Gohan vs. Dabura

[Rocketman]

I don't know about you, but he looks like a SSJ2 to me.

And the fact that there's no lightning around him when he powers up at Buu's ball, then on the very next page, Goku and Vegeta are both surrounded by lightning means....?

[hleV]

Look.

Gohan was SSJ1. Why? It's a plot hole.
The hair were also incorrectly drawn for a SSJ1. Why? It's a mistake.

Solved.

[Son_Gohan]

No, what I said was Gohan only being SSj 1 was a huge detriment to the story.

If people could get over the art, everything would make tons more sense.

But the strands of hair really mean nothing in the face of a clear SSj 1 aura.

I agree with you, other than the aura part. That one long strand of hair has always been the SSJ2 trademark for Gohan, even as a kid. While auras have always been subject to change and sometimes don't even appear at all at times. Just look at SSJ2 Gohan's aura in the Cell Games, it is not the same as the one used in the Buu saga. Since auras are not a part of the physical transformation, and are connected to the user's Ki, I don't see it as holding more significance than the hair.

And the fact that there's no lightning around him when he powers up at Buu's ball, then on the very next page, Goku and Vegeta are both surrounded by lightning means....?

That Gohan's SSJ2 power is not at Goku and Vegeta's level. Giving all three lightning would only portray them as being equal in power, when we know Gohan wasn't.

[Rocketman]

That Gohan's SSJ2 power is not at Goku and Vegeta's level. Giving all three lightning would only portray them as being equal in power, when we know Gohan wasn't.

But he was equal to them at the tournament?

[Bussani]

Look.

Gohan was SSJ1. Why? It's a plot hole.
The hair were also incorrectly drawn for a SSJ1. Why? It's a mistake.

Solved.

Gohan's SSJ1 hair looks the same at the tournament. Maybe his fringe just grew out before the tournament.

[hleV]

Look.

Gohan was SSJ1. Why? It's a plot hole.
The hair were also incorrectly drawn for a SSJ1. Why? It's a mistake.

Solved.

Gohan's SSJ1 hair looks the same at the tournament.

Yes. It's a mistake.

[Bussani]

Gohan's SSJ1 hair looks the same at the tournament.

Yes. It's a mistake.

If so, it's a pretty consistent one. His Super Saiyan hair in the Kaioshin realm is the same as at the tournament, too. What makes you so sure that Toriyama didn't change it on purpose?

[Dayspring]

No, he doesn't actually. The term SSJ2, surpassed SSJ, a Saiyan who has broken through the SSJ wall, whatever you may call it; all these would've been applicable... but it is not brought up. If you're trying to use the statement of anger as a means of referring to his Super Saiyajin 2 form, that still doesn't cohere, because at the tournament he never needed it to transform. In the anime's interpretation, they use a flashback to exemplify Goku's statements and they don't show Gohan transforming into SSJ2 for the first time, they show the Kamehameha struggle where he releases all his power to defeat Cell, which makes the reference to what form Gohan was using to me, being clear as day.

Yes, but the Cell Games establish that when he taps into his anger, he uses the dormant power to transform into SSJ2. Otherwise, who would care if Gohan could tap into his dormant power? Sure he'd probably be stronger than Dabura, but he'd still be weaker than what we saw at the Cell Games (meaning no SSJ2 for against Boo).

We don't know exactly how much weaker Gohan became. When Gohan transforms as a SSJ2 at the tournament, Vegeta comments that he was nowhere near the level he was against Cell, so for his SSJ1 level to have weakened lower than Goku's strength at the Cell Games is possible. Also, for Gohan to be a weakened SSJ1, I would imagine Dabura wouldn't have had much trouble causing damage to him, yet it seemed to be an issue during the fight.

I think we're arguing the same point here. My point is that instead of being able to kick Dabura's ass in SSJ (something Cell Games SSJ Gohan could do), he's been weakened to a point where he's able to put up a fight instead of dominate a fight.

We do see him use that familiar ability during the Buu saga though, when he tells everyone that he's coming to Earth for one day.

Gohan only needs to lose control of himself when triggering his anger to release dormant power, not when transforming into SSJ2 (as evident when he transforms against Kibito). It's true that anger was what contributed to him transforming into SSJ2 the first time, but since it was stated that Goku and Vegeta achieved their SSJ2 forms through training, we can deduce that Gohan's anger rose his Ki enough to break through the 'Super Saiyan wall' and beyond, and the transformation not being a result of the anger itself but due to the Ki boost. In Goku's case, at least we are given an actual reason to validate his actions, but to assume that Gohan is unable to transform into SSJ2 anymore for reasons not explicitly given in the manga or anywhere else for that matter, I'm not really buying that.

Goku was relying on Kaio's telepathy there, not his own.

Going SSJ2 against Kibito established that it takes a damn long time for this Gohan to gather enough power to go SSJ2 at will. A faster way would be to tap into his dormant power, which he can only do by getting angry. I'm not saying it's impossible for Gohan to turn SSJ2 anymore, just that he no longer has a means of doing so practically because of how weak he's gotten.

Let's say the SSJ2 wall is "1,000 KI points" and his anger releases "300 points" of dormant ki. In the Cell Games, SSJ Gohan had well over "900 points," so using his anger-triggered dormant power tossed him into the 1200s, well beyond the amount needed to activate SSJ2. However, being so close to the wall, Gohan could have easily just gathered the amount needed if he focused, so the second time he goes SSJ2 at the Cell Games, an intense rage wasn't needed.

Flash-forward 7 years. SSJ Gohan is now in the lower "700s." To go SSJ2, he must now spend a lot of time doing nothing but gather energy. Which is easier and faster, about 50 points, or close to 300? If he could get angry, something he can't do at will for "some reason" (I blame lack of rage training like he did when he learned SSJ, since he hasn't done ANY training in 7 years), he'd get those 300 points in a flash. Since he can't, he'd need to either have Dabura wait a while like Kibito did, or have Goku or Vegeta stall for time (like SSJ3 Goku had Vegeta do against Kid Boo). Obviously Dabura won't wait, while Gohan is too embarassed to ask for that kind of a favor, so he instead tries to gather his ki while fighting in SSJ. As a result, he simply doesn't transform into SSJ2 against Dabura.

[Xyex]

Gohan was SSJ1. Why? It's a plot hole.

It's not a plot hole, actually. It makes perfectly logical sense within the story, people just don't like it.

I agree with you, other than the aura part. That one long strand of hair has always been the SSJ2 trademark for Gohan, even as a kid.

So was the aura.

And his hair changed since then, he's got one strand in both SSJ and SSJ2 in the Buu Saga. Thus the aura is the only indicator.

That Gohan's SSJ2 power is not at Goku and Vegeta's level. Giving all three lightning would only portray them as being equal in power, when we know Gohan wasn't.

It would portray them all as being SSJ2, not as being equal in power. Or did Gohan suddenly lose massive amounts of power between the tournament and his fight with Dabura?

[Kaboom]

The appearance of the aura changes with the form, not with the amount of power used. I'll point again to Gotenks, here. As a Super Saiyan, he's arguably and highly possibly just as, or more, powerful than any of the Super Saiyan 2s. Maybe even in Super Saiyan 3 Goku's neighborhood of raw power. But he's still just got the aura of a Super Saiyan. Because he's only at Super Saiyan.

Likewise with everyone's hero, Super Vegetto. He's definitely way more powerful than any of the other Super Saiyans, regardless of what transformation they're using. Yet save for one quick burst of lightning for visual effect as he was transforming, he maintains the aura of a regular Super Saiyan 1. Because he's only using Super Saiyan 1. If the aura just changed with power, then Vegetto's would be so intense, spikey, and full of bolts that it'd put everyone else to shame.

[Dayspring]

The appearance of the aura changes with the form, not with the amount of power used. I'll point again to Gotenks, here. As a Super Saiyan, he's arguably and highly possibly just as, or more, powerful than any of the Super Saiyan 2s. Maybe even in Super Saiyan 3 Goku's neighborhood of raw power. But he's still just got the aura of a Super Saiyan. Because he's only at Super Saiyan.

Likewise with everyone's hero, Super Vegetto. He's definitely way more powerful than any of the other Super Saiyans, regardless of what transformation they're using. Yet save for one quick burst of lightning for visual effect as he was transforming, he maintains the aura of a regular Super Saiyan 1. Because he's only using Super Saiyan 1. If the aura just changed with power, then Vegetto's would be so intense, spikey, and full of bolts that it'd put everyone else to shame.

Agreed. The more power pumped into the user's SSJ form, the more erratic and similar to the USSJ levels its FLAME aura becomes (as seen with FPSSJ Goku vs Cell). However, lightning bolts are nowhere to be found.

Well, excluding NMZ, but not everyone feels NMZ is canon and that was also part of the gag.

[Son_Gohan]

But he was equal to them at the tournament?

He was the only known SSJ2 at the time and this was before his energy got drained, so he had no equals as far as we knew.

Yes, but the Cell Games establish that when he taps into his anger, he uses the dormant power to transform into SSJ2. Otherwise, who would care if Gohan could tap into his dormant power? Sure he'd probably be stronger than Dabura, but he'd still be weaker than what we saw at the Cell Games (meaning no SSJ2 for against Boo).

But he had already reached the transformation, anger was only needed to raise his maximum Ki, it's not the trigger for transforming each and every time. His SSJ2 appearance at the tournament proves that. During the Kamehameha duel against Cell, he was weakened substantially, and was able to win only because he drew upon his dormant power at the last second. The situation in the Buu saga is similar, in that, he's a weakened SSJ2 and the only way to overcome his opponent would be through tapping into his dormant power through anger, only this time he wasn't able to.

I think we're arguing the same point here. My point is that instead of being able to kick Dabura's ass in SSJ (something Cell Games SSJ Gohan could do), he's been weakened to a point where he's able to put up a fight instead of dominate a fight.

That still doesn't explain the damage issue. Gohan was hit by an attack that was strong enough to send him flying yet he doesn't have a scratch on him. I'd see it as believable coming from a SSJ2 since back in the Cell Games when PC punched Gohan at his full power, Gohan wasn't damaged at all. But for a weakened SSJ1 to tank that shot, I find hard to believe.

Goku was relying on Kaio's telepathy there, not his own.

Going SSJ2 against Kibito established that it takes a damn long time for this Gohan to gather enough power to go SSJ2 at will. A faster way would be to tap into his dormant power, which he can only do by getting angry. I'm not saying it's impossible for Gohan to turn SSJ2 anymore, just that he no longer has a means of doing so practically because of how weak he's gotten.

Let's say the SSJ2 wall is "1,000 KI points" and his anger releases "300 points" of dormant ki. In the Cell Games, SSJ Gohan had well over "900 points," so using his anger-triggered dormant power tossed him into the 1200s, well beyond the amount needed to activate SSJ2. However, being so close to the wall, Gohan could have easily just gathered the amount needed if he focused, so the second time he goes SSJ2 at the Cell Games, an intense rage wasn't needed.

Flash-forward 7 years. SSJ Gohan is now in the lower "700s." To go SSJ2, he must now spend a lot of time doing nothing but gather energy. Which is easier and faster, about 50 points, or close to 300? If he could get angry, something he can't do at will for "some reason" (I blame lack of rage training like he did when he learned SSJ, since he hasn't done ANY training in 7 years), he'd get those 300 points in a flash. Since he can't, he'd need to either have Dabura wait a while like Kibito did, or have Goku or Vegeta stall for time (like SSJ3 Goku had Vegeta do against Kid Boo). Obviously Dabura won't wait, while Gohan is too embarassed to ask for that kind of a favor, so he instead tries to gather his ki while fighting in SSJ. As a result, he simply doesn't transform into SSJ2 against Dabura.

If I remember correctly, King Kai's telepathy only communicates to one person, but that time Goku was able to communicate to everyone in the room.

It only establishes that he hadn't actually transformed into SSJ2 for 7 years, that doesn't mean it would take that long every time. Goku said he wasn't used to his SSJ3 form when he transformed against Fat Buu, which is why it took longer than the others, but later on is able to transform in seconds.

An intense rage wasn't needed against Kibito and was never something he was able to control at will. Unlike his SSJ2 form that is able to be controlled at will. We actually never saw how the battle began, so we can only speculate on what occurred before it started. However, when he's powering up against Buu's ball he's clearly trying his best and isn't hindered in any way that would prohibit him from using his strongest form, so there's really no excuse for him not to use it there.

So was the aura.

And his hair changed since then, he's got one strand in both SSJ and SSJ2 in the Buu Saga. Thus the aura is the only indicator.

That's actually not true, we've seen him as a SSJ1 and he clearly has two strands over the forehead.



Plus, how can the aura be the only indicator if he didn't have one in his first two SSJ appearances?

It would portray them all as being SSJ2, not as being equal in power. Or did Gohan suddenly lose massive amounts of power between the tournament and his fight with Dabura?

Kibito states that he wasn't at full power after healing him and we've seen Goku become SSJ2 without lightning against Yakon. If it was his full power, than Gohan would've said more than just "You had a huge Ki when you won", since it probably would've surpassed his SSJ2 power at the tournament. But it didn't, and Vegeta was the only one who had noticed Goku had used SSJ2 at the time. Lightning does not need to be present to know someone is using the SSJ2 form.

The appearance of the aura changes with the form, not with the amount of power used. I'll point again to Gotenks, here. As a Super Saiyan, he's arguably and highly possibly just as, or more, powerful than any of the Super Saiyan 2s. Maybe even in Super Saiyan 3 Goku's neighborhood of raw power. But he's still just got the aura of a Super Saiyan. Because he's only at Super Saiyan.

Likewise with everyone's hero, Super Vegetto. He's definitely way more powerful than any of the other Super Saiyans, regardless of what transformation they're using. Yet save for one quick burst of lightning for visual effect as he was transforming, he maintains the aura of a regular Super Saiyan 1. Because he's only using Super Saiyan 1. If the aura just changed with power, then Vegetto's would be so intense, spikey, and full of bolts that it'd put everyone else to shame.

Well there are times when a character would get injured and lose their aura, yet still maintain the SSJ form. So I'm certain it is linked to their power to some extent. Here's an example of what I mean:



After Majin Vegeta gets injured by Fat Buu, his aura turns into the same shape as Gohan's was against Dabura. He still maintains lightning though, because he's still stronger than Gohan SSJ2 form was.

[Kaboom]

That's actually not true, we've seen him as a SSJ1 and he clearly has two strands over the forehead.

Yes, during the Saiyaman arc. But then we get a timeskip of a couple weeks. Apparently Gohan got a haircut or something in that time, because during and after the Tournament, he consistently has only the one bang in both SSj and SSj2.

[Savage68]

It's not a plot hole, actually. It makes perfectly logical sense within the story, people just don't like it.

This thread itself and countless others say differently.

[Dayspring]

It's not a plot hole, actually. It makes perfectly logical sense within the story, people just don't like it.

This thread itself and countless others say differently.

OH MY GIDDY FRAK! Clearly Xyex wasn't refering to those who agree with him when he wrote that.

[Savage68]

I...I know that.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Do you also think that Vegeta planned on beating #18 and Piccolo without using SSj, as well? >.>

Yes, actually. Since I believe that base Goku and Vegeta were stronger than Piccolo in the Majin Boo Arc.

[Savage68]

Let me guess. The poorly written plot device line about the (suppressed to nothing)Saiyans being stronger than Piccolo by Dabura is your citation for that.

Amirite or amirite?

[Xyex]

Yes, actually. Since I believe that base Goku and Vegeta were stronger than Piccolo in the Majin Boo Arc.

This here is one of more absurd suggestions I see floating around about powers in the Buu saga. Let's outline why, shall we?

SSJ Goku on Namek - 150,000,000
Android 17 - Minimum 2.5x stronger than SSJ Goku on Namek
SSJ Vegeta (Android Saga) - Maximum of about 70% of Android 17's power.
Base Vegeta - 50x weaker than SSJ Vegeta.
Piccolo+Kami - About even with 17.
Piccolo at Cell Games - Stronger than Piccolo+Kami.
Majority of Saiya-jin Power Growth in the Android/Cell Sagas - Improvement of SSJ.

Conclusion: Base powers barely budged during the Android through Cell Sagas, no base Saiya-jin ever came close to matching an SSJ's level of power, and certainly not Piccolo's. Without Zenkais to shoot powers up through the roof we're back to 'standard' power gains (180 to 416 in 8 years of training, plus with a power boosting event to help get there). Going with those gains again Goku would be at a power of less than 16,000,000 in the Buu Saga. Even compensating for 'special gains' through RoSaT and Otherworld Training he's highly unlikely to be over even 25,000,000. Clearly no where near Piccolo.

[Son_Gohan]

Yes, during the Saiyaman arc. But then we get a timeskip of a couple weeks. Apparently Gohan got a haircut or something in that time, because during and after the Tournament, he consistently has only the one bang in both SSj and SSj2.

But if you look at his base form he still has the two strands. Even if he got his hair shorter, it wouldn't matter unless the smaller strand was cut off.