Dragon Ball and the Bechdel test.

[Hades]

@VyeRo

1) I'm sure statements on Xbox live like "remove kebab from premises!" imply that all gamers have genocidal tendencies towards, and dehumanise Muslims on a regular basis.

2) "let's cherry pick quotes to fit our conclusions" does not meet the rigours of what would be admissible in a court of law. Regardless, this is the exact same logic as "xboxlive statements are indistinguishable from those of mass shooters! Therefore gamers are all ticking time bombs!"

3) And I'm sure there are some quotes like the above "remove kebab!" or "kill all haitians!" which imply that gamers dehumanise everyone else and have genocidal tendencies, to the extent that they cannot be distinguished from quotes by Serbian War Criminals. Basically, it engages in the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy.

[ABED]

Have we seen the same movies? Harold and Kumar was filled with racial jokes/stereotypes. They were most definitely defined by their ethnicity.

About the same as you seen in every movie, but they weren't defined by that, the movie was far more about Harold feeling overworked and underappreciated, and Kumar not having direction in his life. Those things are things people can connect to regardless of what your race is. Stories are about emotional connection, not getting on a pulpit about racial and gender politics. Wanna discuss that, write a non-fiction book.

we don't see ourselves in murderers, we see ourselves in the woman and what she represents.

So instead of writing great characters, we should write representations?

I don't think 'letting the writers write' is a good idea, because change doesn't happen that way. We're in 2014 now. Have you taken a look at the charts I posted? Where is the improvement? Why is there such a unequal balance between women/men and white/POC in the first place? Doesn't this say something about society as a whole? I think it's worth looking into imo.

Because force does wonders for creating harmonious change? What is your solution? Affirmative action for movies?

Why does there have to be a balance between Caucasians and other races? You say women are underrepresented, but it's a simple fact that there are more white people in America than (God I hate the term people of color) other races.

I'm far more concerned that businessmen are damn near always portrayed as villains than an Asian actor not getting a role. Again, Hollywood casting shouldn't be some exercise in representative sampling.

[FrogTrigger]

That's why I like instead of changing Hal Jordan's race, they created another great character, John Stewart.

And then they kinda crap on him and made him be known as the gl who accidentally killed a whole planet bc no one wanted guy Gardner to be guilty

Then have him show up in gl comics to kill other lanterns

After being crippled through the nineties and taken away from his powered up status

Didn't they also have Hal Jordan go nuts and kill people after Coast City was destroyed? It's not limited to black characters.

Because the world is like that?

Yes, the world is like that. Just because people bring .

Yea as part of an editorial fiat in the 90's

However that got retconned as not being him, he was possessed by Parallax, and didn't go insane bc of the guardians being jerks about his city's destruction, so everyone eventually forgave him, lest they be looked at like douches, example batman

John is still the guy who committed straight up genocide out of arrogance and got the stereotypical angry black man introduction, along with any character development he had being scaled back for him and every lantern who isn't Hal Jordan for like the last decade since he came back. He's basically the lantern who kills other lanterns now. Like not even as an executioner, it's just become his new thing to murder comrades

[ABED]

My knowledge of John Stewart is limited to the cartoon, and he was a great character, regardless of how some writers mistreat him. Is JS in the new 52?

[VyeRo]

@Gaffer Tape:

The reason I said this is because I really felt I was doing just that, trying to justify the relevance and importance of diversity in media and trying to justify why we are talking about it in the first place (as you could probably tell by my conversation with Hades). I don't treat my opinions like they are sacred, and I'm truly sorry if it came across that way. I just have trouble understanding why the discussion even needed to get this far.

@ Hades:

The study is meant to be seen as an extension of existing research on sexism. Again, you're talking about other scenarios, whereas I'm staying in the context of this study. If you don't agree with their research method (which btw, is a legit research method and considering they are published in a renowned journal...) take it up with them. I don't know what else to say about this.

@ ABED:

And yet the movies are still filled with racial stereotypes/jokes (aimed at the racists for the funny). If race doesn't matter, why even bring it up?

So instead of writing great characters, we should write representations?

Uh no...? Where did I say that? I think a great well-written character already meets the requirements.

Because force does wonders for creating harmonious change? What is your solution? Affirmative action for movies? ?Why does there have to be a balance between Caucasians and other races You say women are underrepresented, but it's a simple fact that there are more white people in America than (God I hate the term people of color) other races. I'm far more concerned that businessmen are damn near always portrayed as villains than an Asian actor not getting a role. Again, Hollywood casting shouldn't be some exercise in representative sampling.

We just went over this. Because diversity is applauded, it has a positive effect on minorities, I could go on and on. The majority may be white, but it doesn't excuse the exclusion of all other non-white people. The problem with Hollywood is that not only is the default male, straight and white, but roles made for POC (either because the source material asks for it or it fits the story better) are given to someone else >> whitewashing. You don't see a problem with this? Fuck, in the new Prince of Egypt movie they have actual 'brown-face'. I can't even....

* Edited to add this: Report on diversity in films

Some quotes:

- "When media images are rooted primarily in stereotype, inequality is normalized and is more likely to be reinforced over time through our prejudices and practices."
- Women already constitute slightly more than half of the U.S. population, and more than a third of the population is currently minority and the population continues to diversify at a dizzying rate. Indeed, for the first time in 2012 the majority of babies born in the United States were non-white; by 2042 the nation's white population is projected to no longer constitute the majority.

[FrogTrigger]

My knowledge of John Stewart is limited to the cartoon, and he was a great character, regardless of how some writers mistreat him. Is JS in the new 52?

Well that's good, cartoon John is awesome, like the best parts of the character distilled into that show thanks to Dwayne McDuffie (rip)

Yea John is in the new 52 in like green lantern corps, but that's about it.

[Hades]

@vYERO

1) And the Lancet said MMR caused autism

2) I am applying the logic of this study to other scenarios.

[ABED]

And yet the movies are still filled with racial stereotypes/jokes (aimed at the racists for the funny). If race doesn't matter, why even bring it up?

Because race doesn't matter. Humor undercuts things. It's poking fun at them because it doesn't matter, THAT'S the point. The ones who care about it should be undercut. They're the one's that help perpetuate it.

but it doesn't excuse the exclusion of all other non-white people.

They aren't being excluded as much, and at what point will you be satisfied? What percentage of whites vs. non-whites or males vs. females will you be satisfied? Does it have to be in equal numbers?

Are you arguing for equality or non-stereotyping? Why is having an equal number of whites vs. non-whites inherently a good goal?

Put more women in roles, fine, and I do think things have to change about the idea that women leads can't draw, but it can't be done by quota.

I don't see the problem with a guy writing mainly men because that's what he is more comfortable writing about.

Please stop writing "I'm surprised this conversation has gotten this far" when you're helping to perpetuate it.

[VyeRo]

They aren't being excluded as much,

Not as much?

and at what point will you be satisfied? What percentage of whites vs. non-whites or males vs. females will you be satisfied? Does it have to be in equal numbers?

Yes, that's why it's called equality. Especially in the case of males vs. females, because women make up half of the Earth's population. Even though I would be satisfied if the numbers are not 50/50 exactly but a significant improvement from where we are now. I know it's not going to happen immediately but I think any step towards gender/diversity equality is good. The Fast & Furious franchise is an example of movies doing it right in terms of racial diversity.

Are you arguing for equality or non-stereotyping? Why is having an equal number of whites vs. non-whites inherently a good goal?

I argue for both. This article explains it better than I ever could about why racial diversity matters. I'm sure you can find numerous studies on the subject. A quote:

"It is also a pattern that negatively impacts racial minorities outside the film industry. Not seeing people who look like you playing meaty non-stereotypical film roles does a number on self-worth. There is a national market for skin whitening creams and eyelid surgeries. The outcome of the famous doll experiment has not changed much over the last 70 years. The bias toward white European images in children and adults is not a coincidence. There is a need for visible racial diversity in American film. Pretending that overwhelmingly white Hollywood images have no influence on how people of color view themselves is ridiculous. Clearly this is a small slice in the oppression pie, but it’s still an important one.

Put more women in roles, fine, and I do think things have to change about the idea that women leads can't draw, but it can't be done by quota.

Then we finally agree on something. I'm not a supporter of quotas, because what you'll see happen is female characters without substance, or the 'token' one.

I don't see the problem with a guy writing mainly men because that's what he is more comfortable writing about.

Rocketman went into this in more detail several pages ago.

Please stop writing "I'm surprised this conversation has gotten this far" when you're helping to perpetuate it.

Well, I AM surprised it has gotten this far tbh, but it doesn't mean I'm going to stay silent when I have something to say about it.

[ABED]

Stop showing me charts. I get it, more whites are in films and win awards, but that doesn't necessarily mean the academy is saying "screw you, you're black, you don't win an award" and I didn't say it was perfect, just that it's getting better. America is predominantly white, that's just fact! Did you even look below the chart? There have been attempts made.

Too bad Fast and Furious films are terrible. Power Rangers has done more for diversity. Lethal Weapon is a far better example of diversity. Murtaugh's race wasn't an issue, except in the second one which was about some racist a-holes starting some crap.

Yes, that's why it's called equality.

And that's necessarily a good thing? Why?

Pointing at an article which is clearly an opinion piece does nothing to change my perspective. It speaks about how people see themselves as their color and not seeing "themselves" has a negative impact as if this is axiomatically true. It's not any different than the view that economic class determines our ideas.

Rocketman went into this in more detail several pages ago.

And I disagree with him, he seems to think there should be, or that we should think in collectivist terms, not what is best for the story.

[Hades]

"oppression pie". I'm sure a Turkish person or a Guantanamo inmate will appreciate how oppressed people are.

[VyeRo]

Stop showing me charts. I get it, more whites are in films and win awards, but that doesn't necessarily mean the academy is saying "screw you, you're black, you don't win an award" and I didn't say it was perfect, just that it's getting better. America is predominantly white, that's just fact! Did you even look below the chart? There have been attempts made.

Your exact words were:"they aren't excluded as much". I showed you the opposite is true by showing you those charts. We are arguing in circles right now.
Even if the Academy is not saying that, than why does it happen? What's the reasoning behind it? Is it racism? Something else? It's not only applicable to awards, but to acting gigs, jobs behind-the-scenes etc. And I sure hope it's getting better and sure there have been attempts made but there's still room for improvement. And sure America is predominantly white, so you could argue that there will always be more white people in media than minorities. What about females, though? They make up half of the population of Earth and more than half of the population in the U.S. There is no excuse for their poor representation in movies.

Too bad Fast and Furious films are terrible. Power Rangers has done more for diversity. Lethal Weapon is a far better example of diversity. Murtaugh's race wasn't an issue, except in the second one which was about some racist a-holes starting some crap.

Doesn't matter, the fact is that it's still a racially diverse movie, despite your opinion that the movies are terrible. Power Rangers? That series is one of the most racially stereotyped series I've ever seen (even though it was my everything as a kid). And F&F is just an example, I'm sure there are others.

And that's necessarily a good thing? Why?

In what world is equality not a good thing? People deserve to be treated like equals and have equal opportunities, why should it be any different in movies or behind-the-scenes?

Pointing at an article which is clearly an opinion piece does nothing to change my perspective.

Which I why I said that this piece said it better than I could (my opinion) and that there is actual research to back this up. Nevertheless, whatever was said in the piece (skin-bleaching creams, bias towards white Europeans, empowerment through characters) still holds.

[soulnova]

Strictly talking about DBZ... most people I know would have liked more female active characters. Heck, I always wanted a female Ssj.

Now, speaking from a storytelling writing point... our world's population is 50/50. I don't understand how is it even possible for someone to not write dialogue for half the population on a setting based on our world (war stories could get a "pass").

[ABED]

Your exact words were:"they aren't excluded as much".

Add, "as they used to be".

That series is one of the most racially stereotyped series I've ever seen

How so?

In what world is equality not a good thing? People deserve to be treated like equals and have equal opportunities,

You are dropping context. Equality in what way? There's equality before the law, in which case, I agree, but people shouldn't be treated equally. If someone's a douche bag, I'll treat them accordingly. If I don't know someone, I'll treat them with respect until proven otherwise. Equal opportunities? How is that even possible? Should I be given equal opportunities as a person with better credentials?

Equality isn't good in a world where people have different interests, levels of drive, and abilities. People with more drive will get more opportunities than those that sit on hands waiting for things to happen. Fortune favors the bold.

Soulnova, dragon ball isn't based on our world

[soulnova]

Soulnova, dragon ball isn't based on our world

Perhaps I didn't made it clear enough.

Strictly talking about DBZ... most people I know would have liked more female active characters. Heck, I always wanted a female Ssj.

...Then talking about other stories:

Now, speaking from a storytelling writing point... our world's population is 50/50. I don't understand how is it even possible for someone to not write dialogue for half the population on a setting based on our world (war stories could get a "pass").

[ABED]

Gotcha, when you say you don't understand do you mean that people should be able to write for half the population, or that you don't understand why they don't? I talk to women all the time, and I don't know if I could write convincingly from a woman's perspective.

[soulnova]

Gotcha, when you say you don't understand do you mean that people should be able to write for half the population, or that you don't understand why they don't? I talk to women all the time, and I don't know if I could write convincingly from a woman's perspective.

I guess never had a problem writing from male or female perspective. They have different goals and priorities, yes, obviously, but knowing your character's motivations and where they come from should be enough for you to know what they want to say and how they say it. They are people.

[ABED]

Gotcha, when you say you don't understand do you mean that people should be able to write for half the population, or that you don't understand why they don't? I talk to women all the time, and I don't know if I could write convincingly from a woman's perspective.

I guess never had a problem writing from male or female perspective. They have different goals and priorities, yes, obviously, but knowing your character's motivations and where they come from should be enough for you to know what they want to say and how they say it. They are people.

I get that people are people but there are differences not merely in motivation.

[soulnova]

Gotcha, when you say you don't understand do you mean that people should be able to write for half the population, or that you don't understand why they don't? I talk to women all the time, and I don't know if I could write convincingly from a woman's perspective.

I guess never had a problem writing from male or female perspective. They have different goals and priorities, yes, obviously, but knowing your character's motivations and where they come from should be enough for you to know what they want to say and how they say it. They are people.

I get that people are people but there are differences not merely in motivation.

They "being different" has nothing to do with writing dialogue. Every person is different. Every *character* is different. Saying one can't write a character because they are "different", would mean a writer can't write anyone besides himself/herself. Is not like you are going to place a dozen versions of yourself in a story...

[ABED]

Not what I meant, women do have a different perspective than men.