If a different mangaka wrote Dragon Ball

[SaiyanZ]

I guess what bugs me about your comparison is, if anything, YYH is thematically the anti-Dragonball (and in a lot of ways the anti-shonen), and Yusuke's similarities to Goku that you point out are, at best, incredibly superficial and don't really paint the context both exist in in an accurate light.

Not really. The similarities go beyond just the characters

[ImmaDeker]

I guess what bugs me about your comparison is, if anything, YYH is thematically the anti-Dragonball (and in a lot of ways the anti-shonen), and Yusuke's similarities to Goku that you point out are, at best, incredibly superficial and don't really paint the context both exist in in an accurate light.

Not really. The similarities go beyond just the characters

Right, but they're all superficial surface similarities.

Dragonball is a show where death has no consequence and violence for its own sake is the key to happiness, right down to Goku's version of Sun Wukong's ascension to Buddha giving him super duper powers and everyone you punch in the dick is your best friend. All of Goku's enemies are just people who punch bigger, because Goku is about punching the biggest.

Yu Yu Hakusho is a show that, from day one, shows death has all the consequence in the world and that violence for its own sake just means you're incredibly empty, with Yusuke's tapping into his innate demonic nature only showing him how little of a purpose he actually has. Yusuke's status as a boy from a broken home who finds family in a group of friends reaches its logical extreme as discovering his true heritage and pursuing it only makes him emptier. All of Yusuke's enemies (or the "major" enemies) are surrogate father figures reflecting who Yusuke could become if he keeps up the way he is or certain ways he views the world as a child.

They are completely opposite sides of the spectrum and thinking they're so insanely similar requires ripping a bunch of surface elements from their context and only presenting an argument with technical accuracy, not actual accuracy used by people wanting to make a thoughtful point.

[SaiyanZ]

I guess what bugs me about your comparison is, if anything, YYH is thematically the anti-Dragonball (and in a lot of ways the anti-shonen), and Yusuke's similarities to Goku that you point out are, at best, incredibly superficial and don't really paint the context both exist in in an accurate light.

Not really. The similarities go beyond just the characters

Right, but they're all superficial surface similarities.

Dragonball is a show where death has no consequence and violence for its own sake is the key to happiness, right down to Goku's version of Sun Wukong's ascension to Buddha giving him super duper powers and everyone you punch in the dick is your best friend. All of Goku's enemies are just people who punch bigger, because Goku is about punching the biggest.

Yu Yu Hakusho is a show that, from day one, shows death has all the consequence in the world and that violence for its own sake just means you're incredibly empty, with Yusuke's tapping into his innate demonic nature only showing him how little of a purpose he actually has. Yusuke's status as a boy from a broken home who finds family in a group of friends reaches its logical extreme as discovering his true heritage and pursuing it only makes him emptier. All of Yusuke's enemies (or the "major" enemies) are surrogate father figures reflecting who Yusuke could become if he keeps up the way he is or certain ways he views the world as a child.

They are completely opposite sides of the spectrum and thinking they're so insanely similar requires ripping a bunch of surface elements from their context and only presenting an argument with technical accuracy, not actual accuracy used by people wanting to make a thoughtful point.

Death in YuYu Hakusho has the same amount of conseuqence as in Dragon Ball since one can be revived. I wouldn't say death has NO consequence, a la Future Trunks's timeline or Goku choosing to stay dead for 7 years for Earth's safety or Vegeta not being allowed to keep his body after his sacrifice against Buu, but I understand your point. Yusuke's love for fighting never goes away. He loves to fight and likes to take the next challenge, but as you said, what he learns from pursuing more power is much different than what Goku learns. It's not really opposite to Dragon Ball in anyway except in the sense that it tackles more mature themes. Yusuke pursuing his demon heritage does NOT make him emptier, that's the complete opposite of the purpose of the final arc. He goes to Demon World to FIND himself by learning about it, so what you just said is plain wrong. YYH is not anti-DB in any which way or form, at all.

[Saiga]

Death having consequence in YYH? I can't remember a single good character who died and didn't come back to life. Even Genkai was brought back from the dead. Off-screen. Then the final arc shows you can revive the dead by sticking them in a healing pod at any time, possibly the most convenient resurrection I've seen in a manga/anime series.

[Kid Buu]

Death having consequence in YYH? I can't remember a single good character who died and didn't come back to life. Even Genkai was brought back from the dead. Off-screen. Then the final arc shows you can revive the dead by sticking them in a healing pod at any time, possibly the most convenient resurrection I've seen in a manga/anime series.

Not to mention the freaking "death" scene in almost every battle in the Dark Tournament and against Sensui, you are not fooling me I knew from the beginning nothing will happen to the main characters. There's absolutely no tension and as a result the battles become meaningless and thus not enjoyable.

That said, Togashi is actually putting good artwork into the latest HxH chapters, so maybe a Togashi DB wouldn't be terribly drawn after all.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Death having consequence in YYH? I can't remember a single good character who died and didn't come back to life. Even Genkai was brought back from the dead. Off-screen. Then the final arc shows you can revive the dead by sticking them in a healing pod at any time, possibly the most convenient resurrection I've seen in a manga/anime series.

The Genkai revival was pretty pointless, yeah. Granted, in the manga at least, it allows her to have an opposite but equally compelling final moment.

I don't remember this 'healing pod' thing though...where was that?

[Kid Buu]

I don't remember that either, butt there is one more arc in the manga IIRC, so maybe Saiga is talking about that?

[Gyt Kaliba]

I don't remember that either, butt there is one more arc in the manga IIRC, so maybe Saiga is talking about that?

Well, yes and no. There's some stuff towards the end of the manga that didn't get put into the anime (same with some stuff at the beginning of the manga), but I wouldn't really call it another arc. It's more just some closure stuff, but I still don't remember any 'bring-people-back-to-life' pod in that.

[ImmaDeker]

The Genkai revival was pretty pointless, yeah.

Define pointless.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Well, it underminded all of the emotional depth that had built up for the Yusuke/Toguro fight, which had ended on a great (albeit bittersweet) note. And once she was brought back, she really didn't get too many more chances to shine, sadly.

[Doctor.]

Well, it underminded all of the emotional depth that had built up for the Yusuke/Toguro fight, which had ended on a great (albeit bittersweet) note. And once she was brought back, she really didn't get too many more chances to shine, sadly.

Reminds me of a certain old character who died in a certain arc in a certain manga that people on this forum really enjoy.

[Kid Buu]

Well, it underminded all of the emotional depth that had built up for the Yusuke/Toguro fight, which had ended on a great (albeit bittersweet) note. And once she was brought back, she really didn't get too many more chances to shine, sadly.

Reminds me of a certain old character who died in a certain arc in a certain manga that people on this forum really enjoy.

Daimao Arc Roshi?

[ImmaDeker]

Well, it underminded all of the emotional depth that had built up for the Yusuke/Toguro fight, which had ended on a great (albeit bittersweet) note. And once she was brought back, she really didn't get too many more chances to shine, sadly.

Toguro's story in the Dark Tournament was about running from death and doing ANYTHING to never die. After battling Yusuke, he gave Yusuke and the woman he loved both the gift of a fulfilling life rather than being a murderer who ruined their lives just for a battle.

Genkai's revival means Yusuke was instrumental in Toguro finally realizing he didn't have to be Kairen. He revived Genkai to give a surrogate family life, not have it taken away like his.

That was the point. Toguro had lived in death and only by reaching contentment and having his philosophies disproven did he finally make the ultimate sacrifice and gave others his vitality and life.

[Doctor.]

Well, it underminded all of the emotional depth that had built up for the Yusuke/Toguro fight, which had ended on a great (albeit bittersweet) note. And once she was brought back, she really didn't get too many more chances to shine, sadly.

Reminds me of a certain old character who died in a certain arc in a certain manga that people on this forum really enjoy.

Daimao Arc Roshi?

Pretty much.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Reminds me of a certain old character who died in a certain arc in a certain manga that people on this forum really enjoy.

Daimao Arc Roshi?

Pretty much.

Have to admit, I didn't think of that. That said though, I dunno...Roshi was almost always a comedic character, even when he happened to get to kick serious butt early on, so he at least had the comedy schtick to fall back on when he came back. It still feels less out of place to bring him back than it does Genkai, at least to me.

Toguro's story in the Dark Tournament was about running from death and doing ANYTHING to never die. After battling Yusuke, he gave Yusuke and the woman he loved both the gift of a fulfilling life rather than being a murderer who ruined their lives just for a battle.

Genkai's revival means Yusuke was instrumental in Toguro finally realizing he didn't have to be Kairen. He revived Genkai to give a surrogate family life, not have it taken away like his.

That was the point. Toguro had lived in death and only by reaching contentment and having his philosophies disproven did he finally make the ultimate sacrifice and gave others his vitality and life.

Uh...since when was it Toguro that brought Genkai back? I admit I've never watched the show in Japanese, but I have read the manga (admittedly it's been some time though), but it was my understanding that Koenma brought Genkai back, as a 'fulfillment of what Yusuke's Dark Tournament winning wish would obviously be'. All of the rest that you bring up doesn't quite seem to gel with what I remember happening either. Toguro did do everything he could to avoid death, yes, but the whole point of making Yusuke come to the Dark Tournament for him, was so that he could finally die. He wanted Yusuke to kill him, just like he wanted no preferential treatment from the after life, despite everything he had done and what he'd become not being entirely his fault.

...Anyway, Dragon Ball, different mangaka writing it. Trying to think of an author that I somewhat like that hasn't been analyzed much yet...what about the man himself, Osamu Tezuka?

[Kid Buu]

To be honest, I wouldn't have minded if Master Roshi stayed dead ala Cell Games Goku, not sure if I'd keep Kuririn dead though. I still think Chaozu shouldn't have died and should have contributed to Daimao's defeat like Tenshinhan did.

[ImmaDeker]

'fulfillment of what Yusuke's Dark Tournament winning wish would obviously be'.

And in exchange Toguro went to limbo.

[Gyt Kaliba]

'fulfillment of what Yusuke's Dark Tournament winning wish would obviously be'.

And in exchange Toguro went to limbo.

Again, I do not remember that being said, at all. Toguro was offered a chance for a lesser punishment by Koenma, since he wasn't 100% responsible for the path he had taken in life. Toguro refused however, feeling he deserved whatever was coming his way. There was nothing to suggest that Koenma only brought Genkai back due to anything Toguro did. Other than Toguro being the person that killed her, the two events aren't even related.

[ABED]

Toguro went beyond just not wanting preferential treatment, he wanted to punish himself. And no, Toguro going to the worst Hell had nothing to do with Genkai's resurrection. She was brought back because that's what Yusuke's wish would have been had the tournament committee been killed. Toguro HATED himself. He's a web of contradictions. On one hand he claims that after Kairen killed his pupils he longed to have that sort of power, however it's intimated that his true reasons for becoming a demon was to punish himself by becoming something he hated.

Bringing Genkai back was all part of his plan. He didn't hate Genkai, he just needed to kill someone to bring out Yusuke's power. Since that wasn't quite enough, notice that he fakes Kuwabara's. As horrible as he is, he has a conscience.

[ImmaDeker]

'fulfillment of what Yusuke's Dark Tournament winning wish would obviously be'.

And in exchange Toguro went to limbo.

Again, I do not remember that being said, at all. Toguro was offered a chance for a lesser punishment by Koenma, since he wasn't 100% responsible for the path he had taken in life. Toguro refused however, feeling he deserved whatever was coming his way. There was nothing to suggest that Koenma only brought Genkai back due to anything Toguro did. Other than Toguro being the person that killed her, the two events aren't even related.

Thematic exchange, symbolic exchange. Toguro succumbs to his own death and punishment and in return Genkai is given life, ala a sequence of juxtaposed events. I was not totally clear.

Genkai's revival wasn't pointless. Structurally, and on the heels of Toguro's motivation, death, and obsession with his fear of death, Genkai returns as a celebration of life Toguro threw away. It was a thematic point, not a practical "plot resolution" point.