Success of a failure... dissecting FUNi's Z dub

[ABED]

FF7 is completely different, it's a video game and space was an issue.
Okay, Faulconer is part orchestral, but they the roots of the show aren't there. I find it hollow. It's all about the cool action but that's not all the show is.

Yes, being inconsistent with DB means it doesn't work in Z because it's all DB. Z was an artificial distinction made for the anime. Z is just a continuation in the story and not a radically different series. I'm willing to admit that it fit the mangled dub to a T. Oddly, the music does go with the green voice actors, weird casting choices, and terrible dialog.

I actually remember very few of Kikuchi's tracks from Z as most of it sounds the same, bland and forgettable.

I feel the same way about Faulconer.

Let's get off the subject of music. It's going around in circles.

[eledoremassis02]

I think Falconers Goku going Super Saiyajin theme was one of the rare (if not the only moment) where I liked it better than the Japanese score, but I can see why other like it and I am in no way a Falconer fan

I just see the old Z dubs with the edits/replacement music as a piece of Anime History. If I recall, test screening for Z felt the Japanese voices (atleast Goku) were not heroic enough *or at all* and there was way too little music. It makes since since our movies and cartoons are wall to wall music. They were fitting what test audiences were looking for (I am totally against this by the way *Spider-man 3*)

Also, on the flip side, when it comes to dubbing (and creating the same feel) the Japanese don't always do a good job. Granted they do keep the original music.

Batman TAS is a great example. I think it would be rather hard to get a cast as good as the original (same could be said with Z in some ways). I feel the Japanese voices are generic (much like I have seen said about the U.S Z dubs).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MiAFY527zg

[ABED]

It makes since since our movies and cartoons are wall to wall music.

Not all of them.

I'm glad you used Spider-Man 3 as an example of testing movies because my problem with making movies or TV shows by committee or by focus groups is often it ends up disjointed instead of a cohesive product.

[eledoremassis02]

It makes since since our movies and cartoons are wall to wall music.

Not all of them.

I'm glad you used Spider-Man 3 as an example of testing movies because my problem with making movies or TV shows by committee or by focus groups is often it ends up disjointed instead of a cohesive product.

True, it would be unfair to assume all. Sadly, it is a common to have a lot of music (especially in many 90's cartoons).

I feel the same way about committee / focus groups...they usually get the opposite of they should do.

[penguintruth]

Where did they do this supposed "test screening"?

[ABED]

Where did they do this supposed "test screening"?

I don't know if they did test screenings or focus groups, for all we know Gen Fukunaga was lying about having any sort of data, but he claims that he got feedback that kids enjoyed the new score.

[90sDBZ]

The Faulconer piece used for Goku's SSJ transformation, while not entirely bad on its own, completely misses the point of the scene, and is very superficial. You're supposed to be shitting yourself in fear, not slamming your head like you're at a Gwar concert. Kikuchi's piece accentuates the horror show occurring, Goku's terrible transformation from rage.

And Vegeta's sacrifice was done to the best of Kikuchi's work, his Movie 9 soundtrack, with its eerie, threatening sound.

Gohan becoming "mystic" has that upbeat, triumphant sound that also accompanies fusion. It works beautifully.

Slamming down the keys on a Casio while playing some pretty basic guitar riffs is not more memorable than a big, audacious orchestral sound.

Goku's Super Saiyan Transformation scene can be interpreted in different ways. At least that's how I see it. Yes there is definitely a horror element to it but Goku is also going through some crazy emotions. I feel like the Faulconer track really conveyed the emotional storm Goku was experiencing. It started off conveying his shock and his grief before moving on to his overwhelming rage. That's the angriest and most desperate Goku had been in his entire life so I don't see why focusing more on his rage is such a bad thing.

[Ajay]

Goku's Super Saiyan Transformation scene can be interpreted in different ways. At least that's how I see it. Yes there is definitely a horror element to it but Goku is also going through some crazy emotions. I feel like the Faulconer track really conveyed the emotional storm Goku was experiencing. It started off conveying his shock and his grief before moving on to his overwhelming rage. That's the angriest and most desperate Goku had been in his entire life so I don't see why focusing more on his rage is such a bad thing.

Gotta say, I disagree. The build up to it is fine, I actually quite like it but the moment he changes, I can't help but cringe. Like PenguinTruth says, it's totally off key. He's stood there with the look of the devil in his eye and you're meant to feel this overwhelming sense of fear. He's just snapped, this is a first and an unpredictable moment in the series and yet suddenly we have this headbanging rock tune that's trying to make the scene 'epic'. I just don't feel it, personally. The music should signify something momentous and terrifying. I can't help but feel that music is tailored around the idea that they wanted to make this scene 'cool' for younger viewers.

[90sDBZ]

Goku's Super Saiyan Transformation scene can be interpreted in different ways. At least that's how I see it. Yes there is definitely a horror element to it but Goku is also going through some crazy emotions. I feel like the Faulconer track really conveyed the emotional storm Goku was experiencing. It started off conveying his shock and his grief before moving on to his overwhelming rage. That's the angriest and most desperate Goku had been in his entire life so I don't see why focusing more on his rage is such a bad thing.

Gotta say, I disagree. The build up to it is fine, I actually quite like it but the moment he changes, I can't help but cringe. Like PenguinTruth says, it's totally off key. He's stood there with the look of the devil in his eye and you're meant to feel this overwhelming sense of fear. He's just snapped, this is a first and an unpredictable moment in the series and yet suddenly we have this headbanging rock tune that's trying to make the scene 'epic'. I just don't feel it, personally. The music should signify something momentous and terrifying. I can't help but feel that music is tailored around the idea that they wanted to make this scene 'cool' for younger viewers.

I don't really see how it's unpredictable. When I first saw it it was pretty clear what was about to go down. I don't see how the situation is all that scary. I mean yes it's scary in the sense that everyone is dying but any change in Goku at that point was surely a positive omen. I mean what more was there to be scared of? They'd already hit rock bottom with the Spirit Bomb failing and being left completely helpless against Frieza.

Out of curiosity what did everyone else think was going to happen when they saw the scene for the first time? To me it was clear that this would be the miracle that would allow Goku to beat Frieza. I just don't understand how there's any other way to interpret it. They were at rock bottom and any change in Goku at this point could only be a good thing. Plus Vegeta had spent the whole saga going on about the Legend of Super Saiyan as if it were a great thing and how it would rise up and bring an end to Frieza. As great as the scene and storyline is it was very predictable what would happen in the end.

[ABED]

It was possibly scary because he could lose himself in the power and the rage. The power could've been the death of him. The first thing he does in his anger is yell at his son, which is something he had never done. Everything the audience had been told about Super Saiyans was how powerful and merciless they were.

[90sDBZ]

It was possibly scary because he could lose himself in the power and the rage. The power could've been the death of him. The first thing he does in his anger is yell at his son, which is something he had never done. Everything the audience had been told about Super Saiyans was how powerful and merciless they were.

True there had been talk of Super Saiyans being ruthless but that was referring to regular ruthless saiyans, not one of a kind pure hearted ones like Goku. He even said to Vegeta before he died that he could never be as ruthless as him. He did shout at Gohan but that was after the initial transformation scene so I don't see how the transformation scene itself is all that scary. The dub also has him yell at Gohan afterwards and also plays serious, almost chilling sounding music when he does.

[ABED]

It was possibly scary because he could lose himself in the power and the rage. The power could've been the death of him. The first thing he does in his anger is yell at his son, which is something he had never done. Everything the audience had been told about Super Saiyans was how powerful and merciless they were.

True there had been talk of Super Saiyans being ruthless but that was referring to regular ruthless saiyans, not one of a kind pure hearted ones like Goku. He even said to Vegeta before he died that he could never be as ruthless as him. He did shout at Gohan but that was after the initial transformation scene so I don't see how the transformation scene itself is all that scary. The dub also has him yell at Gohan afterwards and also plays serious, almost chilling sounding music when he does.

But the audience doesn't know what the transformation entails other than a sure power boost. We don't know if it changes his personality, and he even says "get out of here before I lose all control!" and the episode ends with the narrator asking what the transformation means.

[Zephyr]

Goku's Super Saiyan Transformation scene can be interpreted in different ways. At least that's how I see it. Yes there is definitely a horror element to it but Goku is also going through some crazy emotions. I feel like the Faulconer track really conveyed the emotional storm Goku was experiencing. It started off conveying his shock and his grief before moving on to his overwhelming rage. That's the angriest and most desperate Goku had been in his entire life so I don't see why focusing more on his rage is such a bad thing.

But the dub music doesn't do that. It emphasizes how badass it is. Goku's friend just died right before his eyes, and Piccolo knocking on death's door himself. Goku's back is against the wall, and there's nothing he can do. He and his son will die to this ruthless monster. And then Goku snaps. He's pissed. The music in the dub is focusing on what's going to happen to Freeza once Goku finishes this transformation. The music in the original focuses on the emotional well being of Goku, and how terrible this might be of a change in him.

[Rocketman]

I didn't really get the "dangerous" vibe for the JP music. Too much of the whistley "fweedleeee" noise for me.

[ABED]

I didn't really get the "dangerous" vibe for the JP music. Too much of the whistley "fweedleeee" noise for me.

What whistle?

[Gyt Kaliba]

To be fair guys, I got a 'badass' vibe even in the Japanese version, with it's score. This could be entirely due to perspective I guess though - I had loooooonnggg known what was coming by the time I saw that scene in Japanese, so maybe that knowledge influenced how I was going to take the scene regardless of the score.

[Big Momma]

I didn't really get the "dangerous" vibe for the JP music. Too much of the whistley "fweedleeee" noise for me.

What whistle?

I know what he's talking about. It's used often in the JP BGM, but it's been done with woodwind instruments and horns.

[ABED]

I didn't really get the "dangerous" vibe for the JP music. Too much of the whistley "fweedleeee" noise for me.

What whistle?

I know what he's talking about. It's used often in the JP BGM, but it's been done with woodwind instruments and horns.

Okay, it's used often, but I don't recall a whistle in that music.

[Rocketman]

I dunno if it is a whistle, but the music goes like BUM BA BUM BUM and then it does a little fweedeleee~~ BUM BA BUM BUM fweeeee~

[Quebaz]

I dunno if it is a whistle, but the music goes like BUM BA BUM BUM and then it does a little fweedeleee~~ BUM BA BUM BUM fweeeee~

We're talking about this song right? You must mean the "high pitched" parts right? How doesn't that sound dangerous, It scares the heck out of me.