Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
Herms wrote:
If anything, "just because" is the reason we get for Freeza's strength. Sure, in the android arc and Episode of Bardock we got some vague information about him coming from a powerful clan, and Toriyama says in one interview that Freeza's descended from a powerful mutant hybrid thing, but in the actual Freeza arc itself we get zilch. There, Freeza is the most powerful being in the universe...because he's Freeza. And this is coming after Vegeta was supposed to be strongest in the universe, the most gifted member of the strongest warrior race. Suddenly, there's a guy who's literally thousands of times stronger than that, because...he...just kinda is.
It's an amazingly flimsy excuse to introduce a stronger villain, but fans generally let it slide because, well, Freeza's just that cool a character. In other words, I don't think people in general really care much if new villains have good reasons for being stronger, they just care about whether or not they're good villains. If (for instance) most fans thought Rild was the coolest character in all of DB, I doubt you'd hear anyone question Goku and co. randomly running into someone do powerful in space, just as you seldom hear people question Goku and co. running into Freeza.
Actually, I agree with this. I don't like how powerful Freeza was and for such a flimsy reason. It's part of the reason I strongly dislike Freeza and the Freeza Arc.
So I guess I'm one of the few who cares about villains having a good reason to be so strong.
That's part of the charm, though. Freeza is so strong that he has to transform down into less powerful forms just because! Gifted with such raw power and a powerful family empire to back him up, he naturally uses such things for evil and personal gain. Then, along comes Goku. He started out so low that he was sent to kill mere humans (a couple of which could've easily killed him had he not become good and had been trained by them) on a backwater planet nobody really cares about in the middle of nowhere. Through hard word, dedication, and a resolute spirit he actually does the impossible and overcomes all odds to become more powerful than Freeza and manages to defeat him in one-on-one fair combat.
Freeza not having a reason for being so strong while Goku does is part of why that story works.
Daimakku wrote:Android 17 and Android 18, in my opinion, shouldn't have been as powerful as Freeza, but I guess they were, and they were fun characters so I just kind of let that one slide.
But General Gilldo... who the fuck is he? Why is he more powerful than Majin Buu? "Just because" is a lame excuse and I don't accept it.
General Rilldo is a robot (a Machine Mutant), just like the Androids. If artificial beings can be stronger than Freezer, then why couldn't they be stronger than Majin Buu?! Dabura was also a henchman, and it was stated in the manga that he was at Cell's level, maybe slightly stronger.
Saiga wrote:Rilld and Ledgic are random space aliens. Wooo
Ledgic doesn't appear to be that strong in GT, he is at Pikkon's level imo
JeffJarrett wrote:
Even if they are on another planet, they have to respect the law of that planet. When you're in a foreign country and the policemen decide to take your car because you parked it in a place it wasn't allowed you won't run after them and try to retrieve your car using your strength.
Real life doesn't apply to Dragon Ball. It would be impossible for me to retrieve my stolen car, I don't have the power to do so. And in that situation, I would be in the wrong. Not the case for Goku and co. Their ship was stolen by, for all they know, thieves. They have absolutely no reason not to at least catch up to the party.
And they clearly didn't respect the laws of that planet when they overthrew the ruler.
Also, there is a big difference between Majin Boo and Freeza, which is why "Androids > Freeza" is okay, and "Androids > Majin Boo" isn't.
Ledgic even being at Paikuhan's level would still be ridiculous when he's just a random alien with no explanation behind him. But I believe he's much stronger than that, since Goku had to (briefly) turn Super Saiyan in their fight.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
Saiga wrote:
Don't be condescending. I've seen the entire series. Ledgic was nothing more than a random space alien who randomly recognised a Saiyan.
Rilld was a random alien who worked for a brilliant genius.
Both these things are entirely unrelated to their power.
Ledgic was an underdeveloped character. So much potential only to be wasted. We don't know why he's so strong, but he's a bodyguard who'd probably seen his fair share around the universe. Rilld, on the other hand, is kinda like Captain Ginyu in the Freeza arc. We don't know why he's so strong, but we know he's had his fair share of battles, and that he has many devastating tricks up his sleeve.
Herms wrote:
Kaboom wrote:I think being labeled as "the God of Destruction who maintains the balance of the universe" is at least a slightly more effective basis for power than "just because."
If anything, "just because" is the reason we get for Freeza's strength. Sure, in the android arc and Episode of Bardock we got some vague information about him coming from a powerful clan, and Toriyama says in one interview that Freeza's descended from a powerful mutant hybrid thing, but in the actual Freeza arc itself we get zilch. There, Freeza is the most powerful being in the universe...because he's Freeza. And this is coming after Vegeta was supposed to be strongest in the universe, the most gifted member of the strongest warrior race. Suddenly, there's a guy who's literally thousands of times stronger than that, because...he...just kinda is.
It's an amazingly flimsy excuse to introduce a stronger villain, but fans generally let it slide because, well, Freeza's just that cool a character. In other words, I don't think people in general really care much if new villains have good reasons for being stronger, they just care about whether or not they're good villains. If (for instance) most fans thought Rild was the coolest character in all of DB, I doubt you'd hear anyone question Goku and co. randomly running into someone do powerful in space, just as you seldom hear people question Goku and co. running into Freeza.
I thought I was the only one who wondered about this. We never know why Freeza's so strong. The way he's presented in the series, it's heavily implied he's a genius who just happened to be born so damn powerful. No training, nothing. The most he'd probably done is create his transformations, but even then Vegeta says that there are races in the universe that are born with the ability to transform for camoflague, it's just that Freeza's transformation are to hold his power back.
Thanos wrote:GT was an excuse to put out more characters. It added some new flavor to the video games. Nothing more, nothing less. The series, I believe, is primarily aimed at casual viewers who wouldn't mind seeing even more Dragon Ball every week.
One trend I've been noticing is that people seem to be referring to this movie as taking place "between the end of Z and before GT," as if GT actually happened. It would be a legitimate descriptor, but unfortunately for GT, Toriyama is involved. And with the existence of the Dragon Ball Online story, there really is no place for GT anymore. I believe Dragon Ball has actually outgrown GT... and at this point it's a bit of a nuisance. If Toriyama wanted to continue on and make more media after this movie that takes place around the same time GT does, but a canonized version, that would be great, but it would only create fusion and a divergence that people who didn't have a firm grasp on the series would be helplessly confused by. If an official Super Saiyan 4 came out, or a new fate for Uub was written, that would just make everything so confusing.
This is truth
My favourite art style (and animation) outside Toriyama who worked on Dragon Ball: Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru, Masaki Satō, Minoru Maeda, Takeo Ide, Hisashi Eguchi, Katsumi Aoshima, Tomekichi Takeuchi, Masahiro Shimanuki, Kazuya Hisada
I hope the movie doesn't end with Goku damaging him somewhat at full power and he decides to leave Earth in peace. I want to see Bils go down.
penguintruth wrote:Oh hey, I found a page from the script!
Goku: Kaio-sama... is that you?
Kaio: Goku! Don't fight him! He's too much for even you! I shudder to even think just how horribly overpowered and unlikely strong this guy who clearly could have stepped in to defeat Freeza or Buu but didn't and even though he's way more powerful than anyone ever nobody bothered to bring him up until now, even in passing... is!
Goku: Kaio-sama... I've got to try! For my friends I ignore... for my family I neglect... for all the hogies and grinders and subs and gyros... I think they might be the same thing, but they're all yummy... I haven't eaten yet! For the Earth!
Giant swell of music.
Kaio: GOKUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!
Goku charges his laser.
After the battle:
Kaio: Goku! You did it, you somehow through improbable odds beat the guy who defeated you once and you somehow defeated by tapping into hidden power that you were probably too stupid to remember you had! Its a good thing you never once listen to any warning I ever say and I always turn out looking stupid for underestimating you despite the fact you always end up winning regardless of the situation, as if you were some cherished main character the original creator couldn't bare to not defeat the villain!
Goku: That's right, Kaio-sama... I did it. For the hogies. I mean, for the Earth!
Kaio: Oh, that Goku!
CUE CREDITS (inexplicably a L'Arc song now)
That will be Kaio's role in the film.
FUND IT.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Y'know, I kinda hope Goku's defeat is similar to Gotenks's initial encounter with Buu where he takes off and arrives back in the next panel all beaten up.
While that would open up time for more storyline parts of the movie, I think I would rather see Birusu and Goku's battle if Birusu does indeed have some really crazy, special, magical abilities that Goku hasn't encountered before.
So Goku gets wrecked, who does B*s go after next? Vegeta? Can't hold a candle to Kakarot. Gotenks? Strong, but he's a silly little child that has no real battle sense. Gohan? Yeah, he'll probably catch the battle that was meant for the next man. Ultimate Gohan is the only one that makes sense to me.
Kendamu wrote:
Freeza not having a reason for being so strong while Goku does is part of why that story works.
And it makes for a pretty crappy story.
That was a cheap, dirty, and underhanded response.
Um...not sure if joking?
But I agree with your comment about Freeza and Goku. Freeza's like the upper-class privileged aristocrat who never had to work for anything yet feels a complete sense of superiority over all living things. Goku's the lower-class hard working man who's had to train his entire life for his accomplishments, and doesn't typically boast about them. If it wasn't written by Toriyama, I might even say it's social commentary.
I'm a lurker and I don't generally post but I'm surprised by how many are complaining over the fact that this new enemy, Bils, is more powerful than Boo/Buu. I don't really understand how this is any different than any other part of DB. What is upsetting you guys so much? Is it really that hard to believe there is a being more powerful than Boo? Bils may have similarities in power to Boo... Boo is only so powerful because he is a magic entity and a god can very well have similar abilities. Besides, it's not ever really about how powerful anybody is or isn't, it's about the characters so this will all matter very little if the story is good.
I also don't really understand why everyone is bringing GT into this so much. I treat GT kind of like I treat the 13 movies. A side-story what if scenario. Yes, I'm that kind of fan who primarily only considers things cannon if Toriyama had something to do with them. But that's only because I feel he is the only one who seems to really understand that the series is more about the character development and relationships. The fights are interesting because of those relationships. That's how I've always seen it anyway. The movies were just rehashes of Toriyama's own ideas and GT was too, both seemingly failing to understand that concept. I know Toriyama came up with the "concept" of GT, but he did not give them any detailed account besides a starting point. Had Toriyama written an entire manga based on his idea I think it would have likely turned out far, far more interesting.
This is why I do enjoy Heya Son goku... because although it is silly, it captures that "spirit" that makes the series more than just a bunch of fights. Toriyama's involvement with this film is the whole reason I am excited for it. Think about Episode of Bardock. It's another example of someone not getting what the series is all about, it just rehashes the SSJ Goku scenario from the Frieza arc.
So I guess I just don't get what the big deal with Bils is.
It's a pretty foregone conclusion that Goku will be facing an opponent stronger than him. It would be a pretty crappy movie if he fought somebody weaker. Funny, though. Like maybe for most of the movie he's taking a nap while the villain beats everyone. Goku gets up from his nap, one-shots the villain on his way to the fridge, and makes a Dagwood sandwich, dipping it in the blood of the villain and washing it down with the tears of his allies.
Then a cookie.
Kentai wrote:Son Gokuu is a fascinating character anyway, because he is - at face value, anyway - an idiot savant. The victim of violent head trauma as an infant [...] he's a simple bumpkin with a fair share of brain damage who's natural talents to work out what's wrong compensate for his broad lack of common sense. But he's also a fighter, through and through [...] he fight until he has, in no uncertain terms, beaten his enemy on terms they can both acknowledge. He doesn't want to kill anyone, or even prove that he can win... he just wants to know he can. He's an ineffably charming bastard who's manly leanings were really incendental, and yes, the fact that he was voiced by a squeaky woman made the combination perhaps all the more charming.
bleed0range wrote:I'm a lurker and I don't generally post but I'm surprised by how many are complaining over the fact that this new enemy, Bils, is more powerful than Boo/Buu. I don't really understand how this is any different than any other part of DB. What is upsetting you guys so much? Is it really that hard to believe there is a being more powerful than Boo? Bils may have similarities in power to Boo... Boo is only so powerful because he is a magic entity and a god can very well have similar abilities. Besides, it's not ever really about how powerful anybody is or isn't, it's about the characters so this will all matter very little if the story is good.
I also don't really understand why everyone is bringing GT into this so much. I treat GT kind of like I treat the 13 movies. A side-story what if scenario. Yes, I'm that kind of fan who primarily only considers things cannon if Toriyama had something to do with them. But that's only because I feel he is the only one who seems to really understand that the series is more about the character development and relationships. The fights are interesting because of those relationships. That's how I've always seen it anyway. The movies were just rehashes of Toriyama's own ideas and GT was too, both seemingly failing to understand that concept. I know Toriyama came up with the "concept" of GT, but he did not give them any detailed account besides a starting point. Had Toriyama written an entire manga based on his idea I think it would have likely turned out far, far more interesting.
This is why I do enjoy Heya Son goku... because although it is silly, it captures that "spirit" that makes the series more than just a bunch of fights. Toriyama's involvement with this film is the whole reason I am excited for it. Think about Episode of Bardock. It's another example of someone not getting what the series is all about, it just rehashes the SSJ Goku scenario from the Freeza arc.
So I guess I just don't get what the big deal with Bils is.
I'm also in the minority of people who aren't bothered/upset at all by Bils/Birusu/Virus being stronger than Buu. I don't care about where, if at all, GT fits in to this either. It's part of why I've been hanging back from posting for a little while, because none of that is stuff that matters to me. I want the movie to be fun and enjoyable, like the 08 special only with added action and higher stakes.
I mean, I understand that power levels and measuring strengths are important to others, and I can see how it's something people care about, and how it could bother them. Characterization is something that matters quite a bit to me; back during the days of the LAM, Chatku frustrated me like crazy because of how wildly different he was from Toriyama's Goku.
Last edited by Chuquita on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
I don't see how it's a problem with Bils being stronger, he is the god of Destruction, seems like a title that could surpass Boo. And besides, all other villains were surpassed, so why is Boo the only exception? Is it because he killed all the Kaio? Well, Freeza was space hitler and Cell was the synthesis of the whole main cast. Both of them seem just about worthy of "strongest villain" status.
Cipher wrote:Also, you can seriously like whatever and still get laid. That's a revelation that'll hit you at some point.
Chuquita wrote:
I'm also in the minority of people who aren't bothered/upset at all by Bils/Birusu/Virus being stronger than Buu.
I'm pretty sure it's a majority of people who aren't bothered by it. The reason people were having this debate and bringing GT into things is because ... I don't know / remember why. I think it had something to do with Goku being beat.
Insertclevername wrote:I don't see how it's a problem with Bils being stronger, he is the god of Destruction,
Am I the only one who takes the whole Hakaishin thing as hype? B*s is a god, 100% positive, but I'd take it just as seriously as I took Dabura's Makai-Oh title. A fancy name that just meant the dude was strong, but never really saw the title literally being carried out. I mean, lets face it, every big bad in Dragon Ball is a God of Destruction.
Insertclevername wrote:I don't see how it's a problem with Bils being stronger, he is the god of Destruction,
Am I the only one who takes the whole Hakaishin thing as hype? B*s is a god, 100% positive, but I'd take it just as seriously as I took Dabura's Makai-Oh title. A fancy name that just meant the dude was strong, but never really saw the title literally being carried out. I mean, lets face it, every big bad in Dragon Ball is a God of Destruction.
Unless he is literally the God who oversees the concept of destruction/pain/grief, the entity who created it. Something like that.
