So what exactly is this SSGSS?

[Hitiro]

Actually, Super Bebi never says he has the greatest Saiya power ever, only that he now has obtained the greatest of Saiya power.

But he had already obtained the greatest Saiya power before his transformation, so it would only make sense if he is talking about every Saiyan that exists now & before, and Goku even calls him the strongest in the universe. Whis was the strongest of the universe before Baby.

It's debatable whether he had already obtained the greatest Saiya power before his transformation. SSJ3 Goku hardly managed to demonstrate his power as all he got in were two attacks before reverting. And most likely Goku was pulling his first punch because he didn't want to hurt Vegeta. It's highly possible that both Goku and Bebi were pretty equal and Bebi could only claim to have the greatest Saiya power after he left Goku in the dust with the transformation to Super Bebi. I mean after he gets his tail back he demonstrated he made Super Bebi 2 sweat while he was fighting as a SSJ3. And his power was said not to have increased.

And you can't even use SSJGSSJ Vegeta, Golden Freeza, Beerus or Whis because we've already discussed why BoG and FnF can't fit into GT.

Whether they fit or not, the official stance so far is that they take place in the same continuity.

Where exactly does it say they take place in the same continuity exactly?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Been over this already. They clearly weren't equal. Goku literally says they're Vegeta-Baby's more than an even match for him, Goku's hits do no damage while Vegeta-Baby's hits do, and Vegeta-Baby is confident in taking Goku on right after Goku transforms. Saying Goku pulled his punches is conjecture and grasping.

[Hitiro]

Been over this already. They clearly weren't equal. Goku literally says they're Vegeta-Baby's more than an even match for him, Goku's hits do no damage while Vegeta-Baby's hits do, and Vegeta-Baby is confident in taking Goku on right after Goku transforms. Saying Goku pulled his punches is conjecture and grasping.

Goku hit once and he only thought that way after Bebi Vegeta took the hit. So that blow was likely held back. Bebi Vegeta dodged the next blow. If Goku really couldn't do damage on him there is no reason for Bebi Vegeta to dodge. After that Goku reverted and obviously Goku is going to lose then.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Been over this already. They clearly weren't equal. Goku literally says they're Vegeta-Baby's more than an even match for him, Goku's hits do no damage while Vegeta-Baby's hits do, and Vegeta-Baby is confident in taking Goku on right after Goku transforms. Saying Goku pulled his punches is conjecture and grasping.

Goku hit once and he only thought that way after Bebi Vegeta took the hit. So that blow was likely held back. Bebi Vegeta dodged the next blow. If Goku really couldn't do damage on him there is no reason for Bebi Vegeta to dodge. After that Goku reverted and obviously Goku is going to lose then.

That's not proof he was holding back. Piccolo was surprised his blast did nothing to Raditz. Piccolo ~ Raditz? And even if the hit was held back, Goku's statement still stands.

The Cell Junior dodged Krillin, if Krillin couldn't do damage there would be no reason for the Cell Junior to dodge?

Vegeta-Baby was confident when Goku first transformed, not when he reverted.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Where exactly does it say they take place in the same continuity exactly?

BoG promo stuff state that BoG takes place before GT, Chozenshuu #4 has a timeline with both BoG & GT in it, with no indication that any of them take place in a different timeline, and XenoVerse covers both BoG & GT (even though GT is an alternative timeline, nothing says that BoG didn't happen in that timeline, and the character interactions imply that it did happen).

[Hitiro]

That's not proof he was holding back. Piccolo was surprised his blast did nothing to Raditz. Piccolo ~ Raditz? And even if the hit was held back, Goku's statement still stands.

The difference is Goku would pull his punch if he thought he was going to hurt his friend. Goku isn't going to throw a punch at 100% and launch Vegeta's head into the atmosphere. Piccolo at that point would have thrown the attack at 100% no matter what.

The Cell Junior dodged Krillin, if Krillin couldn't do damage there would be no reason for the Cell Junior to dodge?

We never see this happen in the manga. So there is hardly any point in using this. Otherwise any filler is acceptable. If that's the case then Mr. Popo > SSJ children > Base Saiyan's.

Vegeta-Baby was confident when Goku first transformed, not when he reverted.

Your point? Vegeta himself has been confident against numerous villains that have exceeded him in power by massive margins. Freeza, Androids, Goku, Cell, Boo initially.

Where exactly does it say they take place in the same continuity exactly?

BoG promo stuff state that BoG takes place before GT, Chozenshuu #4 has a timeline with both BoG & GT in it, with no indication that any of them take place in a different timeline, and XenoVerse covers both BoG & GT (even though GT is an alternative timeline, nothing says that BoG didn't happen in that timeline, and the character interactions imply that it did happen).

It taking place before GT is not an assertion that it takes place in the same timeline. I can say that the Boo arc takes place before Future Trunks' time. And it does. That doesn't mean they are part of the same timeline or universe. The Chozenshuu #4 doesn't cover anything else apart from adding the what happens with the several Trunks Timelines. We don't get any reason to separate the GT timeline stuff from the Dragon Ball Z stuff so why separate it? If there were a reason to diverge the timeline like there was for Trunks then they would have included it probably. They also save on pages doing it this way.

And there is no point in pulling in Xenoverse into this. Because the game can do what it likes. Dragon Ball Z: Shin Budokai 2 shows a timeline for Future Trunks where Boo shows up and Future Trunks pulls in Goku and the others from the Z timeline. But nobody considers this to have happened.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

The difference is Goku would pull his punch if he thought he was going to hurt his friend. Goku isn't going to throw a punch at 100% and launch Vegeta's head into the atmosphere. Piccolo at that point would have thrown the attack at 100% no matter what.

Doesn't matter. Goku knew he needed Super Saiyan 3. So he can compare himself to Vegeta-Baby, yet doesn't give any indication of not needing to be at 100%

As already mentioned, even if the hit was held back, Goku's statement still stands.

We never see this happen in the manga. So there is hardly any point in using this. Otherwise any filler is acceptable. If that's the case then Mr. Popo > SSJ children > Base Saiyan's.

We don't?

Spoiler:

Your point? Vegeta himself has been confident against numerous villains that have exceeded him in power by massive margins. Freeza, Androids, Goku, Cell, Boo initially.

Except this is Baby. Only Vegeta's body, not mind.

[Hitiro]

The difference is Goku would pull his punch if he thought he was going to hurt his friend. Goku isn't going to throw a punch at 100% and launch Vegeta's head into the atmosphere. Piccolo at that point would have thrown the attack at 100% no matter what.

Doesn't matter. Goku knew he needed Super Saiyan 3. So he can compare himself to Vegeta-Baby, yet doesn't give any indication of not needing to be at 100%

All that that could mean is he thought he needed at least the bare minimum above SSJ2 to take care of Bebi Vegeta. Not the full 100% of SSJ3.

As already mentioned, even if the hit was held back, Goku's statement still stands.

More than even still implies some level equality. So even if Goku's statement still stands it may be the case that they are barely even with Goku coming out on the losing end. And if so Bebi Vegeta can still only claim to have the greatest Saiya power when he truly goes past being more than even with Goku and actually be stronger than him. If Bebi Vegeta was literally much stronger than him then Goku would have just come out and said it.

We never see this happen in the manga. So there is hardly any point in using this. Otherwise any filler is acceptable. If that's the case then Mr. Popo > SSJ children > Base Saiyan's.

We don't?

Spoiler:

This is my bad, I don't recall this moment. It's been a while since I've read the manga. I thought the only shots of Cell Jr's we see were with Vegeta and then with them all standing there after Gohan transformed. The difference is pretty clear between Kuririn and the Cell Jr though. Not so much with Goku and Bebi Vegeta. Like I said, SSJ3 Goku had Super Bebi 2 sweating during their second fight and Super Bebi 2 was clearly having issues defending against his moves. So how is it that Super Bebi 2 >= SSJ3 Goku < Super Bebi 1?

Your point? Vegeta himself has been confident against numerous villains that have exceeded him in power by massive margins. Freeza, Androids, Goku, Cell, Boo initially.

Except this is Baby. Only Vegeta's body, not mind.

You think Vegeta is the only person who has been confident in his power despite being left behind in the dust by their opponent? What about Freeza against SSJ Goku? What about Cell against SSJ2 Gohan? What about Boohan against SSJ Vegetto? Bebi also was confident he could overtake Trunks the first time he attempted but then get chucked out because he overestimated the Saiya power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I can say that the Boo arc takes place before Future Trunks' time. And it does.

No, it doesn't.

The Chozenshuu #4 doesn't cover anything else apart from adding the what happens with the several Trunks Timelines. We don't get any reason to separate the GT timeline stuff from the Dragon Ball Z stuff so why separate it? If there were a reason to diverge the timeline like there was for Trunks then they would have included it probably. They also save on pages doing it this way.

Maybe my English are bad, but I can't understand what you are saying, so could you rephrase it?

And there is no point in pulling in Xenoverse into this. Because the game can do what it likes. Dragon Ball Z: Shin Budokai 2 shows a timeline for Future Trunks where Boo shows up and Future Trunks pulls in Goku and the others from the Z timeline. But nobody considers this to have happened.

SB2 is officially called a what-if, XV isn't. There is no reason to ignore it, and "it's just a game!" isn't an excuse.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

All that that could mean is he thought he needed at least the bare minimum above SSJ2 to take care of Bebi Vegeta. Not the full 100% of SSJ3.

And that would be stated, yet it never is, or even implied.

More than even still implies some level equality. So even if Goku's statement still stands it may be the case that they are barely even with Goku coming out on the losing end. And if so Bebi Vegeta can still only claim to have the greatest Saiya power when he truly goes past being more than even with Goku and actually be stronger than him.

It doesn't imply equality. At all. Not even a little. Vegeta-Baby is more than an even match for Goku, it's literally stated. Base Vegeta-Baby is > or >~ SS3 Goku, either way, he has the greatest existing Saiyan power, but doesn't get the greatest of Saiyan power until his transformation.

This is my bad, I don't recall this moment. It's been a while since I've read the manga. I thought the only shots of Cell Jr's we see were with Vegeta and then with them all standing there after Gohan transformed. The difference is pretty clear between Kuririn and the Cell Jr though. Not so much with Goku and Bebi Vegeta. Like I said, SSJ3 Goku had Super Bebi 2 sweating during their second fight and Super Bebi 2 was clearly having issues defending against his moves. So how is it that Super Bebi 2 >= SSJ3 Goku < Super Bebi 1?

He wasn't sweating, only Goku was. He lets Goku know that his power hasn't changed in the least, and then starts dominating saying he wants to have fun.

You think Vegeta is the only person who has been confident in his power despite being left behind in the dust by their opponent? What about Freeza against SSJ Goku? What about Cell against SSJ2 Gohan? What about Boohan against SSJ Vegetto? Bebi also was confident he could overtake Trunks the first time he attempted but then get chucked out because he overestimated the Saiya power.

Those points don't matter, since none of them are Baby. Baby hadn't sensed Super Saiyan Trunks at that point, so it'd make sense for him to underestimate Trunks since he didn't know what Trunks was capable of.

Not that any of that matters, since you'd need to prove Baby was just being cocky here. You can't just use a past example and apply it here. Baby's statement was never contradicted, and only proven.

[Hitiro]

I can say that the Boo arc takes place before Future Trunks' time. And it does.

No, it doesn't.

Yes it does? Trunks is a kid in the Boo arc. Future Trunks is a teenager. So it is perfectly fine for me to say the Boo arc takes place before what happens in Future Trunks' time.

The Chozenshuu #4 doesn't cover anything else apart from adding the what happens with the several Trunks Timelines. We don't get any reason to separate the GT timeline stuff from the Dragon Ball Z stuff so why separate it? If there were a reason to diverge the timeline like there was for Trunks then they would have included it probably. They also save on pages doing it this way.

Maybe my English are bad, but I can't understand what you are saying, so could you rephrase it?

Simply there is nothing stated to differentiate the timelines so why separate them? For the Trunks timelines we have reasons to separate them because different events cause them. If there was something to separate them then they would have included it on the timeline. So it is better to stick them on one timeline and save pages for now. They don't know where the timelines diverge. For the Trunks timeline it's obvious. Goku's death is the instigator. But for BoG and GT it may be anything leading up to BoG.

And there is no point in pulling in Xenoverse into this. Because the game can do what it likes. Dragon Ball Z: Shin Budokai 2 shows a timeline for Future Trunks where Boo shows up and Future Trunks pulls in Goku and the others from the Z timeline. But nobody considers this to have happened.

SB2 is officially called a what-if, XV isn't. There is no reason to ignore it, and "it's just a game!" isn't an excuse.

There is a reason to ignore it. They are taking artistic liberty with the story. You don't see people saying SSJ3 Future Trunks or SSJ3 Vegeta are cannon because they are in Dragon Ball Heroes.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Yes it does? Trunks is a kid in the Boo arc. Future Trunks is a teenager. So it is perfectly fine for me to say the Boo arc takes place before what happens in Future Trunks' time.

No, it doesn't. It doesn't work like that. Boo arc takes place before Future Trunks' time, but in a different timeline.

Simply there is nothing stated to differentiate the timelines so why separate them? For the Trunks timelines we have reasons to separate them because different events cause them. If there was something to separate them then they would have included it on the timeline. So it is better to stick them on one timeline and save pages for now. They don't know where the timelines diverge. For the Trunks timeline it's obvious. Goku's death is the instigator. But for BoG and GT it may be anything leading up to BoG.

The fact that there is no mention of them taking place in different timelines means that, as far as the guys that made this timeline are concerned, they take place in the same timeline.

There is a reason to ignore it. They are taking artistic liberty with the story. You don't see people saying SSJ3 Future Trunks or SSJ3 Vegeta are cannon because they are in Dragon Ball Heroes.

And Dragon Ball Heroes also shows what-if transformations, while DBXV has an original story that we have no reason to ignore.

[Bullza]

And Whis wouldn't help because he is neutral.

He's not that neutral, it was his own suggestion of rewinding time to save Earth which he didn't need to do. He loves the food there and was kind enough to train and help out Goku and Vegeta. If Goku asked him for some help I doubt he'd be a scumbag and tell him it's none of his concern and let them all rot.

Not necessarily. They didn't care about contradicting GT, but they didn't go ahead & said that GT didn't happen after BoG, or else we weren't have been told that BoG takes place before GT, and we wouldn't have a timeline with both of them in.

It's not really something that needs to be said, it's pretty clear they don't see GT as happening after the movies because they don't care about contradicting it. It was Toei who said the movie took place between Dragon ball Z and GT which it technically does because of the year it's set but it doesn't make it "canon" or anything.

He was excited, not concerned. And he wasn't even planning to transform until Rild transformed.

He was excited, not concerned. And he wasn't even planning to transform until Rild transformed.

It was a mixture of excitement and concern of which neither makes sense seeing as Majin Buu would be such a pathetic weakling in comparison to him that it may as well be Raditz.

No, the movie showed that this was Freeza's punishment at the moment.

That'd be a hell of an assumption. He was shown to be in the cocoon in hell, he comes back, dies again and finds himself in the cocoon once more. It's a stretch to believe that that just happened to be the current situation he was in at hell at that time and they just let him out by the time GT rolled around.

We have no idea what the official history is.

Dragon Ball Minus, Jaco manga, Dragon Ball manga, Yo Son Goku OVA, Battle of Gods and Resurrection F. It's simple. Dragon Ball GT isn't, even if it were to Toei it isn't to Toriyama and that's really all that matters. If he's publishing work without giving GT any thought and just contradicting more and more then there isn't even a point in trying to consider it part of the official history.

Hopefully Dragon Ball Super confirms this even more so.

Super Baby 1 says that he has obtained the greatest Saiya power ever, and he was the strongest current Saiyan before the transformation. Goku even says that this is the strongest ki he has ever felt, and that he really is the strongest in the universe. Which means that Super Baby 1 > everything before, including Super Vegetto, SSGSS Goku, SSGSS Vegeta, Golden Freeza, Beerus, even Whis.

For obvious reasons that statement would not include anyone from these new movies and it is because of that reason why it's its own separate history and why it says Super Vegito was stronger than Super Saiyan 4. Also Goku's comment might not have even included himself.

[Hitiro]

All that that could mean is he thought he needed at least the bare minimum above SSJ2 to take care of Bebi Vegeta. Not the full 100% of SSJ3.

And that would be stated, yet it never is, or even implied.

Why would it be stated? I would think from the shock that Goku couldn't damage Bebi Vegeta would imply it. Because if he thought he were superior to Bebi Vegeta, which he did before the first punch, he isn't going to throw a full powered punch all will-nilly and blow up Vegeta's head.

More than even still implies some level equality. So even if Goku's statement still stands it may be the case that they are barely even with Goku coming out on the losing end. And if so Bebi Vegeta can still only claim to have the greatest Saiya power when he truly goes past being more than even with Goku and actually be stronger than him.

It doesn't imply equality. At all. Not even a little. Vegeta-Baby is more than an even match for Goku, it's literally stated. Base Vegeta-Baby is > or >~ SS3 Goku, either way, he has the greatest existing Saiyan power, but doesn't get the greatest of Saiyan power until his transformation.

Every time I've seen the phrase "more than even" it has been detonated to have some sense of equality between the fighters. I've read several manga's and watched several animes in which the phrase has been coined and every one of them had fairly even fights. If I said "I'm more than an even match for the likes of you." that would generally mean I could handle you in some capacity but there isn't much of difference between us for me to say "I'm much stronger than the likes of you." It's like if SSJ3 Goku was a 10 and Super Bebi was an 11 or 12. Goku could exclaim that Super Bebi is more than an even match for him at SSJ3 because he not even with Goku. That doesn't change the fact that they would have a fairly even fight. With Super Bebi coming out on top. Until Super Bebi reaches 15 or higher (because I've always been under the belief that being 1.5x stronger than an opponent allows you to practically destroy them especially from Akira Toriyama's numbers on SSJGod Goku and Beerus) then Super Bebi can't really claim to have the strongest Saiya power outright. Goku would be on his heels even if he has the slight advantage. But by being a 15 there would be literally no comparison and nobody would be able to dispute his superiority.

This is my bad, I don't recall this moment. It's been a while since I've read the manga. I thought the only shots of Cell Jr's we see were with Vegeta and then with them all standing there after Gohan transformed. The difference is pretty clear between Kuririn and the Cell Jr though. Not so much with Goku and Bebi Vegeta. Like I said, SSJ3 Goku had Super Bebi 2 sweating during their second fight and Super Bebi 2 was clearly having issues defending against his moves. So how is it that Super Bebi 2 >= SSJ3 Goku < Super Bebi 1?

He wasn't sweating, only Goku was. He lets Goku know that his power hasn't changed in the least, and then starts dominating saying he wants to have fun.

Could have sworn he was sweating. He was gritting his teeth at least. There was a physical effort to hold off Goku's barrage. Where if he had become incredibly strong then there would be no reason for him to be gritting his teeth. He should be smiling or having a blank expression like Cell does.

You think Vegeta is the only person who has been confident in his power despite being left behind in the dust by their opponent? What about Freeza against SSJ Goku? What about Cell against SSJ2 Gohan? What about Boohan against SSJ Vegetto? Bebi also was confident he could overtake Trunks the first time he attempted but then get chucked out because he overestimated the Saiya power.

Those points don't matter, since none of them are Baby. Baby hadn't sensed Super Saiyan Trunks at that point, so it'd make sense for him to underestimate Trunks since he didn't know what Trunks was capable of.

Just because none of them are Bebi doesn't mean Bebi is exempt from doing the same thing. Pretty much all the major villians have done this. So I would argue that Bebi is more than likely going to follow suit.

Not that any of that matters, since you'd need to prove Baby was just being cocky here. You can't just use a past example and apply it here. Baby's statement was never contradicted, and only proven.

You're right, I can't prove that Bebi was being cocky here. But you can't exactly prove he wasn't either. Bebi's statement was hardly proven because the two of them didn't even have a fight worth showing how close or how far they are off from each other. Goku got in two attacks and reverted into his base form. At no point did Goku not think he could win with SSJ3. He only thought that it would be trouble after he couldn't maintain the form.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He's not that neutral, it was his own suggestion of rewinding time to save Earth which he didn't need to do. He loves the food there and was kind enough to train and help out Goku and Vegeta. If Goku asked him for some help I doubt he'd be a scumbag and tell him it's none of his concern and let them all rot.

Beerus did it. But even if he had agreed to help, would he be useful? Goku says that Super Baby 1 was the most powerful ki he had ever felt, and he kept getting massively stronger through 2 more transformations.

It's not really something that needs to be said, it's pretty clear they don't see GT as happening after the movies because they don't care about contradicting it. It was Toei who said the movie took place between Dragon ball Z and GT which it technically does because of the year it's set but it doesn't make it "canon" or anything.

The thing is, the BoG writers just don't care, while Shueisha, Toei, and Bandai Namco care to include BoG within the GT timeline so far.

That'd be a hell of an assumption. He was shown to be in the cocoon in hell, he comes back, dies again and finds himself in the cocoon once more. It's a stretch to believe that that just happened to be the current situation he was in at hell at that time and they just let him out by the time GT rolled around.

It's not an assumption, it's what I see. What I see when I gather everything from DBZ, M12, GT, and FnF is that there are different places in Hell, and various kinds of punishments.

Dragon Ball Minus, Jaco manga, Dragon Ball manga, Yo Son Goku OVA, Battle of Gods and Resurrection F. It's simple. Dragon Ball GT isn't, even if it were to Toei it isn't to Toriyama and that's really all that matters. If he's publishing work without giving GT any thought and just contradicting more and more then there isn't even a point in trying to consider it part of the official history.

Do you have a source stating this?

For obvious reasons that statement would not include anyone from these new movies and it is because of that reason why it's its own separate history and why it says Super Vegito was stronger than Super Saiyan 4. Also Goku's comment might not have even included himself.

Goku's comment? Maybe. But what about Baby's comment? He says that he has now, in his Super Baby 1 form, obtained the greatest Saiya power, even though he had already surpassed SS3 Goku (Goku admitted it himself), the (repeatedly stated) mightiest Saiyan, in his Vegeta-Baby form. Why would he say that he has obtained the greatest Saiya power when he already had that power if he doesn't mean that he has obtained the greatest Saiya power that existed in both present and past?

[Bullza]

Beerus did it. But even if he had agreed to help, would he be useful?

Beerus is a God of Destruction who threatens his own master. Whis seems like a nice enough guy, I can't imagine he'd just do nothing if his own student asked him for help.

Even if he wasnt physically strong enough to help, the time rewind ability gives them a huge upper hand. He could have stopped a lot of problems had he been there.

The thing is, the BoG writers just don't care, while Shueisha, Toei, and Bandai Namco care to include BoG within the GT timeline so far.

They only care because it's an extra product to sell. To Toriyama and the other writer the events of GT never happened in the official history (Toriyama's vision of the history) and that takes precedence over a press statement by Toei.

It's not an assumption, it's what I see. What I see when I gather everything from DBZ, M12, GT, and FnF is that there are different places in Hell, and various kinds of punishments.

These things have been shown in filler and other non canon work. Unless Toriyama gave us another depiction of Hell that was completely different and shows that people aren't automatically trapped in coccons upon death then it can only be an aassumption

Do you have a source stating this?

There doesn't need to be. Toriyama said he see's the other movies as taking place in another dimensional (aka non canon) and GT has been ignored by the writer himself and won't be taking it into consideration in the future.

We know Battle of Gods is not like many of the other products or they wouldn't have specifically have said it was part of the Official History. Resurrection F is a direct sequel which includes Jaco from Toriyama's Jaco manga and Dragon Ball Minus manga.

Episode of Bardock was said to be a what if story etc. It's perfectly clear what is canon and what isn't already.

Why would he say that he has obtained the greatest Saiya power when he already had that power if he doesn't mean that he has obtained the greatest Saiya power that existed in both present and past?

I have no idea on that. I don't take the guides statements so literal. I wouldn't really have a problem with him being superior to Super Vegito though it is a odd comment to claim superiority over a form that hasn't shown itself in 15 years in universe.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Beerus is a God of Destruction who threatens his own master. Whis seems like a nice enough guy, I can't imagine he'd just do nothing if his own student asked him for help.

Even if he wasnt physically strong enough to help, the time rewind ability gives them a huge upper hand. He could have stopped a lot of problems had he been there.

Whis is supposed to be neutral, because he is the Hakaishin's attendant. He may do some favors to Goku (like save the Earth in FnF), but that doesn't mean he would help them every time they ask. He wasn't needed any time in GT anyway, there was no moment his rewind ability was needed.

They only care because it's an extra product to sell. To Toriyama and the other writer the events of GT never happened in the official history (Toriyama's vision of the history) and that takes precedence over a press statement by Toei.

Their reason for stating this is irrelevant. Toriyama, or anyone, never said "GT never happened", they just ignore it and don't care if they'll contradict it so far. Toei stated that BoG happened before GT, Shueisha have BoG & GT in the same timeline, and Bandai Namco have BoG & GT in the same continuity in their latest game.

These things have been shown in filler and other non canon work. Unless Toriyama gave us another depiction of Hell that was completely different and shows that people aren't automatically trapped in coccons upon death then it can only be an aassumption

There is no non-canon work. We are talking about GT, so filler or not, it's irrelevant. In the GT continuity, where filler & possibly FnF happened, Hell is shown to have different areas & different punishments. Even if we go by FnF alone, you can't prove that the place Freeza was is how the whole Hell looks like, and you can't prove that everyone has the same punishment as Freeza.

There doesn't need to be. Toriyama said he see's the other movies as taking place in another dimensional (aka non canon) and GT has been ignored by the writer himself and won't be taking it into consideration in the future.

Another dimension doesn't mean non-canon, it means another dimension within the canon. XenoVerse explores this, we have the main dimension where the main story (manga, BoG, XV) take place, we see different dimensions where the 1st TV Special & M10place respectively, and we are told that the GT is an alternative timeline that is created because of Trunks' time-travels. GT isn't treated as non-canon, it's treated as an alternative timeline, most likely because Super will replace it.

Episode of Bardock was said to be a what if story etc. It's perfectly clear what is canon and what isn't already.

EoB & video games are a different case here, because unlike with the others, we are specifically told by official sourcies that these are what-if stories.

[Bullza]

Whis is supposed to be neutral, because he is the Hakaishin's attendant. He may do some favors to Goku (like save the Earth in FnF), but that doesn't mean he would help them every time they ask.

Whether he would decide to help or not doesn't really matter. He could have helped and yet he was never mentioned as a consideration or just in general at all despite the relationship they had with them.

Their reason for stating this is irrelevant. Toriyama, or anyone, never said "GT never happened", they just ignore it and don't care if they'll contradict it so far.

They don't need to say it. It's obvious that to him the events of GT didn't happen. That's why he's saying that after Battle of Gods Goku probably won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 anymore despite the fact he did so in GT. If he's ignoring it, contradicting it and possibly rewriting what happened post EoZ then he doesn't need to randomly state the obvious.

Toei stated that BoG happened before GT, Shueisha have BoG & GT in the same timeline, and Bandai Namco have BoG & GT in the same continuity in their latest game.

That doesn't mean it's canon. Toei said it took place between DBZ and DBGT, that is true whether GT was canon or not. If it's not considered canon to Toriyama then it really doesn't matter what Bandai Namco have to say.

Dragon Ball Online had it's own timeline, the game was worked on by Shueisha and Bandai Namco and Toriyama supposedly helped create the timeline for it which contradicts GT as well. Xenoverse also made by Bandai Namco has some of the same ideas like their being a Majin race which started with Buu.

That never happened in GT though because he became a part of Uub so he never created a Majin race.

There is no non-canon work. We are talking about GT, so filler or not, it's irrelevant.

GT is non canon so it's depiction of hell doesn't matter. The only canon version we've seen of Hell is the one from RoF and we have no idea whether the rest of the place looks any different or if it's inhabitants do anything but lie around in cocoon's non stop. It's also an assumption to say otherwise.

Another dimension doesn't mean non-canon, it means another dimension within the canon.

That's most likely just taking what he said too literally, it's a polite way of saying it didn't happen in his story. There was never any mention in the canon of their being other dimensions like that, other timelines and other universes but that's it. You could say the movies take place in another dimension, it wouldn't hurt. GT would be a part of this other dimension as well.

Neither are part of Toriyama's created dimension though and that's the canon dimension which I'm referring to where BoG/RoF happened and GT didn't.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'm done with this discussion. You are bringing up the terms "canon" & "non-canon", even though they mean nothing to the Dragon Ball franchise, because it doesn't have a defined canon. Even things like the movies are stated to take place in different dimensions, not that they are non-canon. It's been officially shown & stated that the movies take place in different dimensions, and that GT takes place in an alternative timeline that was created because of Future Trunks, and BoG takes place in this timeline as well.

[Bullza]

Whether they are canon in the technical way of it just being canon to a different dimesion and not apart of Toriyama's story on the "main" dimension is really another matter entirely.

However the events of Battle of Gods and Resurrection F did not happen in GT's timeline. Those movies follow the main timeline, they aren't part of alternate timelines like GT.