Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Speedster]

I think that regarding the "BOG Post-God Base/Super Saiyan" (gee, what a mouthful) there is still something that has been brought up a couple of pages ago that should be of interest: what if, like it has been said, that power-up was only temporary and dispersed over time (let's say a few hours or days) just like the fiery aura?

That is what is my theory too. That in Super version of the events, after the fight with Beerus, Goku's godly powers dispersed greatly. But Goku retained the potential to increase his power to Godly levels through training and SSJ transformations. He didn't have that potential before - it was unlocked by the ritual. Vegeta managed to unlock his way to that increase through his training with Whis.

[Hugo Boss]

I mean, the red form was supposed to disappear anyway, leaving the old Super Saiyan God weak enough for other evil Saiyans to kill him, right?

Pretty much, perhaps just like Goku he was able to keep Super Saiyan God's power for a while, then collapse due to stamina's loss.

[namekiansaiyan]

I just get the feeling now that everyone is talking out of their arse in this thread and writing in riddles. Can we just have a simple list saying where everyone in the current series stands in terms of power and compare from there.

[Noah]

What? Is ludicrous to think that Base God Goku/Vegeta are beyond a full powered Vegetto! It can't be!

[Bullza]

I just get the feeling now that everyone is talking out of their arse in this thread and writing in riddles. Can we just have a simple list saying where everyone in the current series stands in terms of power and compare from there.

We can't do one. Before we were all over the place with where base Goku's power relates to SSJG Goku's power.

Now because of Piccolo that's even more up in the air that it was before.

Like I said before it is as it seems and Piccolo really did become SSJG tier and that's just bad writing or there's more versions of Goku and Vegeta's powers than we though.

The latter is more likely to me because of confusions we'd had in the past anyway.

[namekiansaiyan]

I just get the feeling now that everyone is talking out of their arse in this thread and writing in riddles. Can we just have a simple list saying where everyone in the current series stands in terms of power and compare from there.

We can't do one. Before we were all over the place with where base Goku's power relates to SSJG Goku's power.

Now because of Piccolo that's even more up in the air that it was before.

Like I said before it is as it seems and Piccolo really did become SSJG tier and that's just bad writing or there's more versions of Goku and Vegeta's powers than we though.

The latter is more likely to me because of confusions we'd had in the past anyway.

Yeah this is all because of the Piccolo vs Frost fight which I knew if Piccolo performed well people will cause people to lose their minds. It seems like people are just making things up and their posts are contradicting the llast ones they made.

[Bullza]

Were just trying to make sense of what's going on because right now it doesn't make any sense for Piccolo to have got that strong so effortlessly and the two base Goku's theory is unnecessarily over complicating things.

[ekrolo2]

Wasn't Piccolo's super power the ability to bullshit massive strength gains out of his arse before fusing with Kami? He trains by himself for a few months and Gohan and reaches King Kai levels of power. He meditates for a few days and becomes strong enough to impress Nail (with the further implication if his power doubled from a Kami fusion, he'd own First Form Freeza) then reached near SSJ tier after the three year training.

[Bullza]

But Yamcha trained for the same amount of time and was boosted up to Raditz level and Tien and Krillin were comfortably above that level so they all had a huge boost.

He received a good boost after training with Goku for 3 years but his boost wasn't that significant after training in the ROSAT for a year. He supposedly always trained since then but he's always appeared to be weaker than a Super Saiyan.

This would be like a Frieza level boost but it doesn't make sense with Piccolo because he's trained his entire life.

[namekiansaiyan]

But Yamcha trained for the same amount of time and was boosted up to Raditz level and Tien and Krillin were comfortably above that level so they all had a huge boost.

He received a good boost after training with Goku for 3 years but his boost wasn't that significant after training in the ROSAT for a year. He supposedly always trained since then but he's always appeared to be weaker than a Super Saiyan.

This would be like a Frieza level boost but it doesn't make sense with Piccolo because he's trained his entire life.

To me it makes sense that Piccolo got a power he has got huge power ups in the past, so why not now and his training with Gohan seems intense aswell.

There are 2 types of people in this thread the ones that accept Piccolo has got a lot stronger and the ones that are going through the whole series again and examining every line to try a find a way to say that God ki works in a certain way and say that it is impossible for Piccolo to be that powerful. If you accept that Piccolo has got stronger then there is an answer to these power levels if you are the second type you will not come to a definitive conclusion as there is no real evidence

The one thing I think is harder to understand is how did Vegeta get so strong and to a SSGSS, I dont care if he trained with Whis there is no explanation at all really apart from Goku needs a rival.

[namekiansaiyan]

Wasn't Piccolo's super power the ability to bullshit massive strength gains out of his arse before fusing with Kami? He trains by himself for a few months and Gohan and reaches King Kai levels of power. He meditates for a few days and becomes strong enough to impress Nail (with the further implication if his power doubled from a Kami fusion, he'd own First Form Freeza) then reached near SSJ tier after the three year training.

So you basically explained why Piccolo got so strong now.

[ekrolo2]

But Yamcha trained for the same amount of time and was boosted up to Raditz level and Tien and Krillin were comfortably above that level so they all had a huge boost.

He received a good boost after training with Goku for 3 years but his boost wasn't that significant after training in the ROSAT for a year. He supposedly always trained since then but he's always appeared to be weaker than a Super Saiyan.

This would be like a Frieza level boost but it doesn't make sense with Piccolo because he's trained his entire life.

Precisely why I said bullshit power boosts. Piccolo trains by himself and with a little kid yet he makes better strength gains because.... he's an alien warrior type Namekian I guess? Even though the humans have actual quality sparring partners and Kami & Popo directing them, he's still above them because reasons. Same thing on King Kai's, he gets that much stronger because reasons.

Bullshit power ups were his bread and butter until Toriyama just decided to stop keeping him combatively viable after his battle with 17.

[LowRyder2005]

But Yamcha trained for the same amount of time and was boosted up to Raditz level and Tien and Krillin were comfortably above that level so they all had a huge boost.

He received a good boost after training with Goku for 3 years but his boost wasn't that significant after training in the ROSAT for a year. He supposedly always trained since then but he's always appeared to be weaker than a Super Saiyan.

This would be like a Frieza level boost but it doesn't make sense with Piccolo because he's trained his entire life.

To me it makes sense that Piccolo got a power [up] he has got huge power ups in the past, so why not now and his training with Gohan seems intense aswell.

The one thing I think is harder to understand is how did Vegeta get so strong and to a SSGSS, I dont care if he trained with Whis there is no explanation at all really apart from Goku needs a rival.

I'm afraid this doesn't make much sense.
You don't care if Vegeta trains with the strongest person in the universe, yet Piccolo trains on his own with a weaker Gohan and becomes - proportionally - way stronger than the same Vegeta who trained with the strongest person in the universe? THAT would be easier to believe, no, it's natural everyone would have to accept it? And if they don't they are downplaying Piccolo?
You are literally operating double standards for Piccolo and Vegeta here. The fact that he trained with Whis IS the explanation.

Not only that, it has been established that Piccolo never had such an out-of-the-blue power-up. Even in the Android Saga - possibly his biggest jump - he had trained with Super Saiyan Goku and never had such an out of proportion boost. If you want proportions, again, it would be like pre-Android Piccolo and pre-Android Vegeta training together and getting as strong as Cell in six months.

[namekiansaiyan]

But Yamcha trained for the same amount of time and was boosted up to Raditz level and Tien and Krillin were comfortably above that level so they all had a huge boost.

He received a good boost after training with Goku for 3 years but his boost wasn't that significant after training in the ROSAT for a year. He supposedly always trained since then but he's always appeared to be weaker than a Super Saiyan.

This would be like a Frieza level boost but it doesn't make sense with Piccolo because he's trained his entire life.

Precisely why I said bullshit power boosts. Piccolo trains by himself and with a little kid yet he makes better strength gains because.... he's an alien warrior type Namekian I guess? Even though the humans have actual quality sparring partners and Kami & Popo directing them, he's still above them because reasons. Same thing on King Kai's, he gets that much stronger because reasons.

Bullshit power ups were his bread and butter until Toriyama just decided to stop keeping him combatively viable after his battle with 17.

So why are people not accepting these bullshit power ups now

[LowRyder2005]

But Yamcha trained for the same amount of time and was boosted up to Raditz level and Tien and Krillin were comfortably above that level so they all had a huge boost.

He received a good boost after training with Goku for 3 years but his boost wasn't that significant after training in the ROSAT for a year. He supposedly always trained since then but he's always appeared to be weaker than a Super Saiyan.

This would be like a Frieza level boost but it doesn't make sense with Piccolo because he's trained his entire life.

Precisely why I said bullshit power boosts. Piccolo trains by himself and with a little kid yet he makes better strength gains because.... he's an alien warrior type Namekian I guess? Even though the humans have actual quality sparring partners and Kami & Popo directing them, he's still above them because reasons. Same thing on King Kai's, he gets that much stronger because reasons.

Bullshit power ups were his bread and butter until Toriyama just decided to stop keeping him combatively viable after his battle with 17.

So why are people not accepting these bullshit power ups now

There are two things you are leaving out here:

- Vegeta has been acknowledged as being massively stronger by having him equal to post-God Goku.

- Piccolo not only hasn't been acknowledged, but he is still treated like a low-tier who is less important to the team than Good Buu; you are acting like people told Piccolo "hey, you are as strong as a Super Saiyan God" when all they've done so far is "oh, I guess we're left with Piccolo..."; "hey, Good Buu is crazy strong though!"; "OH, CRAP, Good Buu can't fight... we're doomed", "Piccolo has to fight...? He's doomed".
Gohan too is still weaker, remember he has to try and convince Goku to get in the team when it should be a no-brainer to bring him along if he's on an Ultimate Gohan tier (way, waaay stronger than Good Buu) again.

[Sandubadear]

I put off doing a power level list until the arc is over since nothing is making any sense lol.

[Speedster]

As indicated by the following conversation when recruiting fighters Piccolo is still below Buu.

Kuririn: So who are you gonna have the last two [fighters] be?
Goku: We definitely can't leave Buu out.
Vegeta: I know the bad Buu was removed from him but are you sure that’s a good idea? When he fought Beerus, he got taken out in one hit.
Goku: Still, if he gets serious, he’s crazy strong, right?
Kuririn: Yeah.
Vegeta: Fine then.
Goku: Oh yeah, did you know? The bad Buu was reborn as a good human kid! Ain’t that exciting? Enma-sama told me.
Vegeta: He didn’t just get reborn. You actually asked for that to happen, didn't you?
Goku: Hehe
Vegeta: But if he’s just been born, he won't be able to compete.
Goku: True. That just leaves us with Piccolo then, I guess.

From the above it is obvious that both good and kid Buu are considered above Piccolo. Goku was willing to recruit Uub (he was assuming Uub is as powerful as kid Buu) over Piccolo, only for this to be dismissed as Uub is still an infant. But the point is that Goku was preferring someone of kid Buu's level over Piccolo. Plus Buu had to be definitely chosen. That conversation wouldn’t be there if it weren't true. Forget the bullshit SSJ3 x4 static multiplier in a guidebook. Buu is strong. Much stronger than Cell or SSJ2 Gohan during the Cell games. That means there is a lot of gap between where Piccolo was last left in the Cell games and where Buu is. Given the fights of base Goku and Piccolo it is perfectly possible the base Saiyans and Piccolo to be around or above Cell’s level but below Buu’s.

[ekrolo2]

As indicated by the following conversation when recruiting fighters Piccolo is still below Buu.

Kuririn: So who are you gonna have the last two [fighters] be?
Goku: We definitely can't leave Buu out.
Vegeta: I know the bad Buu was removed from him but are you sure that’s a good idea? When he fought Beerus, he got taken out in one hit.
Goku: Still, if he gets serious, he’s crazy strong, right?
Kuririn: Yeah.
Vegeta: Fine then.
Goku: Oh yeah, did you know? The bad Buu was reborn as a good human kid! Ain’t that exciting? Enma-sama told me.
Vegeta: He didn’t just get reborn. You actually asked for that to happen, didn't you?
Goku: Hehe
Vegeta: But if he’s just been born, he won't be able to compete.
Goku: True. That just leaves us with Piccolo then, I guess.

From the above it is obvious that both good and kid Buu are considered above Piccolo. Goku was willing to recruit Uub (he was assuming Uub is as powerful as kid Buu) over Piccolo, only for this to be dismissed as Uub is still an infant. But the point is that Goku was preferring someone of kid Buu's level over Piccolo. Plus Buu had to be definitely chosen. That conversation wouldn’t be there if it weren't true. Forget the bullshit SSJ3 x4 static multiplier in a guidebook. Buu is strong. Much stronger than Cell or SSJ2 Gohan during the Cell games. That means there is a lot of gap between where Piccolo was last left in the Cell games and where Buu is. Given the fights of base Goku and Piccolo it is perfectly possible the base Saiyans and Piccolo to be around or above Cell’s level but below Buu’s.

It's very doubtful they're not above Boo. First Form Freeza is able to blast right through SSJ Gohan who's power is close to where his Boo Saga self was at Ultimate. At the very least, Goku & Vegeta at base are at Bootenks levels of power.

[namekiansaiyan]

As indicated by the following conversation when recruiting fighters Piccolo is still below Buu.

Kuririn: So who are you gonna have the last two [fighters] be?
Goku: We definitely can't leave Buu out.
Vegeta: I know the bad Buu was removed from him but are you sure that’s a good idea? When he fought Beerus, he got taken out in one hit.
Goku: Still, if he gets serious, he’s crazy strong, right?
Kuririn: Yeah.
Vegeta: Fine then.
Goku: Oh yeah, did you know? The bad Buu was reborn as a good human kid! Ain’t that exciting? Enma-sama told me.
Vegeta: He didn’t just get reborn. You actually asked for that to happen, didn't you?
Goku: Hehe
Vegeta: But if he’s just been born, he won't be able to compete.
Goku: True. That just leaves us with Piccolo then, I guess.

From the above it is obvious that both good and kid Buu are considered above Piccolo. Goku was willing to recruit Uub (he was assuming Uub is as powerful as kid Buu) over Piccolo, only for this to be dismissed as Uub is still an infant. But the point is that Goku was preferring someone of kid Buu's level over Piccolo. Plus Buu had to be definitely chosen. That conversation wouldn’t be there if it weren't true. Forget the bullshit SSJ3 x4 static multiplier in a guidebook. Buu is strong. Much stronger than Cell or SSJ2 Gohan during the Cell games. That means there is a lot of gap between where Piccolo was last left in the Cell games and where Buu is. Given the fights of base Goku and Piccolo it is perfectly possible the base Saiyans and Piccolo to be around or above Cell’s level but below Buu’s.

Goku has no clue how strong Piccolo is as evidenced by Piccolo saying everyone is understimating me. This is the most important line when talking about Piccolo's power as it is the most recent coment.

[Speedster]

It's very doubtful they're not above Boo. First Form Freeza is able to blast right through SSJ Gohan who's power is close to where his Boo Saga self was at Ultimate. At the very least, Goku & Vegeta at base are at Bootenks levels of power.

I doubt Gohan is anywhere near his Ultimate form as a Super Saiyan in FnF. Quite the opposite. As he had trouble turning SSJ1 in FnF I can even support that in FnF SSJ1 Gohan was below what he was as SSJ1 at the start of the Buu arc.

1. No.17, No.18
2. No.16
3. Semi-Perfect Cell
4. Regular SS Vegeta (post-RoSaT)
5. Super Vegeta (SS Grade II)
6. SSJ1 Vegeta (Cell Games), SSJ1 Gohan (FnF)
7. SSJ1 Gohan (Buu arc)
8. SSJ1 Goku, SSJ1 Gohan (Cell Games)
9. Perfect Cell (full power)
10. Super Perfect Cell, Dabra
11. SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Games)
12. Majin Vegeta, SSJ2 Goku (Buu arc)
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
18. Buu

You can place Freeza's first form in FnF on level 13 and be vastly superior to anyone present on his arrival.

12. Majin Vegeta, SSJ2 Goku (Buu arc)
13. First form Freeza (FnF)
14. Final form Freeza, Base Goku/Vegeta (FnF), Piccolo (U6)
15. Third Form Frost, Base Goku/Vegeta (U6), Weakened final Form Frost
16. Final Form Frost
17.
18. Buu