Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

Anyone who uses common sense to deduce Gotenks' strength is guilty if ignoring what's stated. You may as well ignore the Daizenshuu all together.

The "drags to the limits" thing is exactly the reason I think SS3 might have a varying multiplier. Goku's pictured there, not Gotenks, and like I said gag implications have Gotenks having screwed up multipliers. His 'full potential' at the moment can just be less than four hundred times his base strength.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Anyone who uses common sense to deduce Gotenks' strength is guilty if ignoring what's stated. You may as well ignore the Daizenshuu all together.

Why would I do that? If you ignore what this says about multipliers you might as well ignore it altogether since SSJ3 is stated, clear as day, to be 4x SSJ2. If SSJ3 does have a varying multiplier, Gotenks would have a bigger one since half breeds have more potential.

[RandomGuy96]

And pre-ROSAT Gotenks is stated, clear as day, to be weaker than Vegeta, only surpassing him after the ROSAT. Gohan is also stated, clear as day, to be a SS2 against Dabura. Tien is also stated, clear as day, to have fought Android 19.

Potential doesn't really work like that. A half breed will not automatically have more potential than a full breed just on the grounds of being a half breed. It's like the Super God Water power up, which was supposed to draw out hidden power but obviously didn't. In general, Goten and Trunks have more potential than Goku. At the moment, their hidden power is inferior as a result of being children.

[TheMightyOzaru]

And pre-ROSAT Gotenks is stated, clear as day, to be weaker than Vegeta, only surpassing him after the ROSAT. Gohan is also stated, clear as day, to be a SS2 against Dabura. Tenshinhan is also stated, clear as day, to have fought Android 19.

No it says Vegeta and everyone else. I view Vegeta as a front to hide the fact that he surpassed SSJ3 Goku after the ROSAT. These are also all from the Daizenshuu 7, which seemingly have a bunch of typos or errors. You shouldn't disregard something unless it's a blatant contradiction.

[RandomGuy96]

It still outright SAYS he's weaker than Vegeta pre-ROSAT. That's not an outright contradiction, it just requires you to believe no one in the manga has two brain cells to rub together. Interpret it how you want, but it flat out says he didn't surpass Vegeta until after the ROSAT- in fact it implies that he was a LOT weaker than Vegeta pre-ROSAT. And Dabura being a SS2 vs Dabura is not a contradiction and not a typo.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Not really, it says he surpassed Vegeta and the others. That doesn't inherently mean he was weaker than Vegeta prior to the ROSAT. Oh, I would say it's a blatant contradiction. Before all the gag crap, everyone was pretty impressed by Gotenks despite having sensed Vegeta's full power. Piccolo directly said Vegeta was probably stronger than Gohan from the Cell games, he has an idea of how strong he is. He also didn't put into question Goku's statement about Gotenks' strength. Gohan being a SSJ2 is contradicted by how he's drawn. If you choose not to believe a fact, that's your problem.

[RandomGuy96]

...do you know the meaning of the word 'surpassed'?

Before all the gag crap, everyone was pretty impressed by Gotenks despite having sensed Vegeta's full power. Piccolo directly said Vegeta was probably stronger than Gohan from the Cell games, he has an idea of how strong he is. He also didn't put into question Goku's statement about Gotenks' strength.

If you want to know how it's NOT a contradiction per se, consult Kaboom and Saiga. They actually follow this line.

Did not contradict =/= actually said. Being impressed =/= knowing it will be enough. Standing ki =/= fighting ki.

And if Piccolo is the most reliable ki sensor in the Buu Saga, then I guess base Gotenks > SS3 Goku, right?

[TheMightyOzaru]

...do you know the meaning of the word 'surpassed'?

I do, and this statement doesn't inherently mean he was weaker than Vegeta prior to the ROSAT. It's a front designed to make Gotenks seem weaker than he really is.

[RandomGuy96]

If he were stronger than Vegeta prior to the ROSAT, then he wouldn't have surpassed him after leveling up in the ROSAT. He never would've been able to surpass Vegeta because he never would've been weaker than him in the first place. At best, he was equal. This is basic sentence structure. I mean, seriously?

Yeah, it is trying to make him seem weaker than he really is. It's saying Vegeta > Gotenks (pre).

[TheMightyOzaru]

It says surpassed Vegeta and the others. Do you know what a front means?

[RandomGuy96]

Vegeta is still one of the people he surpassed. The very fact that it says "he surpassed Vegeta" means that he was weaker, otherwise he couldn't have surpassed him.

[TheMightyOzaru]

If it's front, it doesn't inherently mean that he was weaker prior. Even assuming that was what the Daizenshuu is trying to convey, it's a blatant contradiction and therefore wrong.

[RandomGuy96]

...it says he SURPASSED VEGETA after TRAINING. Let's go grab the Merriam Webster definition here:

Definition of SURPASS

1
: to become better, greater, or stronger than : exceed <surpassed her rivals> <surpassed all expectations>
2
: to go beyond : overstep
3
: to transcend the reach, capacity, or powers of

To surpass is to BECOME greater than. You cannot SURPASS something you were already superior to, as you were GREATER THAN it prior to becoming greater yourself. That is literally the meaning of the word "surpass".

[TheMightyOzaru]

I love how you keep ignoring what I say. DO YOU KNOW WHAT A FRONT MEANS?

[RandomGuy96]

Yes. What does it have to do with this? It does not change the basic definition of the word "surpass". It saying that they surpassed Vegeta means they were inferior to Vegeta before, as well as anyone who might be included in "the others".

And SS Gotenks < SS2 Vegeta isn't a contradiction. It's stupid and makes no sense, but it's not a contradiction, as no one ever sensed him and said he was stronger than Vegeta.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Because. If we were to take into account everyone else and break that sentence down, wouldn't that mean he surpassed Videl or Krillin too? Was he weaker to Krillin prior to the ROSAT as well? They used Vegeta as a front to disguise the fact that he had also surpassed Goku.

[Kamiccolo9]

Can we just ignore it? Whether it's a front, or just a stupid, incorrect statement, does it really matter? I know I just disregard it.

[RandomGuy96]

Because. If we were to take into account everyone else and break that sentence down, wouldn't that mean he surpassed Videl or Krillin too? Was he weaker to Krillin prior to the ROSAT as well? They used Vegeta as a front to disguise the fact that he had also surpassed Goku.

We have no idea who "the others" are. It could just refer to "the other strong people". Then those others could be some combination of Goku, post-Zeta Gohan, and Buu. It including Vegeta in the list of people Gotenks surpassed means that he was weaker prior. That's just the meaning of the word.

Can we just ignore it? Whether it's a front, or just a stupid, incorrect statement, does it really matter? I know I just disregard it.

I'm just using it as part of my point of why I'm disregarding what the guides say on Gotenks. And I'm saying that if Ozaru disregards it, he's just as guilty as the people he accuses of not following official material.

[Mjb1985]

I think the guidebook makes a clear situation unclear. I just go with Ssj Gotenks Pre being more or less on Ssj3 Goku's level, which is a level that can defeat Fat Buu and Ssj Gotenks Post at a significantly higher level than that.

[TheMightyOzaru]

It says others. Who else would the "others" be? The Zetto Senshii is clearly the implied answer.