Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

[Kamiccolo9]

My main problem with the movies is that these give Toriyama a perfectly legit opportunity to refresh the series and go into new directions and yet it's still the Super Saiyan show and if you don't have golden hair then you still don't matter. Hell, even worse, if you're not Goku or Vegeta than you don't really matter anymore.

The entire series was everyone gets pummeled and then stands around and cheers for Goku/Gohan/Vegeta/insert Saiyan character here and yet here we are with these movies and it's the same fucking thing. I mean you have Whis now who trained Bills and provides a perfectly acceptable chance to give lesser characters a chance to catch up and yet who gets this awesome opportunity to advance their level of relevancy? Once again, just Goku and Vegeta. Just the Saiyans.

Sadly I get the feeling that even if they did give the other characters a chance to catch up, it wouldn't please a lot of fans. There's a good number of people (either that or just a few extremely vocal ones) who pretty much dismiss any character that's weaker as 'useless' and would never accept anything that allowed them to catch up.

So true. On this very forum, I have been in an argument where one reply I got was "You cannot make Tenshinhan relevant without invalidating Goku and Vegeta." Some people can just not wrap their minds around anything more unorthodox than "strong guy gets beat up by stronger guy, then gets stronger than the previously stronger guy and beats him because he's now stronger."

[i'mfuckingevil]

Dragon Ball takes conventional ideas and spins them on their head. The lead character is super strong, but is (initially)a scrawny runt. A handsome, combat-ready desert bandit can't talk to women. A hundreds-year-old martial arts master is actually a pervert. The idea that the concept of a "god", this being that looms over all others, is constantly tossed aside whenever a greater power arrives, fits right in. Dragon Ball is the business of "devaluing" everything.

The whole concept of the "god" thing was really underplayed until BOG was released. And then everyone threw the term "god" around like it means nothing. And it isn't limited to DB, fucking Kanye West and Eminem did it too.

[Kamiccolo9]

Dragon Ball takes conventional ideas and spins them on their head. The lead character is super strong, but is (initially)a scrawny runt. A handsome, combat-ready desert bandit can't talk to women. A hundreds-year-old martial arts master is actually a pervert. The idea that the concept of a "god", this being that looms over all others, is constantly tossed aside whenever a greater power arrives, fits right in. Dragon Ball is the business of "devaluing" everything.

The whole concept of the "god" thing was really underplayed until BOG was released. And then everyone threw the term "god" around like it means nothing. And it isn't limited to DB, fucking Kanye West and Eminem did it too.

You are taking an extremely narrow view of the word "god."

[i'mfuckingevil]

Dragon Ball takes conventional ideas and spins them on their head. The lead character is super strong, but is (initially)a scrawny runt. A handsome, combat-ready desert bandit can't talk to women. A hundreds-year-old martial arts master is actually a pervert. The idea that the concept of a "god", this being that looms over all others, is constantly tossed aside whenever a greater power arrives, fits right in. Dragon Ball is the business of "devaluing" everything.

The whole concept of the "god" thing was really underplayed until BOG was released. And then everyone threw the term "god" around like it means nothing. And it isn't limited to DB, fucking Kanye West and Eminem did it too.

You are taking an extremely narrow view of the word "god."

perhaps because to me "god" is supposed to mean something eternal, omnipotent, allpowerful and so incomprehensible that it cannot even be compared to incomparability.

but popular culture likes to toy with the term and use it to mean the best at anything, or superlative, if you will.

[Kamiccolo9]

perhaps because to me "god" is supposed to mean something eternal, omnipotent, allpowerful and so incomprehensible that it cannot even be compared to incomparability.

but popular culture likes to toy with the term and use it to mean the best at anything, or superlative, if you will.

It's not popular culture that's done that; it's history. You are applying the western, Judeo-Christian-Islamic concept of God to a Japanese comic book. The Japanese gods were nothing like the God in the Bible or Qur'an.

[Thouser]

The whole concept of the "god" thing was really underplayed until BOG was released. And then everyone threw the term "god" around like it means nothing. And it isn't limited to DB, fucking Kanye West and Eminem did it too.

It's not really underplayed (except in the English dub and subtitles). After Piccolo Daimao is defeated, Goku is flat-out told that in order to bring back Shenlong, he has to go to God (神) himself. When he tells his friends what he has to do, their reaction is basically "That's crazy, Goku. There's no such thing as God."

Even Shenlong (神龍) is a god, going by his name. Just because they didn't use the English "god" (ゴッド) until Battle of Gods, doesn't mean it was "underplayed."

[i'mfuckingevil]

perhaps because to me "god" is supposed to mean something eternal, omnipotent, allpowerful and so incomprehensible that it cannot even be compared to incomparability.

but popular culture likes to toy with the term and use it to mean the best at anything, or superlative, if you will.

It's not popular culture that's done that; it's history. You are applying the western, Judeo-Christian-Islamic concept of God to a Japanese comic book. The Japanese gods were nothing like the God in the Bible or Qur'an.

forget anything about organized religion for a second, even though yes I get the fact that those Abrahamic religions teach what I just said.

To me, the true concept of a God is the oneness that I described, and someone doesn't have to be a part of organized religion to believe that. Perhaps my assessment was wrong in trying to apply my thoughts onto this Japanese comic book like you said, but with me not liking all the movies that let up to BOG, the release of BOG didn't help. Hence, me creating this thread.

[Kamiccolo9]

perhaps because to me "god" is supposed to mean something eternal, omnipotent, allpowerful and so incomprehensible that it cannot even be compared to incomparability.

but popular culture likes to toy with the term and use it to mean the best at anything, or superlative, if you will.

It's not popular culture that's done that; it's history. You are applying the western, Judeo-Christian-Islamic concept of God to a Japanese comic book. The Japanese gods were nothing like the God in the Bible or Qur'an.

forget anything about organized religion for a second, even though yes I get the fact that those Abrahamic religions teach what I just said.

To me, the true concept of a God is the oneness that I described, and someone doesn't have to be a part of organized religion to believe that. Perhaps my assessment was wrong in trying to apply my thoughts onto this Japanese comic book like you said, but with me not liking all the movies that let up to BOG, the release of BOG didn't help. Hence, me creating this thread.

I'm not talking about organized religion. The concept of God you are referring to is totally different than what was present in essentially every culture that wasn't one of those 3 religions.

I mean, when you read the Odyssey or the Iliad, do you take issue with the characters referring to Zeus as a god? Of course not, because that's what those characters' concept of a god is. Same with the Egyptian, Norse, Shinto, Native American, Incan, Mayan, Aztec, etc deities.

Japan, having never been a deeply monotheistic country, is not going to produce many writers who work according to a monotheistic mindset.

[i'mfuckingevil]

I'm not talking about organized religion. The concept of God you are referring to is totally different than what was present in essentially every culture that wasn't one of those 3 religions.

I mean, when you read the Odyssey or the Iliad, do you take issue with the characters referring to Zeus as a god? Of course not, because that's what those characters' concept of a god is. Same with the Egyptian, Norse, Shinto, Native American, Incan, Mayan, Aztec, etc deities.

Japan, having never been a deeply monotheistic country, is not going to produce many writers who work according to a monotheistic mindset.

I suppose not, but with Dragon Ball becoming the franchise that it is, you'd think A.T or Toei or someone in charge would think that some fans would be alienated due to their toying with the word "god".

[Zephyr]

Toriyama hardly comes off as the type of individual to worry about "alienating" fans overseas.

[TheGmGoken]

i'mfuckingevil I'm not understanding your problem. Care to explain more? I thought it's very obvious what a God is in Dragonball. It was actually explained pretty darn good.

[i'mfuckingevil]

i'mfuckingevil I'm not understanding your problem. Care to explain more? I thought it's very obvious what a God is in Dragonball. It was actually explained pretty darn good.

I've realized for myself that the issue is the new SSJ transformation. I'd rather the genetic potential of saiyan transformations cap at SSJ3. And adding the word "god" to the mix didn't make things any better in my opinion, it made things so much worse for me at least. So if one day another even more powerful evil alien in the universe comes along and Goku has to fight them, are they gonna come up with ANOTHER stupid SSJ transformation even greater than SSJ "god"? Will there just be an unlimited supply of SSJ transformations? That ruins what a Super Saiyan is supposed to be. It ruins the specialty of the transformation.

[Gyt Kaliba]

While I agree that I don't want to see a huge burst of new forms again (and I doubt we will since Toriyama seems to be kind of moving away from transformations now), let's be honest - Super Saiyan stopped being this super amazing thing almost immediately after it was introduced. Sure, Trunks showing up as one was an amazing twist (hell, that's what got me into the series), but there was only supposed to be one Super Saiyan every 1,000 or so years...so that kind of went out the window. You could hand wave it as him being the only one in his time period to have it...until we find out that Gohan had it too, as did Vegeta, and as do both of their main timeline counterparts. And then they all find forms beyond that. And Gohan takes it even further beyond that. And then two seven year old kids get it with no effort. And then another form beyond even that is discovered...

Super Saiyan was already trampled to death as a concept in the series itself, let's not forget that.

[Kamiccolo9]

Vegeta getting it over a temper tantrum kinda ruined it for me.

"I don't care anymore! Waaaaaah!"

[TheGmGoken]

Vegeta getting it over a temper tantrum kinda ruined it for me.

"I don't care anymore! Waaaaaah!"

Wasn't that anime only though?

[Kamiccolo9]

Vegeta getting it over a temper tantrum kinda ruined it for me.

"I don't care anymore! Waaaaaah!"

Wasn't that anime only though?

Does it really matter? That's the way I saw it first.

[TheGmGoken]

Vegeta getting it over a temper tantrum kinda ruined it for me.

"I don't care anymore! Waaaaaah!"

Wasn't that anime only though?

Does it really matter? That's the way I saw it first.

Oh sorry. Didn't know if you were serious or making a joke. My apologies. Didn't know you were using what you saw first.

[hleV]

Vegeta getting it over a temper tantrum kinda ruined it for me.

"I don't care anymore! Waaaaaah!"

Wasn't that anime only though?

Does it really matter? That's the way I saw it first.

Why would it remained ruined when you know it never really happened according to the original author? It's just made up. There's only what Vegeta said about his transformation after showing up for the androids.

[TheGmGoken]

ay I saw it first.

Why would it remained ruined when you know it never really happened according to the original author?

I'm sure he meant growing up and watching the series for the first time.

[Kamiccolo9]

Why would it remained ruined when you know it never really happened according to the original author? It's just made up. There's only what Vegeta said about his transformation after showing up for the androids.

Because I don't view the anime as some distinct entity to be ignored whenever contemplating the franchise? Because I prefer the anime to the manga? I'm not really sure what the point of your question is.