MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 6/8/26!)

[Scsigs]

The Vegeta dissections really drive home the points I was making about his character in another thread.
Vegeta's redemption arc is a good idea on paper, but a huge problem is that it never goes anywhere and the character is stuck in a pattern of ruining everything up instead of helping, even after he's already redeemed, he's still an insecure piece of unhelpful shit. It's hard to take his "redemption" seriously when him NOT betraying his team is the exception, not the rule.

See, this is only really when you take the post-Z stuff in Super into account. Toriyama never really seemed satisfied with Vegeta fully growing passed his pettiness & rivalry with Goku for some reason. He changed the dialogue in some of the later editions of the manga's ending for some reason to have Vegeta vowing to get better than Goku. Admittedly, he might've meant that to come off as Vegeta's motivation to continue training, but that could've maybe been made more explicitly. Then, in the Super materials, he tended to write Vegeta's want to train as him getting better than Goku rather than keeping in step with him, which is where Vegeta really should've been by then, which the Super anime staff then took to be how Vegeta should be written which they then used to flanderize him to regress him to more of how he was in Z before his character development in Buu. Toyotaro seemed to see how people were reacting to this & changed it to a better way, iirc. Hell, even GT did better in this department with Vegeta where he's just a dad at the beginning of the series, then he's the one to suggest Fusion later on, showing that he's over that dumb shit from Buu.

In terms of his redemption itself, I feel of 2 minds about it.
Now, Mistare's take that Vegeta's a big baby that had a bad crashout & that lead to his midlife crisis & not liking him for that is valid. That's how Toriyama wanted Vegeta to come off; that Vegeta was being a big baby about his lot in life. Vegeta makes it explicitly clear in the dialogue when monologuing to Goku about why he let Babidi control him. He actually began to love his life on Earth because he had settled down after 20+ years of space fairing & shit, as well as just not focusing on being the best, but maintaining what he had built up already because he had no one to directly compete with. He was also raising his son with some of his values & having him train with him. However, the more macho side of Vegeta that he was raised with & fueled his actions for most of his life didn't like that & created an internal conflict that came to the surface when Goku came back. It especially was bad because he didn't feel any meaningful change in his power when embracing some of the things Goku did years before that provided him with so many meaningful rewards in regards to his power level because he didn't get the fundamentals of why that mattered to him. However, he later realized that what he did wasn't the way to get what he wanted either & it only brought a worse trajectory for everyone else, so he blows himself up to try to clean up his mess for everyone he cares about.
It's a character arc & progression that makes a lot of sense for Vegeta's character & I think a lot of people connect with it because it's positive & finally gets Vegeta to get over himself to become a more well-rounded person.

However, it's undermined because of Super & later editions of the manga retconning the ending for no reason, but even within the later parts of the Buu Arc when Vegeta's brought back still mostly acting like his old self again (fine, as you can't expect him to be completely different, as that would be out of character), as well as Buu not permanently dying from his sacrifice. Immediately after he did that, Buu reformed because pieces of him survived, which undermines his sacrifice, & he & Goku inconsistently act like dumbasses at points just so the plot can continue to happen (which the arc struggles with, unfortunately). I think what would've been better is maybe a small piece of Buu survived, but in a very weakened state, & Babidi spent a bit of time using his magic to restore Buu, so that the arc can have a bit of a breather, Vegeta's sacrifice wasn't entirely in vain, & we have a natural progression point that feels a bit more organic to the situation. But, that's just me spitballing.
If the execution of Vegeta's redemption doesn't work for you because of how he was as a character up until that point, I don't know if I can convince you, but at least I can explain it. His redemption for the most part works for me, I just wish Toriyama was more consistent in how he portrayed Vegeta after it, as he unfortunately undermined his own writing there.

[Kenji]

Here's the thing:
Vegeta's redemption is functional, I can see the character became a better person by the end of Boo.
However, it's not executed well, because:

- Vegeta is not called out for his self-destructive behavior.
- Even in Boo, he's still acting self-destructive (not counting his literal self-destruction) by doing dumb shit like refusing to wear the Potara, breaking the Potara twice, insisting the "Saiyan Way" is putting the universe at risk for a good fight, etc.

These behaviors are reinforced by the story not only in Boo itself, but also in Super with the entire Tournament of Power arc, which Toriyama laid the foundation for. Turns out Goku, Vegeta, Freeza and everybody else can act as self-destructive as they way, because ThEyR NoT HeroEs and their self-destructive behavior is actually a good thing, because it brings unintentional good consequences

Now, I understand Dragon Ball is not therapy, and characters don't necessarily need to be 100% good people to convey a message, but I thought Goku and Vegeta being reckless pieces of shit because of Saiyan blood was 100% defined as a bad thing by the end of Cell and with Vegeta's sacrifice in Boo? But now we have Boo & Super doubling down on it being a good thing again.

As a woman, this all reads to me as Toriyama wanting to have his cake of machismo and eat it too. "Hey, Goku & Vegeta can be total macho assholes who neglect their families and responsibilities for fun, and are completely unable to have empathy for the people they hurt as collateral damage, but they're good guys deep down." And I'm like... Yeah, no. Sorry. I'm pretty sure they're just assholes who should've stayed dead, period.

I don't think Vegeta, or even Goku for that matter, are characters worth sending that message to your audience of impressionable little boys. I much preferred when Goku and Vegeta realized Saiyan blood made them assholes and chose to repair the damage they caused by staying dead for the sake of everyone else. My problem comes from the story undoing all of that and doubling down on everything that led to these points in the first place.

[Kid Buu]

Gaffer Tape, do you plan on reviewing the Yamcha spinoff comic? Can't seem to find a review of it by you on here.

[Yuli Ban]

Commenting on the first GT video, and reposting it here:

The missed opportunity with Kid Goku (GT-style) is that they could have had their cake and eat it too
This is the thing I've hated about GT the most, because there are literally multiple scenes where Son Goku transforms into Super Saiyan... and then depowers, during the Hunt for the (Black Star) Dragon Balls hunt.
Why?
For what reason?
Because the ADOBENCHA plot would be resolved if Goku just went Super Saiyan and beat up the current problem or used the GT Kamehameha.
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
That's like if Indiana Jones had Force Powers and a light saber the entire time, or if Robinson Crusoe had an aristocrat's entire navy on standby offshore.
That's not how adventure fiction works!
"Adventure fiction" isn't just "going to wacky new locations and using a bit of martial arts every now and again."
It's the exact same problem with Daima, but I think GT is even worse: adventure fiction is based around overcoming perilous odds through one's witty use of their own limitations and abilities in a variety of different situations, often challenging a character's very perception of the world and themselves
The exotic locations are a thing because they represent a break from the character's normal comfort zone and familiarity
Dragon Ball, even in the earliest installments, has always struggled with this because of how impossibly strong Goku is, but it was still somewhat manageable in early DB
In GT, they straight up have Goku (and Trunks) simply NOT use their superpowers so the plot can still happen
Like, I know Dragon Ball is fundamentally rooted in a more wuxia style of progression/cultivation fantasy, which some Westerners might not get or even like because a lot of that literally says "train more, cultivate your chi, and you can literally become strong enough to punch out literal gods and immortals," but sometimes it deigns to return to its more adventurous roots. And it keeps fucking it up because it doesn't know how to depower Goku while maintaining the intense powers the series is known for.

But it's actually quite easy and they almost did something with it.

Goku at this point has Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan is extremely iconic. There's no chance he WON'T be able to use Super Saiyan because that's what people come to the series for.
Then depower Super Saiyan
Hell, if you want to REALLY throw DeeBeeZee lovers AND Adobencha Ball fans a curveball both will like, bring back Battle Powers for a sequence. Have Son Goku transform all the way up to Super Saiyan 3.... and it's revealed that his battle power is roughly equivalent to Nappa. Which by universal standards is still extremely high, but that's nowhere near what we've seen Goku achieve.
It turns out that his body is literally his child's body and chi control; he can transform, he can use instant teleportation, he can use all the abilities he's gained.... but it's still as if late Piccolo arc Son Goku is the one using them.

To really twist the knife, take away Trunks and replace him with someone else, and arbitrarily say Pan isn't strong; now there's no way out. Son Goku really is reduced in a more honest way, and even using what is at that point his maximum possible power only pushes him to level of power that Dragon Ball Z had surpassed within its first story arc. Then, over time as he explores the universe, he retrains his child's body, growing stronger and stronger (because simply being a kid doesn't mean there's some cap on your strength) so we're watching his progression all over again but in a sort of "New Game Plus" mode, which means when he reaches Super Saiyan 4, it also feels like the culmination of this training and journey on top of being his peak adult potential unleashed.
And in the mean time, Kid Goku has to actually use strategy and wit to overcome obstacles and enemies. Even otherwise broken movesets like flight and instant movement could be challenged; imagine trying to make instantaneous movement work on a planet where there's some bizarro magic that makes chi shift, where Goku might think he's locking onto something but it actually tricks him and sends him 50,000 miles off course. He still has the move, he's not arbitrarily unable to use it for plot reasons; it's a genuine challenge in an interesting new location that simply "blow everything up" wouldn't resolve

As ANOTHER bonus, he can even utilize Super Saiyan as a boost of his other abilities besides just raw strength, since against some obstacles even a 50x strength boost might make no difference... but radically enhanced ability to hear and track motion, an explosion of chi reflecting off walls and bodies other objects regardless of visibility, or just bright light in general could make the difference between life or death

If he really needed incredible strength, then there's Super Saiyan 3, but it's not going to make him the strongest in the universe, and the form notoriously puts an incredible strain on him. Now it doesn't feel like Goku's arbitrarily refusing to use or stay at Super Saiyan but has to actually more strategically use it

Just way more ideas that could have been that they didn't even try!

Rambling over...!

[DanielSSJ]

Funnily enough, that's something Totally Not Mark's doing in his big Daima rewrite video series.

[Yuli Ban]

I'm aware!

Actually, this could be a great video subject for DBD in the future: a breakdown of what 'action' and 'adventure' storytelling needs and requires, and when Dragon Ball does them well and poorly and why one so totally won out over the other. Because I don't think "fighting >>>> adventure" inherently. Sure, one is more immediately visceral and has way clearer progression of strength, but I can understand the mindset of finding the adventure eras of DB more charming or interesting and that it just happened to get a bum rap because of bad circumstances more than because the idea was bad

Because there are a lot of fans of "Adobencha Ball" who stand against DeeBeeZee™— a lot of folks who uphold the Dragon Team as a mostly human ensemble and focused far more on that sense of mysticism and adventure as opposed to "meatheads screaming, glowing, and blowing things up" that many stereotype all of later DB as being or of being the only big draw of the IP; but I tend to feel like a lot of them love the IDEA of Adobencha Ball more than what's actually there
Like they adore the idea of an ensemble cast that isn't just Saiyans, journeying to new lands that isn't just the same flat plains, generic wastelands, and Toriyama Futuristic City; but the problem is that there's more to making a compelling adventure story than that, and Dragon Ball consistently keeps failing to understand that. It wouldn't be a problem if the series didn't keep making it a problem; it's clear that later Toriyama probably wanted to do something more like a very laid back "travel" kind of story instead, where there AREN'T actually any stakes or peril and danger and it is more of a slice of life-on-the-go sort of story, but was roped in Daima by Iyoku.
Early GT, though, wanted to be early DB, but didn't understand why early DB worked.
Goku in early DB was still chaotically too strong to the point he singlehandedly took down an entire army with very little difficulty, sans for two (maybe three) opponents, and already had the Kinto-un and Nyoi-bo and a fairly strong Kamehameha. Outside of Taopaipai, Goku wasn't really being challenged, and that was part of the joke. But he was still pushed to his limits. (Actually, even in early DB we were already in material that made the adventure aspect a bit moot; Goku never had to go through Muscle Tower, for example)

It's kind of like Dragon Ball Sai's OGDB chapters, where Kid Vegeta swaps out with Goku, and as a result we get stories of an even pintier-sized Vegeta DESECRATING OGDB-era Earth threats, to the point the only peril possible comes from taking him out of the action. Those are fun in a Maximum Overkill power fantasy sort of way, if you ever wanted to see King Piccolo get one-shot or Garlic Jr face off against someone unironically 10x stronger than he is, but they're not terribly exciting.

That's essentially why DB adventure has always struggled and why action always won out (besides the fact it's a story directly rooted in kung fu fantasy storytelling anyway). Adventure and direct action aren't actually that different from each other; one more focuses the peril on individual characters, whereas the other is more the entire setting. Goku imperiled by, say, a Pirate Cave that is actually legitimately dangerous in a way he can't simply overpower or overcome by flying or teleporting around, could conceivably achieve that same tension as Goku facing off against an opponent stronger than him.

Ironically, one of the better instances of Dragon Ball having a handle on a decent adventure story was in the Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans video game. In that case, because of the conventions of RPG gaming, they quite literally couldn't wimp out of power scaling; even as late Cell arc Super Saiyans/Super Namekian, all the characters were flatly reduced in strength, but could still redevelop all their abilities, and thus had to go on an actual adventure with the moveset they had. If anything it proves you CAN do Adobencha Ball well with Adult Goku.

They had the perfect possible chance to go hogwild with this with the multiverse. With new universes and inter-universal weirdness, you can start doing freaky things without even reducing Goku and friends' abilities. You could justify a new genuine universe-hopping adventure without fake limitations.
Wouldn't that be fun?



(Also, Daima failed because it didn't even do a lot of the things the Adobencha Ball fans even want; if you're going to bring back adventure, use the existing cast before introducing new characters, let alone setting off with ONLY those new characters, especially if those new characters are vastly less interesting than who we already have and you wind up doing nothing with them; GT Trunks and Pan at least have some level of history and connection with viewers; we'd been following Trunks's growth for literally half a decade by that point, and Pan was set up as at least one of the next generation. They certainly didn't develop well at all, but I can at least say there was a botched attempt. Daima made no such attempt whatsoever; Glorio and Panzy are the definition of filler characters and Kaioshin's potential comeback was utterly wasted)

[Kenji]

This is the thing I've hated about GT the most, because there are literally multiple scenes where Son Goku transforms into Super Saiyan... and then depowers, during the Hunt for the (Black Star) Dragon Balls hunt.
Why?
For what reason?
Because the ADOBENCHA plot would be resolved if Goku just went Super Saiyan and beat up the current problem or used the GT Kamehameha.

I only remember that happening during Lood, and even then, Lood could only get defeated from the inside.
Goku going Super Saiyan there wouldn't really have helped in that scenario.

(snip rants)

Actually, this could be a great video subject for DBD in the future: a breakdown of what 'action' and 'adventure' storytelling needs and requires, and when Dragon Ball does them well and poorly and why one so totally won out over the other.

That's like... Your opinion.

Given MistareFusion's opinions on this franchise through the years, that the Red Ribbon Army arc is his #1 favorite arc in the manga, and the other Dragon Ball Z arcs are usually ranked poorly, and he actually enjoys GT's Baby Arc despite its botched execution... I don't think you will get the results you are expecting if they made a video about this topic.

I will defend to my dying breath that the Pilaf Saga is way better written, consistent, entertaining, and paced than 80% of Dragon Ball Z (the other 20% being the Saiyan Saga and Early Namek). Maybe that has something to do with it being the third version of a story Toriyama had already revised before, Dragon Boy and etc.

I would also argue the "DeeBeeZee" segments suffer just as much from the problems you're ranting about, such as characters being super overpowered, even when it's trying to create actual drama. That often results in Toriyama making the characters act extremely arrogant and/or stupid so the plot won't be resolved in 2 seconds, which I find frustrating given how often it happens in Cell and Boo.

That being said, I don't feel like one genre is objectively better than the other.
Just that I found the adventure parts (and yes, that includes GT, fight me) more enjoyable personally.

I will not defend Daima, though. Fuck that shit.

[Koitsukai]

Goku at this point has Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan is extremely iconic. There's no chance he WON'T be able to use Super Saiyan because that's what people come to the series for.
Then depower Super Saiyan
Hell, if you want to REALLY throw DeeBeeZee lovers AND Adobencha Ball fans a curveball both will like, bring back Battle Powers for a sequence. Have Son Goku transform all the way up to Super Saiyan 3.... and it's revealed that his battle power is roughly equivalent to Nappa. Which by universal standards is still extremely high, but that's nowhere near what we've seen Goku achieve.
It turns out that his body is literally his child's body and chi control; he can transform, he can use instant teleportation, he can use all the abilities he's gained.... but it's still as if late Piccolo arc Son Goku is the one using them.

To really twist the knife, take away Trunks and replace him with someone else, and arbitrarily say Pan isn't strong; now there's no way out. Son Goku really is reduced in a more honest way, and even using what is at that point his maximum possible power only pushes him to level of power that Dragon Ball Z had surpassed within its first story arc. Then, over time as he explores the universe, he retrains his child's body, growing stronger and stronger (because simply being a kid doesn't mean there's some cap on your strength) so we're watching his progression all over again but in a sort of "New Game Plus" mode, which means when he reaches Super Saiyan 4, it also feels like the culmination of this training and journey on top of being his peak adult potential unleashed.
And in the mean time, Kid Goku has to actually use strategy and wit to overcome obstacles and enemies. Even otherwise broken movesets like flight and instant movement could be challenged; imagine trying to make instantaneous movement work on a planet where there's some bizarro magic that makes chi shift, where Goku might think he's locking onto something but it actually tricks him and sends him 50,000 miles off course. He still has the move, he's not arbitrarily unable to use it for plot reasons; it's a genuine challenge in an interesting new location that simply "blow everything up" wouldn't resolve

As ANOTHER bonus, he can even utilize Super Saiyan as a boost of his other abilities besides just raw strength, since against some obstacles even a 50x strength boost might make no difference... but radically enhanced ability to hear and track motion, an explosion of chi reflecting off walls and bodies other objects regardless of visibility, or just bright light in general could make the difference between life or death

If he really needed incredible strength, then there's Super Saiyan 3, but it's not going to make him the strongest in the universe, and the form notoriously puts an incredible strain on him. Now it doesn't feel like Goku's arbitrarily refusing to use or stay at Super Saiyan but has to actually more strategically use it

Just way more ideas that could have been that they didn't even try!

Rambling over...!

[Yuli Ban]

.

That's like... Your opinion.

Given MistareFusion's opinions on this franchise through the years, that the Red Ribbon Army arc is his #1 favorite arc in the manga, and the other Dragon Ball Z arcs are usually ranked poorly, and he actually enjoys GT's Baby Arc despite its botched execution... I don't think you will get the results you are expecting if they made a video about this topic.

I mean yeah, that's the point; that's MY opinion, and I know MistareFusion has a different one so he'd have a completely different take, but I feel like it's still worth bringing up what makes adventure fiction work, and when it doesn't, versus martial arts-focused action, and when THAT doesn't as well. I feel MistareFusion explained pretty thoroughly why nonstop fighting and transformations gets boring ("[X] Tennis," emotional detachment). I just wanna see other takes on that topic because it's something I've been thinking about more while going back through the canon of adventure literature and serials.
(edit: funniest part, it's ironically East Asian martial fantasy that has a great ability to fuse adventure with martial arts action, especially Legend of the Condor Heroes)
And yeah, being fun wins out regardless, which is why a lot of the fighting scenes in Dragon Ball are so fondly remembered despite being narratively filler even in the manga, and why it's easy to enjoy the more adventurous parts of GT. I think there's merit just in something being fun and wild even if it's shallow; I only rant and ramble about this because DB has twice tried to invoke a sort of 'return to adventure' as opposed to constant fighting, and both instances it followed the same trajectory where the adventure storyline imploded and it was the fighting and transformations everyone actually remembered, but the fighting and transformations couldn't carry the story either, and it just feels like it's more indicative of there being some sort of split in what Dragon Ball is for its fans vs what was actually there



And again, I don't think that's saying that one of these styles of storytelling is worse; it's just been botched twice, and I wanna see others' takes on WHY that particular mistake happened twice over

"Hype up new series as a return to early DB's focus on comedy, adventuring, and martial artistry with an ensemble to break from the perception DB is all new transformations and constant fighting > focus on Kid Goku at that to complete the call back > it's cute but it doesn't do anything > "quick, bust out Furious George!" > new series now only remembered for new transformations and constant fighting > series ends"

[Kid Buu]

This is the thing I've hated about GT the most, because there are literally multiple scenes where Son Goku transforms into Super Saiyan... and then depowers, during the Hunt for the (Black Star) Dragon Balls hunt.
Why?
For what reason?
Because the ADOBENCHA plot would be resolved if Goku just went Super Saiyan and beat up the current problem or used the GT Kamehameha.

I only remember that happening during Lood, and even then, Lood could only get defeated from the inside.
Goku going Super Saiyan there wouldn't really have helped in that scenario.

(snip rants)

Actually, this could be a great video subject for DBD in the future: a breakdown of what 'action' and 'adventure' storytelling needs and requires, and when Dragon Ball does them well and poorly and why one so totally won out over the other.

That's like... Your opinion.

Given MistareFusion's opinions on this franchise through the years, that the Red Ribbon Army arc is his #1 favorite arc in the manga, and the other Dragon Ball Z arcs are usually ranked poorly, and he actually enjoys GT's Baby Arc despite its botched execution... I don't think you will get the results you are expecting if they made a video about this topic.

I will defend to my dying breath that the Pilaf Saga is way better written, consistent, entertaining, and paced than 80% of Dragon Ball Z (the other 20% being the Saiyan Saga and Early Namek). Maybe that has something to do with it being the third version of a story Toriyama had already revised before, Dragon Boy and etc.

I would also argue the "DeeBeeZee" segments suffer just as much from the problems you're ranting about, such as characters being super overpowered, even when it's trying to create actual drama. That often results in Toriyama making the characters act extremely arrogant and/or stupid so the plot won't be resolved in 2 seconds, which I find frustrating given how often it happens in Cell and Boo.

That being said, I don't feel like one genre is objectively better than the other.
Just that I found the adventure parts (and yes, that includes GT, fight me) more enjoyable personally.

I will not defend Daima, though. Fuck that shit.

I'm a big fan of the Pilaf arc. It's my favourite one outside of the Buu and Baby arcs.

[Zephyr]

(snip rants)

Actually, this could be a great video subject for DBD in the future: a breakdown of what 'action' and 'adventure' storytelling needs and requires, and when Dragon Ball does them well and poorly and why one so totally won out over the other.

That's like... Your opinion.

Given MistareFusion's opinions on this franchise through the years, that the Red Ribbon Army arc is his #1 favorite arc in the manga, and the other Dragon Ball Z arcs are usually ranked poorly, and he actually enjoys GT's Baby Arc despite its botched execution... I don't think you will get the results you are expecting if they made a video about this topic.

Yeah, I'm not sure what all sorts of action Gaffer Tape is into outside of Dragon Ball, but it could be interesting to see explored. I know of Power Rangers and Sailor Moon at least. Building off of Yuli Ban's suggestion though, I think it would be very fun to see something like Jackie Chan Dissection, or Bruce Lee Dissection, or maybe even Journey to the West Dissection, in the distant future.