Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Seems to overcomplicate matters by coming up with a fan made theory for it rather than just say Super Saiyan God was never as strong as Fusion.

Kale and Caulifla never had Super Saiyan God or Super Saiyan Blue and they're Base form was still stronger than Super Saiyan God.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Seems to overcomplicate matters by coming up with a fan made theory for it rather than just say Super Saiyan God was never as strong as Fusion.

Kale and Caulifla never had Super Saiyan God or Super Saiyan Blue and they're Base form was still stronger than Super Saiyan God.

Kale was holding up decently in her controlled Berserker form and Vados stated the fusion multiplied their power by tens of times, I certainly don't think she was tens of times weaker than Goku.

Anyway, it is just a theory that may get completely debunked like the two base thing.

[Hugo Boss]

Kale and Caulifla never had Super Saiyan God or Super Saiyan Blue and they're Base form was still stronger than Super Saiyan God.

Good point. If they somehow achieve SSG and the gap between their forms become smaller, that would make their normal forms much stronger than Goku’s, which doesn’t seem to be the case. The gap between their forms is more or less similar to what Goku and Vegeta have now, which doesn’t need to be all that different from what it always was.

Edit: Why are we discussing this in two different threads?

[ssj3kakarot]

When someone uses a dragon ball card power level to prove their point,it only devalues their platform. Especially because we see someone like Cooler also in the card line up. Doesn't speak volumes for your case. I don't use a couple of cards to get my information, neither do I use them to try and support or deny my position. Just watch the movie again, Gogeta is practically toying with FP Broly. Granted this is my opinion on what the visual ques that were given us as viewers. You have your opinion, I just believe that there is a mountain of evidence that makes your opinion the wrong one.

I’m not trying to prove a point. Just pointing the irony on your comment. You are entitled to think they have different powerlevel, but official merchandise says otherwise. Yours or my opinion don’t have any impact on the grand schemes of things.

How much was UI Goku and Jiren again?

It's really curious that Ikari Broly is only 7000. My thinking of Goku being considerable weakened when he used Blue in the movie is looking likely now.

Goku was at 9,600 and Jiren at 9,500. Old LSS Broly was at 7,000 too.

I guess my point is that bandai is entitled to do what they want with their PL rankings but they are by no means "official" as you put it in regards retconning something displayed or demonstrated in the actual official material, ie: the movie itself.
Just because bandai puts it out, doesn't mean it supersedes what has been established by the author.

[ssj3kakarot]

Seems to overcomplicate matters by coming up with a fan made theory for it rather than just say Super Saiyan God was never as strong as Fusion.

Kale and Caulifla never had Super Saiyan God or Super Saiyan Blue and they're Base form was still stronger than Super Saiyan God.

But it was, infact it was much stronger, as per direct confirmation from Goku himself. I think Super just didn't plan ahead far enough and figure out how to make all this power levels stuff make sense over the next few arcs. Just bad planning, and then people have to make things up. Ah well.

[Bullza]

But it was, infact it was much stronger, as per direct confirmation from Goku himself.

Which confirmation is this? The only thing that we ever compared it previously was Goku saying that Fusion wasn't good enough to beat Beerus and then he goes to seek out this other thing called Super Saiyan God so you kind of assumed it was probably better.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Fusions is just stronger than the individuals max. That's just it. It's not a theory (hypothesis is the correct word) it doesn't even involve a complicated multiplier. Of course vegito back then wouldn't have been stronger than ssg, the ritual itself boosted goku to a new domain of power he didn't even know existed. It was made clear that after that, he kept some God levels of power in just base, which is the reason why fusions right now have such levels of power.

Unless people are really gonna argue that a SSB Goku back in z would just be just on par with buuhan and below base vegito... or worse If you don't believe base vegito in the manga is as strong as buuhan.

[Kenneth La Torre]

The only thing this movie made clear is that fusion is extremely OP. I can't really imagine what level of power it will produce once a fusion reaches the state of UI.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The only thing this movie made clear is that fusion is extremely OP. I can't really imagine what level of power it will produce once a fusion reaches the state of UI.

Ultra Instinct itself put Goku at the level of if not above a perfect Fusion using SSB. That combination would probably be enough to maybe beat El Grande Padre

[Kenneth La Torre]

The only thing this movie made clear is that fusion is extremely OP. I can't really imagine what level of power it will produce once a fusion reaches the state of UI.

Ultra Instinct itself put Goku at the level of if not above a perfect Fusion using SSB. That combination would probably be enough to maybe beat El Grande Padre

Where UI stands in comparison with a ssb fusion is unknown. However, Gogeta can stomp top tier hakaishin level foes (if one is to believe beerus is one of, if not the strongest hakaishin). It's a matter of if jiren is actually meant to be above beerus, or just his god, and if yes, does he outclass him as much as gogeta outclassed broly. My standing is SSB Gogeta > MUI Goku > LB Jiren > Broly > Jiren

But that combination should at the very least put gogeta or vegito at whis level. At least.

[Hugo Boss]

I guess my point is that bandai is entitled to do what they want with their PL rankings but they are by no means "official" as you put it in regards retconning something displayed or demonstrated in the actual official material, ie: the movie itself.
Just because bandai puts it out, doesn't mean it supersedes what has been established by the author.

Shueisha gave Bandai the rights over merchandise and gave Toei the rights over animation. By consequence, those stickers and the movie are both “official” products. What you are probably trying to say is that whatever the movie says should be the norm when it comes to powerscalling stuff. Anyway, even not counting the merchandise, people are still in conflict about this matter.

[ZombieVito]

I guess my point is that bandai is entitled to do what they want with their PL rankings but they are by no means "official" as you put it in regards retconning something displayed or demonstrated in the actual official material, ie: the movie itself.
Just because bandai puts it out, doesn't mean it supersedes what has been established by the author.

Shueisha gave Bandai the rights over merchandise and gave Toei the rights over animation. By consequence, those stickers and the movie are both “official” products. What you are probably trying to say is that whatever the movie says should be the norm when it comes to powerscalling stuff. Anyway, even not counting the merchandise, people are still in conflict about this matter.

I'm curious.

Is there any card saying Gotenks power but from the Super series?

[Bullza]

So what is the consensus here on Jiren vs Broly?

[TheUltimateNinja]

So what is the consensus here on Jiren vs Broly?

According to the promotional material and Freeza in the novel, Broly is the strongest dude ever. I don't really buy it, though. To me, Jiren is clearly superior.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So what is the consensus here on Jiren vs Broly?

At the very least, Jiren has a clear handle on his strength and can properly fight, unlike Broly who only attained that level by losing all control. So, Broly would lose simply because his fighting ability is dampened by his rage and uncontrollable power.

[Bullza]

Even then if Broly isn't too far off from Beerus then Jiren should be stronger anyway right?

Ultra Instinct Goku should also probably be stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta you'd think. Going by Dragon Ball Heroes, Ultra Instinct is on a whole other level from Fusion.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Even then if Broly isn't too far off from Beerus then Jiren should be stronger anyway right?

Ultra Instinct Goku should also probably be stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta you'd think. Going by Dragon Ball Heroes, Ultra Instinct is on a whole other level from Fusion.

Yeah, that much should be clear. Jiren was stated to be the mortal stronger than a GoD stronger than Beerus even before he broke his limits. I don't know if the showrunners think this way, though.

[ssj3kakarot]

So what is the consensus here on Jiren vs Broly?

According to the promotional material and Freeza in the novel, Broly is the strongest dude ever. I don't really buy it, though. To me, Jiren is clearly superior.

What exactly was said about Broly, I actually don't know. Goku has tangled with beings far superior to the likes of Jiren or Broly, ie: Whis. But everyone knows that Whis is leagues of above anything we've seen. Is it worded to mean the strongest "villain" that Goku has fought, excluded Jiren as an actually villain because it's a tournament. Or the strongest person that has engaged Goku in battle, clearly excluded his training with Whis?

Jiren to me is also superior.

[TheUltimateNinja]

So what is the consensus here on Jiren vs Broly?

According to the promotional material and Freeza in the novel, Broly is the strongest dude ever. I don't really buy it, though. To me, Jiren is clearly superior.

What exactly was said about Broly, I actually don't know. Goku has tangled with beings far superior to the likes of Jiren or Broly, ie: Whis. But everyone knows that Whis is leagues of above anything we've seen. Is it worded to mean the strongest "villain" that Goku has fought, excluded Jiren as an actually villain because it's a tournament. Or the strongest person that has engaged Goku in battle, clearly excluded his training with Whis?

Jiren to me is also superior.

Broly is referred to as the strongest enemy in history, and in the novel Freeza says there isn't a being in existence who can beat him.

[PFM18]

Which of Broly's forms can FT Arc SSJB Vegito beat?

Well, Vegetto Blue got the same/similar power statement than Broly did.

So it's a toss up who would win but I guess Broly can endure the time limit.

That only applies to the manga