How strong was Dabura?

[Kamiccolo9]

Yep, that's it. Goku seems to be guessing Dabura's power level, rather than actually sensing it.

...But neither you or Kaboom actually know? The Z Fighters have just about ALWAYS been general like that in regards to power levels, all the back to when Goku fought Vegeta for the very first time, and though "jeez, this guy is even stronger than I expected him to be!".

It's Kaboom's argument. I was just showing where that part came from.

At the moment, I'm at the point where it would make more sense if he was SSJ2, and I'd like for him to be SSJ2, since there's no reason why he shouldn't be able to, but the manga itself shows him as a regular SSJ. I don't really care about counting rows of hair and whatnot; SSJ2 is almost always shown with sparks and a specific aura, and Gohan doesn't have them here. And when the Daizenshuu contradicts what is shown in the manga, the manga takes precedent. So, as far as I'm concerned, any Daizenshuu statement that Gohan is SSJ2 is rendered null and void by the fact that Gohan isn't drawn as one in the manga.

If this was, say, a Marvel comic, in which the writer and artist were different people, then you all would have a more valid point. But since Toryama is handling both story and artwork itself, it makes more sense to me to go with what we are actually shown.

As I said, I would rather Gohan be a SSJ2 here, and it would make sense for him to be one, but that is just not what is shown.

[Fionordequester]

At the moment, I'm at the point where it would make more sense if he was SSJ2, and I'd like for him to be SSJ2, since there's no reason why he shouldn't be able to, but the manga itself shows him as a regular SSJ. I don't really care about counting rows of hair and whatnot; SSJ2 is almost always shown with sparks and a specific aura, and Gohan doesn't have them here.

Sorry about lumping you in with Kaboom. I think I may have temporarily forgotten that you two were different people, if you know what I mean.

Anyways, what if I exposed a really large plothole that would REALLY make Gohan being SSJ1 make no sense? Because I think I might be able to do that if I can get people to agree on Dabura being around either Full Power Perfect Cell, or Super Perfect Cell. I'm not positive, but I think I'll be able to.

So, if I may ask, supposing that, hypothetically, Piccolo knew what 100% of Frieza's power was like (unlike my last example), and knew exactly what it was. Should Piccolo say to someone "I've become as strong as Frieza!", is it more likely that he means...

A) Frieza at around a third of his strength?

B) Frieza at 50% of his strength?

C) Frieza at 100% of his power?

[TheMightyOzaru]

I really hope this thread gets closed soon, this is such a pointless argument. Arguing Gohan's a SSJ2 here is like arguing Sonic the Hedgehog is red .

[Zephyr]

Anyways, what if I exposed a really large plothole that would REALLY make Gohan being SSJ1 make no sense? Because I think I might be able to do that if I can get people to agree on Dabura being around either Full Power Perfect Cell, or Super Perfect Cell. I'm not positive, but I think I'll be able to.

That's something you would first need to convince people that Gohan was a SSj2 to make sufficiently evident.

[RandomGuy96]

I really hope this thread gets closed soon, this is such a pointless argument. Arguing Gohan's a SSJ2 here is like arguing Sonic the Hedgehog is red .

This attitude just disgusts me.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I really hope this thread gets closed soon, this is such a pointless argument. Arguing Gohan's a SSJ2 here is like arguing Sonic the Hedgehog is red .

This attitude just disgusts me.

Good for you. You're arguing against the fact that ALL SSJ2s have sparks in the manga by arguing Gohan is a SSJ2.

[Fionordequester]

That's something you would first need to convince people that Gohan was a SSj2 to make sufficiently evident.

Indeed. So I ask you, supposing that, hypothetically, Piccolo knew what 100% of Freeza's power was like (unlike my last example), and knew exactly what it was. Suppose the three years pass after Goku defeats Frieza, as normal. Sometime during their preparation for the Androids, Piccolo says to someone "I've become as strong as Freeza now!". Now, is it more likely that he means...

A) Freeza at around a third of his strength?

B) Freeza at 50% of his strength?

C) Freeza at 100% of his power?

[TheMightyOzaru]

It could mean any of these. I don't see what's so hard to believe about that. Freeza's power is a very big measuring stick.

[Son_Gohan]

The situations are still different, though. It was Goku's first time being shown as a Super Saiyan 2 and he quickly reverted back right after. We've actually seen Gohan as a Super Saiyan 2 with the traits a few chapters before. We've also seen him with the aura even after Cell did significant damage to him, so the lack of sparks can't be because he was weaker.

He still reverted right after. Gohan was depicted as a Super Saiyan for the entire duration of the Manga after he showed the form to Kibito. Goku and Vegeta are drawn as Super Saiyan 2's while Gohan is drawn as a Super Saiyan on following pages. I don't think AT was looking to create a secret message for the readers--I just think he drew Gohan as a Super Saiyan.

Kaboom's argument was that his one example should be applicable to every appearance of the form, and actually considering them on an individual basis shouldn't matter. That's what my response was contradicting. Personally I understand very well that the situations are different and the individual circumstances must be considered. I also agree that it being his first appearance of the form would serve as a motive of why Toriyama would keep the full traits concealed. By following that logic, every Saiyan's initial appearance in the arc as a SSj2 can be deduced to lack those aura traits because he was saving them for a more significant stage in the story, Goku is the only one to actually be stated though:

Spoiler:

At the time, I don't think Toriyama made a great effort to keep the forms separate. They both fell under the umbrella term of "Super Saiyan", even in the character models used for the anime, a clear depiction of SSj2 Gohan is just termed "Super Saiyan Gohan":



So it doesn't appear he made it simple even for those in the anime production. It may be easy for us to distinguish the forms now, but how they were perceived back then likely was more opaque. For Toriyama to share the traits between the forms like he treated the name is not outside the realm of possibility to me.

[TheMightyOzaru]

SSJ2s always have that sharp aura when their aura is showing, there's no inconsistency there. I'm also not sure what the anime has to with the manga, it's very inconsistent with the sparks.

[Mjb1985]

Seems a bit odd for the author to be some consistent for nearly all of the time except this one. I feel people run with Goku's statement way too far.

He's around Cell, shouldn't trump what transformation someone is shown in. That seems to be going too far for my tastes.

[Fionordequester]

Seems a bit odd for the author to be some consistent for nearly all of the time except this one. I feel people run with Goku's statement way too far.

He's around Cell, shouldn't trump what transformation someone is shown in. That seems to be going too far for my tastes.

Well, I'll get to that later. But for now, how would you answer in response to my hypothetical question?

[Mjb1985]

I'm big into always assume full power. If someone says Cell or Freeza or whoever, your initial point of view should automatically the maximum the fighter showed.

[Kaboom]

About the scan with dialogue about Spopovich and Yamu, I think it might be a mistranslation. I don't know exactly what it says in Japanese, but Viz just has Goku talking about how stressed-out the two look. The line I actually remembered was from later, when Spopovich is fighting Videl. In Viz, Goku says he doesn't feel any "chi" from him, but apparently the original Japanese term used was "seiki, written with the kanji for ‘life’ and ‘ki.’"

[Mjb1985]

I don't think any Majin or Kaioshin can be actually sensed.

Yamu and Spopovich may be different but I doubt it. One of the tricky things in the Buu Saga. Ki sensing? Yea lets throw that out the window here. Lol.

[Kaboom]

I don't think any Majin or Kaioshin can be actually sensed.

It does seem to be the trend. Goku can't feel any life/power from Spopovich and Yamu, then makes just a rough guess about Dabra by his attacks and movements, Yakon surprises Goku who thought he looked slow and expected him to be, and not to mention Kaioshin freaking out about Pui-Pui and Yamu just because of their reputation... it all points to using more traditional methods to judge these guys instead of ki-sensing.

[Fionordequester]

I don't think any Majin or Kaioshin can be actually sensed.

It does seem to be the trend. Goku can't feel any life/power from Spopovich and Yamu, then makes just a rough guess about Dabra by his attacks and movements, Yakon surprises Goku who thought he looked slow and expected him to be, and not to mention Kaioshin freaking out about Pui-Pui and Yamu just because of their reputation... it all points to using more traditional methods to judge these guys instead of ki-sensing.

What about Dabura managing to meet their expectations?

[Kaboom]

What about Dabura managing to meet their expectations?

They guessed right?

[Mjb1985]

Yep their expectations were met and even exceeded. Dabura proved to be a guy who would be a beast 7 years ago and even is tougher than first thought due to his magic abilities.

[Son_Gohan]

SSJ2s always have that sharp aura when their aura is showing, there's no inconsistency there. I'm also not sure what the anime has to with the manga, it's very inconsistent with the sparks.

You've confused simple observation for evidence; I've seen SSj2s drawn without sharp auras. If you're only judging by superficial traits then obviously there'd be no inconsistency because no thought is being placed beyond what you see with your eyes, you've automatically dismissed any logical grounds involved in these instances. If you follow logic its easy to recognize why they'd be depicted as SSj2, even ignoring the hair.

During Videl's match, Gohan's transformation surfaced as a result of his rage from watching her being brutalized. He refused to listen to reason and lacked control over his actions, coming close to exposing his identity as the Golden Warrior that he had worked hard to conceal in the process. It shouldn't be hard to see that these are traits of his SSj2 form which were observed back in the Cell Games; compare this to his SSj1 form which he has mastered complete control over, and has demonstrated great restraint, even when his father and friends were being beaten by the Cell Jrs.

When Vegeta is being possessed, he transforms immediately as Babidi attempts to invade his mind. Since this was all part of a plan to allow Babidi to bring his power past its limits, it is logical that he'd be in the form where that limit existed and where his power was at its strongest to resist Babidi's mind control. Later on when Babidi forcibly tries to get Vegeta to follow his commands we see how much of a part his power plays in resisting, as he briefly increases his energy output to continue retaining his frame of mind, enough so that sparks are exhibited:

Spoiler:

The anime model sheet was to show that even those closer to Toriyama were not entirely clear on the matter, and sheds light on how it was perceived at the time. It's nowhere near as simple as people make it seem now.