kanzenshuu.com/databook/daizenshuu/daiz-07/

Btw neither the Potara or Fusion dance yield an increase where the users powers are multiplied together. Trunks could land on Vegeta in the Buu arc so he wasn't absurdly weaker than him.
Even after going in the RoSaT and then fusing to become Gotenks they could only defeat Super Buu as a SSJ3. Vegetto on the other hand could outright stomp Buuhan who was made up of Buu who was close to SSJ3 Gotenks, and somebody plenty stronger in Gohan, and even Piccolo, Trunks and Goten but they weren't worth much here. Judging by Vegettos showing there's actually a chance that Base Vegetto could possibly match SSJ3 Gotenks. The boys power post RoSaT was probably pretty close to their fathers honestly, yet Gotenks was laughable when compared to Vegetto. Anyway that SEG multiplication was released in the past and it doesn't effect current DB which has changed plenty.

Right, Piccolos facepalm moment was clearly a gag, I'm not even gonna debate that one. Gags aren't meant to be taken seriously, they're there just to set up a laugh, and anyway that does nothing to disprove potara being multiplication. Again though both clearly weren't.
For SEG multipliers to work now SSJB would have to be a boost in the quadrillions range if multiplying Goku and Vegetas powers together, and that low balling massively.
That power has to translate to SSJB as the boost that fusion yielded wasn't a large enough gap between Base Gogeta and SSJB that he could win the fight without transforming. Infact all that Base Gogeta did was run, he's probably really close to a fully fresh SSJB. Honestly I don't by that Base Gogeta is quadrillions of times base Goku at then quadrillions of more times stronger than that when he becomes a SSJB. It makes no sense whatsoever. And remember the way I just calced it is lowballed using power levels pre god forms.

Vados statement came from Toei, and honestly it fits perfectly in line with what they said about SSJ4 Gogetas fusion increase being tens of times greater than a single SSJ4. Honestly Keflas is such a massive increase that it could be tens of times greater than Kales most powerful form, as base Kefla just shit all over SSJG.

Anyway, I've pointed out how that recent WSJ blurb comparing Gogeta and Vegetto doesn't make any sense unless its referring to power. You don't need to be able to translate Japanese at an insane level to be able to deduce that as it's clear as day outside of power, fusion isn't equally matched to potara in any way shape or form. I made these points clear in my last post.

Well no need to debate further. Just because u follow Herms blindly, doesnt mean you are right. I provided facts, you provided opinions. Base Trunks couldnt move in 100x gravity in base thats A FACT, clearly showing how low his base was. I was never comparing Gotenks and his feats to Vegito. Just saying that its a fact that Base Gotenks post Rosat > SSJ Gotenks pre Rosat, which claerly shows that fusion IS a multiplication, as it it is IMPOSSIBLE for them individually to get more 50+ times stronger in 15 DAYS. GT is not canon, that statement in GT perfect files is meaningless and it doesnt align as i have previously explained with DBZ. Fused Zamasu = PSSB Goku. Thats a fact. Base Gogeta was stronger than PSSB Goku so its pretty obvious that its not tens of times stronger than base Goku, its astronomically higher than that.

Last thing i forgot, Daizenshuu from 1995 i remember for a FACT that it had Potara entry and it didnt say what D7 says about potara creatting a stronger warrior.
And to make it clear, I'm not comparing gotenks and his fight vs super buu, I'm usimg clear and factual statements from manga about his power. If need be ill post them here all. So you talking about his fight vs Buu doesnt contribute do anything about his actual power.

One last edit which i forgot to mention in repsonse to your last part. Yes it DOES make sense. AS the translators clearly said : ``Fusion is just as dependable as Potara when it comes to being the ultimate trump card".
When they're referring to power they specifically mention power. The word used here simply means dependable / competent / efficient / qualified``

In the comments people questioned this translation as Herms said its about POWER. This was the response: ``There can be different interpretations at times. And as I said, that word is just not used in a power sense. Even confirmed with other translators`` and he posts screenshots of confirming it with other translators. Ken Xyro says that this is one of the best translators he knows and this is that translators quote : ``Strongest trump cards" just refers the techniques being their ultimate weapon, very much like Spirit Bomb. Both are their strongest weapons which are equally-dependable (rather than equally-matched in terms of power``
Also another translator says that reading into it ANY more than that would be wrong and he agrees fully with the interpretation.

Here is another quote: ``The Japanese does put a strong emphasis on both being the ``strongest trump cards`` in their own scenarios rather that in powerlevels and such, as Ken said. The ``Otoranu`` suggests they are both up there in the list of strongests. Love them both regardless!``

So there you go.

[Hugo Boss]

The movie made very clear that Gogeta and Broly had equal strength. The thing that made the difference in the end was the mastery of Gogeta. Broly was just a behemoth.

if you believe that then explain to me, how did Broly hit SSB Goku so much when he was weaker? Goku has waaaaaay more mastery than Broly and Broly was also just a behemoth, so how is that possible? You would expect that he would pummel Gogeta when they are ``equal`` and yet he didnt land 1 punch.

Of course Broly wouldn’t be able to land a punch. Gogeta had all the time he needed to learn Broly’s fighting style. So, he avoided all Broly’s attacks and went for the openings. Though, when their blows/blasts encounter each other they are canceled out.

SSG Goku vs. Broly was an example of a weaker fighter getting the advantage for a while until the power difference became too large for Goku. When they became equal again with Blue, Goku would beat Broly if Freeza didn’t intervened.

[cantwaitanymore]

The movie made very clear that Gogeta and Broly had equal strength. The thing that made the difference in the end was the mastery of Gogeta. Broly was just a behemoth.

if you believe that then explain to me, how did Broly hit SSB Goku so much when he was weaker? Goku has waaaaaay more mastery than Broly and Broly was also just a behemoth, so how is that possible? You would expect that he would pummel Gogeta when they are ``equal`` and yet he didnt land 1 punch.

Of course Broly wouldn’t be able to land a punch. Gogeta had all the time he needed to learn Broly’s fighting style. So, he avoided all Broly’s attacks and went for the openings. Though, when their blows/blasts encounter each other they are canceled out.

SSG Goku vs. Broly was an example of a weaker fighter getting the advantage for a while until the power difference became too large for Goku. When they became equal again with Blue, Goku would beat Broly if Freeza didn’t intervened.

Vegeta (base) vs Broly: ``He is fast.He must have studied how to use his power``.
then Paragus says: ``It looks like prince Vegeta is a skilled fighter in his own right.``
to which Frieza adds: ``These saiyans have been through their fair share of battles over the years. Of course, you son seems adept at brawling himself, and yet Broly has never actually fought another person, correct``?
Paragus: ``Only during training matches with me``
Frieza: ``But fighting someone of your power level is practically meaningless. NOT TO WORRY, ITS OBVIOUS HE IS QUITE QUICK TO ADAPT.``

Vegeta goes SSJ, starts to whip Broly, but Broly then adapts and Vegeta states: ``Dammit, he is learning as he fights``
Goku adds: ``Wow, this guy is awesome, he is holding his own while still in his base form!``


Direct statements from the movie. Broly adapted instantly to all ``inexperience disadvantage``, let alone after 3 hours when he fought vs Gogeta. The only thing which he lacked at the start, as Frieza stated is that he never fought someone strong like Vegeta.
Never hinted, implied or stated that Gogeta whooped Broly because of the ``skill advantage``, it was gone at the start of the fight vs Vegeta.

[Hugo Boss]

Never hinted, implied or stated that Gogeta whooped Broly because of the ``skill advantage``, it was gone at the start of the fight vs Vegeta.

The movie doesn’t need to spell out everything for us. The fight itself very clear shows that Broly’s geniousness was overtook by his rage. You are literally the only person in this thread that is demanding such an explanation.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Spoiler:

if you believe that then explain to me, how did Broly hit SSB Goku so much when he was weaker? Goku has waaaaaay more mastery than Broly and Broly was also just a behemoth, so how is that possible? You would expect that he would pummel Gogeta when they are ``equal`` and yet he didnt land 1 punch.

Of course Broly wouldn’t be able to land a punch. Gogeta had all the time he needed to learn Broly’s fighting style. So, he avoided all Broly’s attacks and went for the openings. Though, when their blows/blasts encounter each other they are canceled out.

SSG Goku vs. Broly was an example of a weaker fighter getting the advantage for a while until the power difference became too large for Goku. When they became equal again with Blue, Goku would beat Broly if Freeza didn’t intervened.

Vegeta (base) vs Broly: ``He is fast.He must have studied how to use his power``.
then Paragus says: ``It looks like prince Vegeta is a skilled fighter in his own right.``
to which Frieza adds: ``These saiyans have been through their fair share of battles over the years. Of course, you son seems adept at brawling himself, and yet Broly has never actually fought another person, correct``?
Paragus: ``Only during training matches with me``
Frieza: ``But fighting someone of your power level is practically meaningless. NOT TO WORRY, ITS OBVIOUS HE IS QUITE QUICK TO ADAPT.``

Vegeta goes SSJ, starts to whip Broly, but Broly then adapts and Vegeta states: ``Dammit, he is learning as he fights``
Goku adds: ``Wow, this guy is awesome, he is holding his own while still in his base form!``


Direct statements from the movie. Broly adapted instantly to all ``inexperience disadvantage``, let alone after 3 hours when he fought vs Gogeta. The only thing which he lacked at the start, as Frieza stated is that he never fought someone strong like Vegeta.
Never hinted, implied or stated that Gogeta whooped Broly because of the ``skill advantage``, it was gone at the start of the fight vs Vegeta.

And yet after Vegeta goes SSG and Broly gives in to his Oozaru power, Paragus notes that Broly can't control himself. So, that adaptation goes right out the window. We even see this with Goku's fight with Broly, as he's able to momentarily keep up with an even stronger and faster Ikari Broly in base and Super Saiyan via good combat skill and having observed how Broly fought with Vegeta. We later see that SSG Goku uses Ikari Broly's predictable moves to turn his own size and strength against him, only being beaten out due to Broly just brute-forcing through everything.

And after that, Ikari Broly goes Super Saiyan, becoming even more mindless as would be expected of combining the uncontrollable power of Oozaru with the blinding rage of a Saiyan's first Super Saiyan transformation. He can't even differentiate between friend and foe anymore, going after Freeza and Whis despite having no real reason to do so.

SS Gogeta isn't inferior in strength like Goku and Vegeta were, meaning that having Goku and Vegeta's skill combined with equal strength would result in much better combat performance.