"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[FortuneSSJ]

DBS Manga Volume 9 Cover:

Spoiler:

Besides the classic Toyotaro's anatomy problems, Jiren's aura having a shit color bothers me a lot.

[Kanassa]

DBS Manga Volume 9 Cover:

Spoiler:

So, is this some sort of deodorant commercial? Clearly, Jiren is stinking up a storm while Goku is protected by the minty freshness of Ultra Instinct!

[emperior]

DBS Manga Volume 9 Cover:

Spoiler:

This doesn’t look good. Goku’s arms have messed up anatomy (especially obvious with his left arm which has the elbow showing, even though from that angle it would be impossible to see it) and his chest is too small. But I like his aura, the face and the hair.
Jiren looks bad because of the aura which makes it look like he stinks. Toyotaro should have gone for a fierce red instead of trying to make it look like fire and failing.

[TKA]

I really like Jiren's pose and the angle the "camera" is shooting this scene from. The auras I have no problem with. They hearken back to the anime, while still being visibly different.

Muscles are fucking hard, dude. Toyotaro's biggest anatomy problems are usually mangling the shoulders and necks for the poses. Look at the gang down there, buncha hunchbacks.

The hunchback syndrome was actually the thing that stood out to me most. It's especially pronounced with Tenshinhan.

Toriyama also doesn't think very highly of his own ability to draw muscles. Or at least he did so during the manga's original run. Personally, I see no issue with how he drew them. They were stylized and cartoonish, which fit the style of the series.

[Lionel]

DBS Manga Volume 9 Cover:

Spoiler:

So, is this some sort of deodorant commercial? Clearly, Jiren is stinking up a storm while Goku is protected by the minty freshness of Ultra Instinct!

This is probably the first time Toriyama actually made me laugh and I doubt it was intentional. Good assessment of the cover there. Is everyone below reacting to the fight or Jiren's odour? Who can say!

[supersaiyanZero]

Finally, some goddamn tension and weight to an arc/fight.

You mean it wasn't enough when losing the tournament meant your entire Universe being erased? Fighting for the existence of your universe wasn't enough tension for you, or what?

You can have whatever imaginary stakes you'd like, but if you don't execute dramatized tension well it's going to fall flat regardless. You seem to not understand this concept.

[Shaddy]

I don't see anything that makes Moro somehow more threatening or the stakes any higher than before, especially given that we already know what his power is, he's already fallen into basic DB villain trappings, has no personality to speak of, and hasn't accomplished anything particularly impressive yet. Toyo's presentation is really not that different from his version of the Tournament, so I'm not sure what exactly makes you say that other than personal preference. I guess that Namekian that he killed was one of the more gruesome things in this era of the manga, but it's not like anyone really cared about or took that guy seriously as a potential fighter anyway.

Gotta love how you always go right for the jugular and insinuate that anyone who doesn't agree with you is somehow stupid or lacking a piece of critical understanding, though. Really not an attractive personality trait to have.

[PFM18]

Finally, some goddamn tension and weight to an arc/fight.

You mean it wasn't enough when losing the tournament meant your entire Universe being erased? Fighting for the existence of your universe wasn't enough tension for you, or what?

You can have whatever imaginary stakes you'd like, but if you don't execute dramatized tension well it's going to fall flat regardless. You seem to not understand this concept.

Ah, right, everything being at risk qualifies as "imaginary stakes."

[supersaiyanZero]

I don't see anything that makes Moro somehow more threatening or the stakes any higher than before, especially given that we already know what his power is, he's already fallen into basic DB villain trappings, has no personality to speak of, and hasn't accomplished anything particularly impressive yet. Toyo's presentation is really not that different from his version of the Tournament, so I'm not sure what exactly makes you say that other than personal preference. I guess that Namekian that he killed was one of the more gruesome things in this era of the manga, but it's not like anyone really cared about or took that guy seriously as a potential fighter anyway.

Gotta love how you always go right for the jugular and insinuate that anyone who doesn't agree with you is somehow stupid or lacking a piece of critical understanding, though. Really not an attractive personality trait to have.

I might not be so snappy if PFM18 hasn't hunted down every post I had about Super like he is Toei's lawyer. And in response to both of you, the simplest way I can put it is that there just seems to be a sense of danger in the fight with Moro that hasn't been present in the entire series of Modern Dragonball. It's a bunch of things, but it can mostly be attributed to the anime's lack of atmosphere and the character's complete ignorance of the stakes. I believe the closest we've come is the Goku Black arc, which I still think is another one of the series' biggest missed opportunities. (The manga did provide a more thrilling climax than the anime at least) By "imaginary", I meant you can have WHATEVER "stakes" you want, if you do not execute the dramatic conflict well it will always fall flat. Comic Books, movies, and books are littered with examples of"high universal stakes" that have fallen on their face because they were done rather poorly. Super's TOP was no exception.

[batistabus]

According to a Bing translation of a French tweet translating Toyotaro's twitter post, tankobon 9 will have additional pages that Toyo didn't have time to include during serialization.

https://twitter.com/freza_sama/status/1 ... 51266?s=21

[Shaddy]

I don't see much difference, is all. I'm sympathetic to concerns about Goku's demeanor not feeling tonally relevant, but the characters take the threats as seriously now as they ever have...which is to say that it's inconsistent. Sometimes a bad guy is bad and just needs to go down, other times we're allowed to have fun with him arbitrarily until it becomes a bigger problem than it should've otherwise. It's a problem greater than Super itself, though I wouldn't blame you with associating it more with Goku's generally goofier demeanor.

With the stakes, again, there isn't really a big difference. Dragon Ball has had problems raising the stakes ever since it was possible to just reverse death, and it only got worse with adding more sets of Dragon Balls, having Goku able to teleport wherever he wants at any time, and constantly having to invent new methods of power because the villains are typically just a vague approximation of "stronger". I can't rightly tell any difference between the stakes with Moro and the stakes in the ToP. It's long since stopped being an actual consequence and is mostly just a motivator. An unexpected large-scale failure for the heroes would be a breath of fresh air in this series, to be honest.

As for atmosphere...I dunno what to tell you, I haven't felt that either the manga or the anime have been great at that. The manga's composition issues and often lacking personality in Toyo's art are bad enough to wear on that a bit, but at the very least I felt the huge change in direction when Nagamine and Nakamura took over, even if it wasn't necessarily what you wanted out of it.

[Miracles]

Moro's threat status is low because we haven't received his intentions once he regains his powers. We need more spiritual development from him.

[louisascommie]

Maybe they should have moro specifically want to take out beerus so protecting the kias becomes a big focus idk something unique

[Shaddy]

Moro's threat status is low because we haven't received his intentions once he regains his powers. We need more spiritual development from him.

Well, then he should have made a striking first impression to compensate. I still don't think whatever his powers end up being are going to be that substantially interesting anyway, just based on what this arc and the manga as a whole has put out.

[Miracles]

Moro's threat status is low because we haven't received his intentions once he regains his powers. We need more spiritual development from him.

Well, then he should have made a striking first impression to compensate.

Agreed. Developments have been slow.

[PFM18]

I don't see anything that makes Moro somehow more threatening or the stakes any higher than before, especially given that we already know what his power is, he's already fallen into basic DB villain trappings, has no personality to speak of, and hasn't accomplished anything particularly impressive yet. Toyo's presentation is really not that different from his version of the Tournament, so I'm not sure what exactly makes you say that other than personal preference. I guess that Namekian that he killed was one of the more gruesome things in this era of the manga, but it's not like anyone really cared about or took that guy seriously as a potential fighter anyway.

Gotta love how you always go right for the jugular and insinuate that anyone who doesn't agree with you is somehow stupid or lacking a piece of critical understanding, though. Really not an attractive personality trait to have.

I might not be so snappy if PFM18 hasn't hunted down every post I had about Super like he is Toei's lawyer. And in response to both of you, the simplest way I can put it is that there just seems to be a sense of danger in the fight with Moro that hasn't been present in the entire series of Modern Dragonball. It's a bunch of things, but it can mostly be attributed to the anime's lack of atmosphere and the character's complete ignorance of the stakes. I believe the closest we've come is the Goku Black arc, which I still think is another one of the series' biggest missed opportunities. (The manga did provide a more thrilling climax than the anime at least) By "imaginary", I meant you can have WHATEVER "stakes" you want, if you do not execute the dramatic conflict well it will always fall flat. Comic Books, movies, and books are littered with examples of"high universal stakes" that have fallen on their face because they were done rather poorly. Super's TOP was no exception.

So it's my fault that you have this apparent tendency to convey this extremely condescending demeanor?You have claimed more or less that your opinion is an objective fact on several occasions now and quite literally have said that anyone who disagrees does not understand art. That doesn't really have much to do with me commenting on your Super posts.

[supersaiyanZero]

I don't see anything that makes Moro somehow more threatening or the stakes any higher than before, especially given that we already know what his power is, he's already fallen into basic DB villain trappings, has no personality to speak of, and hasn't accomplished anything particularly impressive yet. Toyo's presentation is really not that different from his version of the Tournament, so I'm not sure what exactly makes you say that other than personal preference. I guess that Namekian that he killed was one of the more gruesome things in this era of the manga, but it's not like anyone really cared about or took that guy seriously as a potential fighter anyway.

Gotta love how you always go right for the jugular and insinuate that anyone who doesn't agree with you is somehow stupid or lacking a piece of critical understanding, though. Really not an attractive personality trait to have.

I might not be so snappy if PFM18 hasn't hunted down every post I had about Super like he is Toei's lawyer. And in response to both of you, the simplest way I can put it is that there just seems to be a sense of danger in the fight with Moro that hasn't been present in the entire series of Modern Dragonball. It's a bunch of things, but it can mostly be attributed to the anime's lack of atmosphere and the character's complete ignorance of the stakes. I believe the closest we've come is the Goku Black arc, which I still think is another one of the series' biggest missed opportunities. (The manga did provide a more thrilling climax than the anime at least) By "imaginary", I meant you can have WHATEVER "stakes" you want, if you do not execute the dramatic conflict well it will always fall flat. Comic Books, movies, and books are littered with examples of"high universal stakes" that have fallen on their face because they were done rather poorly. Super's TOP was no exception.

So it's my fault that you have this apparent tendency to convey this extremely condescending demeanor?You have claimed more or less that your opinion is an objective fact on several occasions now and quite literally have said that anyone who disagrees does not understand art. That doesn't really have much to do with me commenting on your Super posts.

It's quite the opposite - any criticisms in terms of narrative structure or the overall end product of various teams working together being conclusively mediocre are dismissed because I don't seem to understand "art". "It's all subjective!" "You can't criticize art!" etc.

The whole point of art is the craftsmanship involved. That is the artistry. Art is not something you shoddly cobble together and throw out into the world of consumers free from any criticism because art is "subjective". Super is not a Pollock painting, it is not an exercise in the abstract - it is a narrative following a plot structure. It is not groundbreaking, it is not breaking the rules in order to transcend the genre. It is doing quite the opposite actually, using many tropes and plot points from it's collective genre in order to build a story and it does so poorly. There are established rules within storytelling that serve a function, and of course they can be broken but that requires a mastery over the tools and skills involved over the craft which are nowhere near present in the series. That does not mean complex, that does not mean overly deep or heavy. Sometimes it can be pretty damn simple.

But to just throw away any sort of criticism because of some wallflower argument that "all art is subjective" is such a insanely ignorant view on what art actually encompasses. If you can't see how Super is incredibly half assed, rushed, and poorly constructed then you are laying the foundation for mediocrity from studios who are all too willing to give you the most uninspired garbage stamped with your favorite franchise tag and sell it for lucrative profits.

Enjoyment however, is subjective. You can enjoy it, fine. I have my own guilty pleasures, but I would never dare say they are good by any means.

[PFM18]

any criticisms in terms of narrative structure or the overall end product of various teams working together being conclusively mediocre are dismissed because I don't seem to understand "art". "It's all subjective!" "You can't criticize art!" etc.

But to just throw away any sort of criticism because of some wallflower argument that "all art is subjective" is such a insanely ignorant view on what art actually encompasses.

Nobody is saying that. Nobody has ever said that. Nobody is "tossing away criticism" or telling you that you can't criticize it. That's either intellectually disingenuous or you are completely misinterpreting what you are responding to.

You can criticize it all that you want, but you're just blatantly wrong if you claim that there's any sort of objective fact regarding it's quality. Any sort of assertion of quality is subject to your criteria as far as what makes the work good, how you interpret the work, etc etc. It is inherently influenced by the individual and how they assess their experience with the work, there's absolutely no definitive facts regarding the quality or really anything objective regarding the quality. Any assessment of quality is subjective in nature. You claiming that your opinion is somehow an objective truth is frankly you just being delusional.

[Miracles]

I might not be so snappy if PFM18 hasn't hunted down every post I had about Super like he is Toei's lawyer. And in response to both of you, the simplest way I can put it is that there just seems to be a sense of danger in the fight with Moro that hasn't been present in the entire series of Modern Dragonball. It's a bunch of things, but it can mostly be attributed to the anime's lack of atmosphere and the character's complete ignorance of the stakes. I believe the closest we've come is the Goku Black arc, which I still think is another one of the series' biggest missed opportunities. (The manga did provide a more thrilling climax than the anime at least) By "imaginary", I meant you can have WHATEVER "stakes" you want, if you do not execute the dramatic conflict well it will always fall flat. Comic Books, movies, and books are littered with examples of"high universal stakes" that have fallen on their face because they were done rather poorly. Super's TOP was no exception.

So it's my fault that you have this apparent tendency to convey this extremely condescending demeanor?You have claimed more or less that your opinion is an objective fact on several occasions now and quite literally have said that anyone who disagrees does not understand art. That doesn't really have much to do with me commenting on your Super posts.

It's quite the opposite - any criticisms in terms of narrative structure or the overall end product of various teams working together being conclusively mediocre are dismissed because I don't seem to understand "art". "It's all subjective!" "You can't criticize art!" etc.

The whole point of art is the craftsmanship involved. That is the artistry. Art is not something you shoddly cobble together and throw out into the world of consumers free from any criticism because art is "subjective". Super is not a Pollock painting, it is not an exercise in the abstract - it is a narrative following a plot structure. It is not groundbreaking, it is not breaking the rules in order to transcend the genre. It is doing quite the opposite actually, using many tropes and plot points from it's collective genre in order to build a story and it does so poorly. There are established rules within storytelling that serve a function, and of course they can be broken but that requires a mastery over the tools and skills involved over the craft which are nowhere near present in the series. That does not mean complex, that does not mean overly deep or heavy. Sometimes it can be pretty damn simple.

But to just throw away any sort of criticism because of some wallflower argument that "all art is subjective" is such a insanely ignorant view on what art actually encompasses. If you can't see how Super is incredibly half assed, rushed, and poorly constructed then you are laying the foundation for mediocrity from studios who are all too willing to give you the most uninspired garbage stamped with your favorite franchise tag and sell it for lucrative profits.

Enjoyment however, is subjective. You can enjoy it, fine. I have my own guilty pleasures, but I would never dare say they are good by any means.

I have to agree. Especially with the bold. I always thought Super was half of what it's predecessor was.

any criticisms in terms of narrative structure or the overall end product of various teams working together being conclusively mediocre are dismissed because I don't seem to understand "art". "It's all subjective!" "You can't criticize art!" etc.

But to just throw away any sort of criticism because of some wallflower argument that "all art is subjective" is such a insanely ignorant view on what art actually encompasses.

Nobody is saying that. Nobody has ever said that. Nobody is "tossing away criticism" or telling you that you can't criticize it. That's either intellectually disingenuous or you are completely misinterpreting what you are responding to.

You can criticize it all that you want, but you're just blatantly wrong if you claim that there's any sort of objective fact regarding it's quality. Any sort of assertion of quality is subject to your criteria as far as what makes the work good, how you interpret the work, etc etc. It is inherently influenced by the individual and how they assess their experience with the work, there's absolutely no definitive facts regarding the quality or really anything objective regarding the quality. Any assessment of quality is subjective in nature. You claiming that your opinion is somehow an objective truth is frankly you just being delusional.

Do you think Toriyama criticizing the DBS anime's quality of art is subjective?

[Shaddy]

Do you think Toriyama criticizing the DBS anime's quality of art is subjective?

Toriyama is just as much a human being subject to different standards and ideas of quality as anyone else, so it would actually be factually wrong to say it isn't subjective. The debate about whether his own opinions on his own franchise are even worth listening to is also a long-dead and tiresome discussion. If a franchise's creators got to decide what people thought was good about it, nothing would ever be considered bad.

This is the same flawed principle that begets broken statements like this:

If you can't see how Super is incredibly half assed, rushed, and poorly constructed then you are laying the foundation for mediocrity from studios who are all too willing to give you the most uninspired garbage stamped with your favorite franchise tag and sell it for lucrative profits.

The only reason Super being a "half assed, rushed, and poorly constructed" show is a given is because he believes it to be so with such ferocity that he can't imagine others wouldn't view it as such. It wouldn't be wrong to say that supporting Super would make it more likely for other things like Super to emerge, but the idea that it being bad is inherent to them is based solely on one's own opinion. Well, that or the idea that majority rules when discussing these things, but of course that always seems to be conditional to when it can inform that person's argument and never at any other times.

Case in point: if you tell me Tommy Wiseau is the world's greatest actor, I'm gonna disagree with you. Most people would disagree with you, given that he's famous for creating and starring in one of the worst movies ever made. But there's no authority on who gets to decide you're wrong for saying it. There's no rules to this shit. The idea that The Room is one of the worst movies ever isn't an objective, undeniable fact handed down from God, it's just what enough people believed that it became common to know and think about it. But still, someone with very different taste from the majority could genuinely believe it to be a heartfelt drama movie about an ordinary banker being cheated on by his fiancee, and you can't actually tell them they're wrong for any other reason than "you and some other people disagree". A far greater amount of people would pull death of the author on you and claim that it's ironic enjoyment as a comedy is enough that they can claim it to be a good comedy film by removing the context around it, and you can't say they're wrong either. I would certainly say it's a fucking funny movie.

And this is a good thing. Art is constantly shifting, rewriting, breaking and challenging rules people take for granted to evolve, and everyone is always going to think one thing does this successfully while others don't. Saying Super is "not breaking the rules in order to transcend the genre" is still a subjective opinion, supported only by this user's subjective perception that they got from the show. And that's not a wrong perspective. I certainly don't find a ton that's new or amazing about Super, it made a lot of decisions I thought were really fucking stupid, but "I thought" is the key point there. That a thing can be disagreed upon is proof that either A. It's not absolute or B. Someone has an ulterior motive in the discussion. That's why gravity is something everyone who isn't part of a conspiracy theory believes in, but Twilight still had a massive fanbase. It wasn't because those people had horrible taste -- because their taste being horrible is, in itself, an opinion. There's layers to this shit and I constantly see people (well...person) steamrolling them with a false idea of "I'm right I'm just nobody else can deny". It's holding so much weight in one's own idea of a "good show" that it stops registering as the idea and becomes the absolute. Either due to narcissism, a massive lack of self-awareness or both.