Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ekrolo2]

It's very doubtful they're not above Boo. First Form Freeza is able to blast right through SSJ Gohan who's power is close to where his Boo Saga self was at Ultimate. At the very least, Goku & Vegeta at base are at Bootenks levels of power.

I doubt Gohan is anywhere near his Ultimate form as a Super Saiyan in FnF. Quite the opposite. As he had trouble turning SSJ1 in FnF I can even support that in FnF SSJ1 Gohan was below what he was as SSJ1 at the start of the Buu arc.

Except Gohan is capable of holding his own in his base form against Tagoma and even when Ginyu takes him over whereas Piccolo got smashed like a punk. Gohan takes a good amount more punishment and despite his weakened body, still finds the strength to turn SSJ. That alone makes it impossible for him to be as low as you're suggesting unless Piccolo dropped by a wide margin.

[dbzfan7]

It's very doubtful they're not above Boo. First Form Freeza is able to blast right through SSJ Gohan who's power is close to where his Boo Saga self was at Ultimate. At the very least, Goku & Vegeta at base are at Bootenks levels of power.

I doubt Gohan is anywhere near his Ultimate form as a Super Saiyan in FnF. Quite the opposite. As he had trouble turning SSJ1 in FnF I can even support that in FnF SSJ1 Gohan was below what he was as SSJ1 at the start of the Buu arc.

I'm still debating whether he is on par with his Boo arc self or weaker. I think even weaker might make more sense if SSJ is too hard to control. I ain't gonna wank the shit out of Gohan's possibilities, despite how easily I probably could with the wank scaling going on. As far as I'm concerned so far, he's still training under the basics again with Piccolo, so he's trying to make his way back. Learning the basics may be why he doesn't just use the Super easy convent power up.

[namekiansaiyan]

It's very doubtful they're not above Boo. First Form Freeza is able to blast right through SSJ Gohan who's power is close to where his Boo Saga self was at Ultimate. At the very least, Goku & Vegeta at base are at Bootenks levels of power.

I doubt Gohan is anywhere near his Ultimate form as a Super Saiyan in FnF. Quite the opposite. As he had trouble turning SSJ1 in FnF I can even support that in FnF SSJ1 Gohan was below what he was as SSJ1 at the start of the Buu arc.

1. No.17, No.18
2. No.16
3. Semi-Perfect Cell
4. Regular SS Vegeta (post-RoSaT)
5. Super Vegeta (SS Grade II)
6. SSJ1 Vegeta (Cell Games), SSJ1 Gohan (FnF)
7. SSJ1 Gohan (Buu arc)
8. SSJ1 Goku, SSJ1 Gohan (Cell Games)
9. Perfect Cell (full power)
10. Super Perfect Cell, Dabra
11. SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Games)
12. Majin Vegeta, SSJ2 Goku (Buu arc)
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
18. Buu

You can place Freeza's first form in FnF on level 13 and be vastly superior to anyone present on his arrival.

12. Majin Vegeta, SSJ2 Goku (Buu arc)
13. First form Freeza (FnF)
14. Final form Freeza, Base Goku/Vegeta (FnF), Piccolo (U6)
15. Third Form Frost, Base Goku/Vegeta (U6), Weakened final Form Frost
16. Final Form Frost
17.
18. Buu

Put Botamo 12, Buu 13, final form Frieza 15, Piccolo 16 and final form Frost 17.

[ZombieVito]

Can't be. Goku said that Uub was as powerful as Goku expected him to be.

Why can't that be accurate? Did non-Golden Freeza even do anything besides beat up SS Gohan and Piccolo?

I just can't see the numbers work. Base Godku can't be that weak.

Unless you use a much bigger multiplier for Super Saiyan Blue.

[Bullza]

Except Gohan is capable of holding his own in his base form against Tagoma and even when Ginyu takes him over whereas Piccolo got smashed like a punk. Gohan takes a good amount more punishment and despite his weakened body, still finds the strength to turn SSJ. That alone makes it impossible for him to be as low as you're suggesting unless Piccolo dropped by a wide margin.

Well Piccolo was wearing his weighted clothing when he fought against Tagoma. He didn't when he fought Gohan it fought Shisami in the movie who practically just had Tagoma's role.

[supercat]

I agree with ekrolo2, SSJ Gohan (FnF) was likely on par with his Ultimate incarnation from the Buu arc; the lowest I'd place the former is a few notches above Super Buu.

Namekiansaiyan, I concur with your placement of Frost, Piccolo, and Final Form Frieza; there's really not much evidence supporting Buu > First Form Frieza let alone Buu > Final Form Frieza

I personally believe that Final Form Frieza (FnF) would at least be able to tangle with a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto from the Buu arc.

In short, I adhere to the following:

1. Vados
2. Whis
3. Beerus
4. Champa
5. SSB / Goku / Vegeta (Champa)
6. Golden Frieza
7. SSB / Goku / Vegeta (FnF)
8. SSJ Goku (Champa)
9. SSG Goku (BoG)
10. Final Form Frost
11. Piccolo
12. Frost Assault Form
13. Base Goku (Champa)
14. Final Form Frieza (FnF)
15. SSJ Vegetto (Buu arc)
16. First Form Frieza = Buuhan
17. First Form Frost
18. Buutenks
19. Ultimate Gohan
20. SSJ Gohan (FnF)
21. Super Buu
22. Kid Buu
23. Ginyu

I won't bother listing the rest, as they are basically irrelevant at this point.

[namekiansaiyan]

I agree with ekrolo2, SSJ Gohan (FnF) was likely on par with his Ultimate incarnation from the Buu arc; the lowest I'd place the former is a few notches above Super Buu.

Namekiansaiyan, I concur with your placement of Frost, Piccolo, and Final Form Frieza; there's really not much evidence supporting Buu > First Form Frieza let alone Buu > Final Form Frieza

I personally believe that Final Form Frieza (FnF) would at least be able to tangle with a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto from the Buu arc.

In short, I adhere to the following:

1. Vados
2. Whis
3. Beerus
4. Champa
5. SSB / Goku / Vegeta (Champa)
6. Golden Frieza
7. SSB / Goku / Vegeta (FnF)
8. SSJ Goku (Champa)
9. SSG Goku (BoG)
10. Final Form Frost
11. Piccolo
12. Frost Assault Form
13. Base Goku (Champa)
14. Final Form Frieza (FnF)
15. SSJ Vegetto (Buu arc)
16. First Form Frieza = Buuhan
17. First Form Frost
18. Buutenks
19. Ultimate Gohan
20. SSJ Gohan (FnF)
21. Super Buu
22. Kid Buu
23. Ginyu

I won't bother listing the rest, as they are basically irrelevant at this point.

I put
Beerus = Champa
Whis = Vados
simply because the is no real evidence to say one is above the other if 1 was then it would not really make a difference in battle. Buu is really just a guess and the hardest to place out of everyone.

[ekrolo2]

Except Gohan is capable of holding his own in his base form against Tagoma and even when Ginyu takes him over whereas Piccolo got smashed like a punk. Gohan takes a good amount more punishment and despite his weakened body, still finds the strength to turn SSJ. That alone makes it impossible for him to be as low as you're suggesting unless Piccolo dropped by a wide margin.

Well Piccolo was wearing his weighted clothing when he fought against Tagoma. He didn't when he fought Gohan it fought Shisami in the movie who practically just had Tagoma's role.

Weighted clothing stopped mattering after the Raditz fight. Piccolo can materialize any clothing he wants so the only reason it looks the same as the rest is because he wants it that way. If it was really heavy and factored in any way to his strength, he'd have ditched it.

[LowRyder2005]

We're going to the extreme end, now. It's nearly unfathomable to think Gohan can be on par with his Ultimate form in Fukkatsu no F.
He won't train and in the series it's been already established that lack of training will most likely weaken you to some extent, plus he can barely go Super Saiyan (indicating the lack of training had way worse effects than the lack of training during the Cell-Buu timeskip, at that time he could still go Super Saiyan 2 at least)... but hey, actually he is not weaker at all? And why is Gohan himself talking like "hey, Good Buu is not here but at least I don't think I'm entirely useless", then? People already act like Buu is the third-strongest person after Goku and Vegeta (and Gotenks, but just because Goten and Trunks were already out of the picture). "Oh, Goku and Vegeta are not here... but I suppose we can do fine as long as Majin Buu helps us".
It's then that they hope for Gohan to have trained again, so that he can compensate for Buu's lack of any appearance.



Line of reasoning:
1. Majin Buu is not here, crap; Gohan are you at least training, though?
2. No... b-but hey, I still have my Super Saiyan... possibly!

In other words, in order of preferability:

0. Goten and Trunks (can't come)
1. Goku and Vegeta
2. Majin Buu/ Gohan with some training
3. Gohan with some training
4. Gohan as he is at that very moment

This in Fukkatsu no F.
If that is not enough for you, we have the Champa saga that further clarifies this:

1. Gohan says after training he is still getting his old power back, that he's still getting the basics done. How in the world does this mean he is stronger than ever? Would you say you are still rusty if you're in your best shape yet?
2. Let's say Goku has seen Gohan fighting and he's now even STRONGER than his Ultimate form (because he trains): Goku still considers Good Buu a more viable alternative (he is fine leaving "Super Ultimate" Gohan out for the much weaker Good Buu while talking with Piccolo about his recruitment) and Gohan has to try to convince him to bring him along? Good Buu is preferred to an Ultimate Gohan stronger than ever because Gohan lacks the fighting spirit? It sounds silly, never mentioning forced.

Realistically, someone could go as far as say that Gohan has gone back to the level he was "when he could barely use the Super Saiyan" in Fukkatsu no F, therefore we would be talking about mid-Android Saga, when he was training in the ROSAT with Goku. We are shown a lot of the times in the anime series the Chou form is akin to a Super Saiyan form (he needs a kiai) and he most likely can't access that too.
At most, if you want to be really generous, he is on a level comparable to Super Saiyan Goku in the Buu saga - theorizing he lost just his Ultimate Form and not the fruits of his training with the Z-sword.

Otherwise, how other characters see Gohan and how Gohan sees himself would be incomprehensible to the reader.

[ZombieVito]

I wonder if Gohan necessarily has to be stronger than Piccolo in base.

Why did Piccolo attack Tagoma if he almost killed Gohan?

[LowRyder2005]

I wonder if Gohan necessarily has to be stronger than Piccolo in base.

Why did Piccolo attack Tagoma if he almost killed Gohan?

Well, trying to be Piccolo's advocate here, Piccolo was still using the weighted clothing (which he always removes before going all-out) and they had to battle 1000 soldiers before.
It could even be Piccolo was just a lot more tired than Gohan (and again, he had fought that far with a bigger handicap); but most importantly, it's not like base Gohan manages to actually hurt Tagoma-Ginyu before going Super Saiyan, he tries to land a few punches, but really just gets ragdolled in the end like Piccolo, Krillin, Tien and the others when Tagoma-Ginyu decides to counter-attack.

Plus, there would be another question: why would Gohan choose to train under Piccolo if he was already way stronger than him in base too? Okay, Goku trains together with King Kai, but I doubt King Kai can teach him anything any more.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Then, you are in the wrong thread, as here we are discussing about Toei’s Dragonball Super anime. If you want to adhere to the movie version then the following thread is more suitable for you: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14197

You are not a moderator to tell me what & where to post. The movies are relevant to Dragon Ball Super, so I can talk about them here, unless if a moderator tells me not to.

Base Goku in Super only punched that ball. He did nothing else. In your movie which you are so fond of, this was the equivalent moment of when Goku momentarily turned back into red-haired SSG and absorbed the ball. In Super we can perfectly assume that the feat was due to a momentary huge boost in his base.

Or it happened because Goku was at SSG level already.

1. When both Goku and Freeza went from their base forms to their transformed states it was considered as a major power-up, far greater than when they powered up their bases.
2. Goku after transforming in SSGSS says this is a “Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God”
3. We know that SSGSS can't be a major increase from the SSG tie. If it were then Goku would be beating Beerus by now.

The SSB power-up can still be really large and still keep Goku & Vegeta below Beerus while Goku & Vegeta are at SSG level in base. For example, it could give a x1.25-1.5 boost. The Super Saiyan Grade 2 form was said to give a huge power-up, yet it's smaller than x2, so the same can go for SSB as well.

If Goku was already higher than or on par with SSG in his base as you suggest then you have to wonder what was the reason Kaio made that remark when he saw him turning God. What was so surprising about this then, if it wasn't for the power? The blue hair? You say that Kaio wouldn’t be surprised that Goku had reached SSG tier power in base but he would be surprised that Goku went a bit beyond SSG? What is more impressive to you? Going from 1 to 1000 or 1000 to 1200?

Kaio was more surprised with Goku's new form in general rather than specifically his power. Goku had already surpassed the SSG level in his SS form against Beerus, he became stronger through his fight with Beerus.

The narrator says that Goku had even surpassed SSG only when Goku turned blue Super Saiyan. Which means that before turning Super Saiyan he hadn’t surpassed SSG i.e. in his base he is below SSG.

No, the narrator said that it was the form that surpassed SSG, not Goku. This only means that the form is beyond SSG, like SS3 is beyond SS2 for example, it has nothing to do with Goku's power.

DBS Episode 20, min 4-5; FnF Movie, min 13-14. Besides Tagoma couldn’t be Dodoria’s level 14 (or so) years earlier as shown by his flashback being a lower ranked soldier. So he was below Dodoria and now after 14 so years he only managed to reach that level. We are talking about an army obsessed with strength by the way. We know for a fact that the Ginyu force who were the elite force at the time were training. Why the mooks who take orders wouldn’t? It is not as if Tagoma is a newly hired prodigy soldier or a soldier hired after the defeat of Freeza. He was member even back then. Same can be said about Shisami who was very fond of Freeza. Why did he like him so much if he had never served under his command?

We have no idea for how long Shisami was working in Freeza's Army, and we have no idea how much training he had done. So, almost everything about him is speculation. He may had never trained before in his life, or maybe he only trained a little. Then Freeza came back to life, and in order to impress him as the strongest guy in his army, he trained intensely for those 4 months. There is no implication in the movie that they trained together, so you can't force me to accept it.

[Bullza]

Weighted clothing stopped mattering after the Raditz fight. Piccolo can materialize any clothing he wants so the only reason it looks the same as the rest is because he wants it that way. If it was really heavy and factored in any way to his strength, he'd have ditched it.

But he obviously still wears weighted clothing because in the movie he took it off and threw it at several henchmen which made them drop like a rock. It must still make some kind of difference because he loosened up afterward.

If it didn't matter in any way then why wouldn't he just fight Gohan or Frost with it on the same as he did with Tagoma?

When he attacked Tagoma he didn't really know how strong he was beforehand because all he'd done was fire a cheap shot at Gohan.

Base Gohan was supposed to be equal to Tagoma and Piccolo was shown to be equal to base Gohan when he wasn't wearing the weighted clothing.

Base Gohan = Tagoma (Super) = Shisami (movie) = Piccolo (no weights) >> Piccolo (with weights)

[RandomGuy96]

Freeza was on-par with SBG Goku, who would beat the utter shit outta Kid Boo.

As i said in the other thread.1st Form Freeza was above SSj Gohan who is the same league as his Ultimate self.

It's very doubtful they're not above Boo. First Form Freeza is able to blast right through SSJ Gohan who's power is close to where his Boo Saga self was at Ultimate. At the very least, Goku & Vegeta at base are at Bootenks levels of power.

People keep saying ridiculous stuff like this, but the evidence supporting it doesn't exist. At no point is Freeza implied to be anything other than way stronger than SS Gohan, and at no point is SS Gohan implied to be magically as strong as his Ultimate self- on the contrary, the series seemingly goes out of its way to show he's much, much weaker. He can barely turn Super Saiyan, everyone criticizes him for not training, he never uses the Ultimate form that the anime never forgot existed, he has to relearn "the basics", he sees Piccolo as a worthy sparring partner, and he's clearly treated as being inferior to Buu.

Can't be. Goku said that Uub was as powerful as Goku expected him to be.

Why can't that be accurate? Did non-Golden Freeza even do anything besides beat up SS Gohan and Piccolo?

I just can't see the numbers work. Base Godku can't be that weak.

Why? Again past the Beerus fight (where Beerus is either screwing around or he's much stronger than than he is elsewhere, regardless of how strong you think he is later), what does base Goku actually do to prove he's that strong?

Unless you use a much bigger multiplier for Super Saiyan Blue.

I don't see why not.

I think that regarding the "BOG Post-God Base/Super Saiyan" (gee, what a mouthful) there is still something that has been brought up a couple of pages ago that should be of interest: what if, like it has been said, that power-up was only temporary and dispersed over time (let's say a few hours or days) just like the fiery aura?

I mean, the red form was supposed to disappear anyway, leaving the old Super Saiyan God weak enough for other evil Saiyans to kill him, right?
Then you'd have Base Goku and Base Vegeta around the same power, again, who could spar with each other and improve themselves through Whis' training at the same rate or so.

That's what I've gone with.

I agree with this. Along with Vegeta's reaction when Buu gets disqualified, and Vegeta and Goku's condescending attitudes to Gohan and Piccolo, them being Ultimate Gohan-tier or even God-tier doesn't make any sense. Especially if they're god-tier. That means Piccolo is basically as strong as they are now without any fancy Whis training... why are they not freaking the fuck out?

Assuming Speedster's transcription was accurate (where specifically does that happen?), it seems very clear that Buu is far above Piccolo.

I also agree wholeheartedly's with LowRyder's point about the team's reaction to Buu being asleep. If he was already an ant compared to the SUPER MEGA SAIYAN Gohan who's totally Buutenks-tier even though that's never implied anywhere and if anything he appears weaker than his High School arc self, there'd be no reason for them to react like that. Everyone would be immediately confident in Gohan's overwhelming power.

Line of reasoning:
1. Majin Buu is not here, crap; Gohan are you at least training, though?
2. No... b-but hey, I still have my Super Saiyan... possibly!

This in Fukkatsu no F.
If that is not enough for you, we have the Champa saga that further clarifies this:

1. Gohan says after training he is still getting his old power back, that he's still getting the basics done. How in the world does this mean he is stronger than ever? Would you say you are still rusty if you're in your best shape yet?
2. Let's say Goku has seen Gohan fighting and he's now even STRONGER than his Ultimate form (because he trains): Goku still considers Good Buu a more viable alternative (he is fine leaving "Super Ultimate" Gohan out for the much weaker Good Buu while talking with Piccolo about his recruitment) and Gohan has to try to convince him to bring him along? Good Buu is preferred to an Ultimate Gohan stronger than ever because Gohan lacks the fighting spirit? It sounds silly, never mentioning forced.

I wonder if Gohan necessarily has to be stronger than Piccolo in base.

Why did Piccolo attack Tagoma if he almost killed Gohan?

I'm thinking Piccolo was stronger than base Gohan and Tagoma was just screwing around. Partly for that reason, partly because I just remembered that base Goku, who should be stronger than base Gohan, is still supposed to be weaker than Freeza in Super. Furthermore I doubt Gohan would train with Piccolo if Piccolo was dozens of times weaker than him. Goku himself said that Gohan, who was weaker than him by about the same amount in the Android arc, wouldn't be a useful sparring partner unless he massively ballooned in power quickly. He had reason to suspect this would happen, but Gohan had no reason to expect such a thing from Piccolo.

[Analytic]

Question: Is it safe to assume that the gap between Freeza's 1st form and true form is the same in RF as it was in the Freeza arc?

[ZombieVito]

I'm thinking Piccolo was stronger than base Gohan and Tagoma was just screwing around. Partly for that reason, partly because I just remembered that base Goku, who should be stronger than base Gohan, is still supposed to be weaker than Freeza in Super. Furthermore I doubt Gohan would train with Piccolo if Piccolo was dozens of times weaker than him. Goku himself said that Gohan, who was weaker than him by about the same amount in the Android arc, wouldn't be a useful sparring partner unless he massively ballooned in power quickly. He had reason to suspect this would happen, but Gohan had no reason to expect such a thing from Piccolo.

Why? Gohan is still ultimate in BoG.

The only reason I'm doubting Piccolo > base Gohan is that comment he made about Tagoma in episode 22. There's also the fact that he managed to push Tagoma with his attack and everyone expected him to be hurt.

God I can't wait for guides. We need official input on these matters.

[supercat]

Question: Is it safe to assume that the gap between Freeza's 1st form and true form is the same in RF as it was in the Freeza arc?

I guess there's nothing wrong with utilizing the same multipliers his transformations yielded back on Namek. That said, given the fact that Frieza transforms in a descending fashion, it's also safe to assume that the power level associated with each transformation was simply the minimum / maximum output of power for each stage of his metamorphosis.

When all is said and done, I personally don't like to pin a specific set of multipliers on Frieza, as this also makes cramming his RoF incarnations into a power scale that much more challenging.

In any case, I adhere to the following:

First Form Frieza (RoF): Buutenks - Buuhan.
Second Form Frieza (RoF): Stronger than Buuhan but a notch below SSJ Vegetto (Buu arc).
Third Form Frieza (RoF): Possibly a few tiers above SSJ Vegetto; on par with him at the very least.
True Form Frieza (RoF): Strong enough to tangle with a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto (Buu arc).
Golden Frieza: 80 - 85% of Beerus

[LowRyder2005]

Question: Is it safe to assume that the gap between Freeza's 1st form and true form is the same in RF as it was in the Freeza arc?

I personally think it would be convenient and that it could be perfectly possible, but I wouldn't swear to it for a plethora of reasons.
It would, nevertheless, mean that Fourth Form Freeza is most likely around what - I'd say - would be anywhere from Super Buu to Base Vegito's tier indeed (fourth Form Freeza would be 226 times stronger than First Form Freeza > Super Saiyan Gohan > Super Namekian Piccolo after all) like some users are theorizing; this unless you still want to think Gohan is as strong as he was as an Ultimate in FNF... if that was the case and you wanted to follow the proportions, you would end up with... I dunno, perhaps a Freeza who was as strong as Beerus, which would be too much, or a Freeza who is as strong as Super Saiyan God Goku (which on the other hand could be perfectly acceptable if you have "Beyond God >= Super Saiyan God").

I stress I'm going out on a limb here. All in all, as you can see, the real issue isn't with what those multipliers really are because you can, quite paradoxically, go from Super Buu to Super Saiyan God by changing the premises of those he is fighting in this or that form... the real issue is "how strong is Freeza in base form"? That is the element that brings the most drastic changes.

In that regard, I've been thinking on something else, though: proportions aside, Freeza talks about getting to 1,300,000 in base form after some training as quite the achievement and we've ignored it so far by labeling it as PIS.
What if he basically ended up at a billion or so in the end (in Fourth Form, I mean), without taking his Ultimate Evolution in account? If we do give weight to his account of things he could be, by all means and accounts, just Cell tier and weaker than Good Buu in final form - surpassing Buu only thanks to his Evolution, which in turn gave him the confidence to beat Goku, since Goku > Buu.

I mean, we've always thought he was just tomfoolery on Freeza's (or the writers') part, but could it be something more legitimate?

[RandomGuy96]

Question: Is it safe to assume that the gap between Freeza's 1st form and true form is the same in RF as it was in the Freeza arc?

I personally think it would be convenient and that it could be perfectly possible, but I wouldn't swear to it for a plethora of reasons.
It would, nevertheless, mean that Fourth Form Freeza is most likely around what - I'd say - would be anywhere from Super Buu to Base Vegito's tier indeed (fourth Form Freeza would be 226 times stronger than First Form Freeza > Super Saiyan Gohan > Super Namekian Piccolo after all) like some users are theorizing; this unless you still want to think Gohan is as strong as he was as an Ultimate in FNF... if that was the case and you wanted to follow the proportions, you would end up with... I dunno, perhaps a Freeza who was as strong as Beerus, which would be too much, or a Freeza who is as strong as Super Saiyan God Goku (which on the other hand could be perfectly acceptable if you have "Beyond God >= Super Saiyan God").

I stress I'm going out on a limb here. All in all, as you can see, the real issue isn't with what those multipliers really are because you can, quite paradoxically, go from Super Buu to Super Saiyan God by changing the premises of those he is fighting in this or that form... the real issue is "how strong is Freeza in base form"? That is the element that brings the most drastic changes.

In that regard, I've been thinking on something else, though: proportions aside, Freeza talks about getting to 1,300,000 in base form after some training as quite the achievement and we've ignored it so far by labeling it as PIS.
What if he basically ended up at a billion or so in the end (in Fourth Form, I mean), without taking his Ultimate Evolution in account? If we do give weight to his account of things he could be, by all means and accounts, just Cell tier and weaker than Good Buu in final form - surpassing Buu only thanks to his Evolution, which in turn gave him the confidence to beat Goku, since Goku > Buu.

I mean, we've always thought he was just tomfoolery on Freeza's (or the writers') part, but could it be something more legitimate?

Can't be. 1st form Freeza was strong enough to easily beat up SS Gohan and Piccolo, his power level was already in the billions. 1.3 million can't really work.

BTW, I don't buy into the idea that Freeza's final form in the faff arc is x226 stronger than his 1st form either. His forms were arbitrary power limiters in the first place, they can be however strong he wants to make them.

I'm thinking Piccolo was stronger than base Gohan and Tagoma was just screwing around. Partly for that reason, partly because I just remembered that base Goku, who should be stronger than base Gohan, is still supposed to be weaker than Freeza in Super. Furthermore I doubt Gohan would train with Piccolo if Piccolo was dozens of times weaker than him. Goku himself said that Gohan, who was weaker than him by about the same amount in the Android arc, wouldn't be a useful sparring partner unless he massively ballooned in power quickly. He had reason to suspect this would happen, but Gohan had no reason to expect such a thing from Piccolo.

Why? Gohan is still ultimate in BoG.

He's not Ultimate in ROF, so that would imply base Gohan >>>> base Goku (BOG). I can't see that being the case.

[Speedster]

The movies are relevant to Dragon Ball Super, so I can talk about them here

It is a shame really when someone actively wants to stay off-topic... Why then, don't you also talk about Freeza aiming to reach a power level of 1.3 million in the movie? Or about SSGSS Goku getting fatally wounded by Sorbet's ring?

The SSB power-up can still be really large and still keep Goku & Vegeta below Beerus while Goku & Vegeta are at SSG level in base. For example, it could give a x1.25-1.5 boost. The Super Saiyan Grade 2 form was said to give a huge power-up, yet it's smaller than x2, so the same can go for SSB as well.

You forget there, that the base back then was increased considerably so the increase was mostly attributed to that and not so much to the new form itself being a larger multiplier over the previous one.

Kaio was more surprised with Goku's new form in general rather than specifically his power. Goku had already surpassed the SSG level in his SS form against Beerus, he became stronger through his fight with Beerus.

Again what was that, that made it impressive if not its power? The blue hair? The cool aura? Then why did he refer to training? You do realise that it is like being more impressed by Vegeta going from regular SSJ1 to Super Vegeta against Cell instead of Mr Satan surpassing final form Freeza…

No, the narrator said that it was the form that surpassed SSG, not Goku. This only means that the form is beyond SSG, like SS3 is beyond SS2 for example, it has nothing to do with Goku's power.

So what? It is like you have multipliers A (for transformation) and B (for base increase through training) and you want a total product of A*B<1.3 (6*1.3=7.56 which is about right). If, as you support, Goku was already SSG tier in his base since BoGs, then your two multipliers would be like A=1.2 and B=1.05. With your notion of Godly base=SSG you then have:

SSG/Godly base (BoGs)=10,000*(former regular base)
SSGSS=1.2*Godly base=12,000*(former regular base)

In other words, if we apply your logic, since the base of Goku in FnF only changed by 5%, comparing the two forms (SSG and SSGSS) is equivalent to comparing Goku's increase in power between the two forms. Therefore your previous answer doesn't object to anything I said before.

We have no idea for how long Shisami was working in Freeza's Army, and we have no idea how much training he had done. So, almost everything about him is speculation. He may had never trained before in his life, or maybe he only trained a little. Then Freeza came back to life, and in order to impress him as the strongest guy in his army, he trained intensely for those 4 months. There is no implication in the movie that they trained together, so you can't force me to accept it.

You are also free to believe that the moon is made of green cheese, that Elvis is still alive, etc. You are entitled to believe whatever you want. No one is forcing you to accept anything.